| A Guardian read for you all! 07:46 - Nov 18 with 9649 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Contains some good points and one liners....
'If you are the Democrats and all you have to counter this powerful vision is a lot of nice values and dancing “joy” but no material proposal to radically change people’s lives, you haven’t even brought a knife to a gunfight – you’ve brought Oprah Winfrey.'
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/18/donald-trump-victory-liber
'But the truth is that, all over the world, the old order is gone and the new one is bewildering. People feel trapped and want a sense of release, a promise of a dramatically different future, or just a future. Even if that sense of freedom comes vicariously from an autocrat who has flexed and snapped the chains of the system. And they want to feel as if they are part of something bigger and stronger as they get lonelier and weaker and their worlds fracture and atomise by the day.' |  |
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| A Guardian read for you all! on 09:59 - Nov 18 with 1715 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 09:53 - Nov 18 by WeWereZombies |
But will Trump say one thing but do another when it comes to trade barriers against China ? And has Starmer preempted him and stolen a march by setting up this meeting with Xi ?
Also do you mean that the United States economy is shrinking (and even under the worst of Trump policies I don't think it will) or that other countries are growing so as to make their economy less significant as a percentage of global trade ? [Post edited 18 Nov 2024 10:06]
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The evidence based on his last administration is that he will proceed with ramping up the trade war with not only China but also the EU. But I agree his policy and rhetoric flip flops, which is why big business was not behind a Trump win. Businesses favour stability- hence why they campaigned against brexit. It’s not possible to formulate business planning without having clarity around trade, regulation, and government policy.
The US will continue to grow, but US MN’s source an increasing amount of their revenue globally, so additional trade barriers is going to have a negative impact on that. |  | | |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 10:11 - Nov 18 with 1678 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 09:54 - Nov 18 by Pinewoodblue |
Big business in US gives financial support to both sides. |
Yes traditionally they favour the light-touch, low-tax approach of the Republicans. But Trump is a populist, and an unpredictable one, which has seen most of the US corporate world switch their support (if not overtly) to the Democrats. | | | |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 10:12 - Nov 18 with 1678 views | WeWereZombies |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 09:57 - Nov 18 by DinDjarin |
Irrelevant as Starmer will be gone soon.
The Southport cover up is coming home to roost. |
Well thanks for not engaging with the main thrust of the debate in this thread and bringing in some old news instead. ( https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/southport-murder-trial-axel-rudakuba ) The Southport stabbings were indeed terrible but a resolution to deal with the perpetrator under due process of law rather than vigilantism is vital. Sadly your postings never seem to reflect proper conduct. |  |
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| A Guardian read for you all! on 10:28 - Nov 18 with 1637 views | leitrimblue |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 09:57 - Nov 18 by DinDjarin |
Irrelevant as Starmer will be gone soon.
The Southport cover up is coming home to roost. |
'The Southport cover up is coming home to roost'. Intriguing, tell us more  |  | | |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 10:29 - Nov 18 with 1635 views | DinDjarin |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 10:12 - Nov 18 by WeWereZombies |
Well thanks for not engaging with the main thrust of the debate in this thread and bringing in some old news instead. ( https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/southport-murder-trial-axel-rudakuba ) The Southport stabbings were indeed terrible but a resolution to deal with the perpetrator under due process of law rather than vigilantism is vital. Sadly your postings never seem to reflect proper conduct. |
Yep that link is old news. Correct.
Do keep up. |  | | |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 10:40 - Nov 18 with 1617 views | WeWereZombies |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 10:29 - Nov 18 by DinDjarin |
Yep that link is old news. Correct.
Do keep up. |
There have been no significant developments in the story since, only extremists hopping from foot to foot and providing nothing new.
By the way, calling me out for not keeping up whilst you post a months old clip of Putin because you incorrectly alleged that he had made a response to Biden's ATACMS announcement is slightly amusing. | |
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| A Guardian read for you all! on 10:48 - Nov 18 with 1566 views | StokieBlue |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 09:57 - Nov 18 by DinDjarin |
Irrelevant as Starmer will be gone soon.
The Southport cover up is coming home to roost. |
Just want to point out for clarity that there is absolutely no pre-determined narrative here.
SB |  | | |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 11:44 - Nov 18 with 1493 views | bsw72 |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 09:24 - Nov 18 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Most big businesses are anti-trump. Firstly they value stability and predictability over marginal tax cut gains, and any financial benefit of tax cuts will be more than lost with Trump’s trade wars. |
No, they play both sides and rarely would you see Manhattan firms criticise candidates, they stay close to the advisors to understand what is in it for them. |  | | |
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| A Guardian read for you all! on 12:14 - Nov 18 with 1456 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 11:44 - Nov 18 by bsw72 |
No, they play both sides and rarely would you see Manhattan firms criticise candidates, they stay close to the advisors to understand what is in it for them. |
I’ve yet to come across any US businesses that are bullish on the incoming Trump administration - but in most cases they are not publicly critical for fear of backlash. | | | |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 12:45 - Nov 18 with 1418 views | Guthrum |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 09:21 - Nov 18 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Perhaps the Liberals just have to stop working for the same big business paymasters as Trump and co and actually offer some genuine left wing redistributive alternatives. |
Left-wing redistributive alternatives don't appeal to the aquisitive middle- and upper working classes, which are a large proportion of the electorate nowadays. They are too busy hoping to become millionaires by this time next year, Rodney. Or at least not having to give up any of their stuff. Just look at the wailing over the merest possibility of tax increases. |  |
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| A Guardian read for you all! on 12:52 - Nov 18 with 1399 views | redrickstuhaart |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 09:57 - Nov 18 by DinDjarin |
Irrelevant as Starmer will be gone soon.
The Southport cover up is coming home to roost. |
Gmpf. | | | |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 14:58 - Nov 18 with 1311 views | Ryorry |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 09:12 - Nov 18 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Instead of which Reeves is going to deregulate the finance sector and Starmer is cosying up to China because....well growth or something. Now how has that been going up to now? Not sure that more 'globalisation' is the answer to the global malaise. |
Personally, I think it's a good idea for KS to have gone to meet Xi Jinping. Better to get to know, understand & work with (within reasonable limits) some people.
Meanwhile, re T.rump's empire - lucky baldies amongst you, not having any more tresses to tear out -
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| A Guardian read for you all! on 16:42 - Nov 18 with 1240 views | DJR |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 14:58 - Nov 18 by Ryorry |
Personally, I think it's a good idea for KS to have gone to meet Xi Jinping. Better to get to know, understand & work with (within reasonable limits) some people.
Meanwhile, re T.rump's empire - lucky baldies amongst you, not having any more tresses to tear out -
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Interestingly, that is not Trump himself, and the World Service just pointed out that, in contrast to his son, another of Trump's picks thinks more help is needed to Ukraine to strengthen their hand in negotiations.
It seems evidence to me of Trump being content for his minions to sow chaos/threaten the worst, leaving him free to make whatever decision he thinks fit, and to blame Biden whatever happens.
It presumably also leaves the Russians rather wary because they can't be sure what he will do.
EDIT: I agree with what you say about meeting Xi. [Post edited 18 Nov 2024 17:15]
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| A Guardian read for you all! on 23:33 - Nov 18 with 1106 views | Europablue |
What sounds more authoritarian?
A country where they have actual free speech, or
a country where we have non-crime hate incidents? | | | |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 23:35 - Nov 18 with 1105 views | Europablue |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 08:39 - Nov 18 by Guthrum |
To summarise: The beneficiaries of the current system will lie to protect their position by promising easy solutions. Liberals need to develop their own even easier solution which will appeal to the electorate more and also, magically, actually work. This solution has to be so good and so realistic it can outmatch the marvellous lies of the other lot. Simple, really. |
Does is really matter who are at the top if they are exploiting the majority at the bottom?
It all feels like it is them saying "you've had your time, it's now our time to repress you!" | | | |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 23:38 - Nov 18 with 1101 views | Europablue |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 09:59 - Nov 18 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
The evidence based on his last administration is that he will proceed with ramping up the trade war with not only China but also the EU. But I agree his policy and rhetoric flip flops, which is why big business was not behind a Trump win. Businesses favour stability- hence why they campaigned against brexit. It’s not possible to formulate business planning without having clarity around trade, regulation, and government policy.
The US will continue to grow, but US MN’s source an increasing amount of their revenue globally, so additional trade barriers is going to have a negative impact on that. |
It does seem that people find the angle that suits them best. Big business is evil and exploitative but they are right to not like Brexit or Trump.
Alternately, big businesses profit from a lot of red tape because it prevents smaller business from competing and big businesses are very happy with the status quo.
Trump is a huge threat to the war mongers. War is very profitable and Trump is not a boon for that industry. | | | |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 23:46 - Nov 18 with 1093 views | Europablue |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 12:45 - Nov 18 by Guthrum |
Left-wing redistributive alternatives don't appeal to the aquisitive middle- and upper working classes, which are a large proportion of the electorate nowadays. They are too busy hoping to become millionaires by this time next year, Rodney. Or at least not having to give up any of their stuff. Just look at the wailing over the merest possibility of tax increases. |
Left-wing redistributive alternatives disincentivize wealth creation and innovation.
These alternatives don't even consider what wealth actually is. Just look at the farmers and inheritance tax. If a farmer has land worth 2 million pounds and makes a living of 60K a year, there is no way for them to pay off the inheritance tax without killing their income. | | | |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 23:51 - Nov 18 with 1092 views | Europablue |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 14:58 - Nov 18 by Ryorry |
Personally, I think it's a good idea for KS to have gone to meet Xi Jinping. Better to get to know, understand & work with (within reasonable limits) some people.
Meanwhile, re T.rump's empire - lucky baldies amongst you, not having any more tresses to tear out -
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It would have been better if we never engaged with China and built them up to be so powerful. We were so arrogant that we naturally believed that our way off life would triumph if we enriched them.
It's interesting that people will say that it totally acceptable to meet up with Xi Jinping, but criticized Trump for meeting Kim Jong Un, who is much less of a threat to us. | | | |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 07:55 - Nov 19 with 995 views | WeWereZombies |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 23:51 - Nov 18 by Europablue |
It would have been better if we never engaged with China and built them up to be so powerful. We were so arrogant that we naturally believed that our way off life would triumph if we enriched them.
It's interesting that people will say that it totally acceptable to meet up with Xi Jinping, but criticized Trump for meeting Kim Jong Un, who is much less of a threat to us. |
At the time that Richard Nixon, on the advice of Kissinger, made his fateful visit to China that nation was the most populous one on Earth. There was also a nadir in their relations with the Soviet Union, it was opportunistic from a Cold War point of view to make the move. It was because China was already powerful in numbers that the United States entered into rapprochement, market power would come later when China itself decided to change tack to exploit Western consumerism, but many felt then and still do feel that we were riding the tiger. Anyone who has a belief that a way of life will triumph seems to me to be unaware of the power of leviathans and, indeed, the nature of time and circumstance to confound all illusions of triumph.
Sorry to disagree with your postings this morning, I'm not convinced by that Guardian article either but at least I have read it and am willing to engage with it rather than go off on one in multiple posts. There again we all love a good ramble, don't we ? | |
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| A Guardian read for you all! on 08:17 - Nov 19 with 959 views | Churchman |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 16:42 - Nov 18 by DJR |
Interestingly, that is not Trump himself, and the World Service just pointed out that, in contrast to his son, another of Trump's picks thinks more help is needed to Ukraine to strengthen their hand in negotiations.
It seems evidence to me of Trump being content for his minions to sow chaos/threaten the worst, leaving him free to make whatever decision he thinks fit, and to blame Biden whatever happens.
It presumably also leaves the Russians rather wary because they can't be sure what he will do.
EDIT: I agree with what you say about meeting Xi. [Post edited 18 Nov 2024 17:15]
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A few (too many) thoughts.
I don’t think it should be forgotten that Trump is a simple man who arrives at simple solutions to complex problems. That’s why it’s easy for him to appoint unqualified people to important jobs. The odious Musk is successful - he must be successful in everything he does including a key govt job. Simple. And stupid. Yes, chaos works well for Trump.
But then Trump is a stupid man and maybe that’s part of his appeal. Most Americans think about one thing. Themselves and theirs. Their world is limited. Most don’t know what’s happening in the next county let alone state or country. Just watch their awful tv and read their huge but empty newspapers. I had an interesting discussion with one and his friends as to why customs confiscated his Bowie knife when he was on the way to London. He and all bar his wife was mystified and thought it was ‘them damn socialists’.
So simple promises from a simple man will always appeal not least because most won’t scrutinise them. Even the intelligent, wealthy ones will drill it down to ‘I don’t want socialists taking my money’.
Regarding globalisation, it isn’t going away. Trumps tariffs will be harmful to those who trade with America (they should only ever be used to prevent dumping) and long term catastrophic to the US. People view countries as entities. In policy areas they are, but that’s about it. US companies import from the U.K. stuff they need and can’t get anywhere else. It’s not charity.
Tariffs mean higher costs to American business. They are also hugely complex. If you say take a manufactured item produced in say Germany, it may have content from all over the world. A BMW isn’t just made in Stuttgart. Parts come from everywhere and to make those parts they may have travelled across borders many times as many products do. Work out the tariff on that Donald.
Regarding meeting Xi, Ryorry is right - leaders should meet leaders where they can and that includes KS. There was no policy decision to build up China. They are just able to satisfy demand with cheap, often poor quality, goods. They do it by investment and dirt cheap labour. We don’t do investment. We just do cuts, cuts and more cuts and don’t learn lessons. Labour? Well we are not about use people in the way China does thank goodness. Result: we suck in Chinese made stuff by the container ship load.
The way forward for the U.K.? Assuming I’m right and Putin doesn’t blow the world up, the first thing we need to do is strengthen our defences and stop relying on others so much. Economically, build infrastructure and build better political ties in Europe and across the world but promote free trade. Build public / private sector partnerships. Done right, they work. Not much, but it’s a start.
Facilitate business. Build better customs procedures (eg pipelines between countries) that allow small businesses to export. If the US doesn’t want that, they will in four years time. The U.K. economy is small compared to the US and China but not to anyone else.
Sorry for another rather badly ordered ramble, but the mind is on being financially ravaged by the Opticians in an hours time 😳. Thanks for posting the Guardian article BDS. |  | | |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 08:34 - Nov 19 with 942 views | NthQldITFC |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 12:45 - Nov 18 by Guthrum |
Left-wing redistributive alternatives don't appeal to the aquisitive middle- and upper working classes, which are a large proportion of the electorate nowadays. They are too busy hoping to become millionaires by this time next year, Rodney. Or at least not having to give up any of their stuff. Just look at the wailing over the merest possibility of tax increases. |
Sadly true, and looking inevitably like a terminal maladaptation in the evolution of the social species homo sapiens in the environment known as Earth. |  |
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| A Guardian read for you all! on 08:38 - Nov 19 with 933 views | GeoffSentence |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 10:28 - Nov 18 by leitrimblue |
'The Southport cover up is coming home to roost'. Intriguing, tell us more |
Nigel Farage has given an interview in which he says that there has been some form of cover up about the Southport riots.
He says he cannot be more specific or give more details since he has been told he cannot ask questions in parliament, parliamentary privilege does not apply and he does not want to prejudice the court case.
Elsewhere people have suggested that Merseyside police have been dishonest about matter of terrorism in the incident that led to the riots.
That's all I've seen. |  |
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| A Guardian read for you all! on 08:41 - Nov 19 with 930 views | NthQldITFC |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 23:46 - Nov 18 by Europablue |
Left-wing redistributive alternatives disincentivize wealth creation and innovation.
These alternatives don't even consider what wealth actually is. Just look at the farmers and inheritance tax. If a farmer has land worth 2 million pounds and makes a living of 60K a year, there is no way for them to pay off the inheritance tax without killing their income. |
'Wealth actually is' health and happiness for everybody and a stable, living, sustainable natural environment, NOT absurd piles of meaningless money for some, poverty for others and a dying planet.
(Not talking about farmers here, just the childish, over-heated, suicidal capitalist wet dream.) | |
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| A Guardian read for you all! on 09:33 - Nov 19 with 880 views | Europablue |
| A Guardian read for you all! on 07:55 - Nov 19 by WeWereZombies |
At the time that Richard Nixon, on the advice of Kissinger, made his fateful visit to China that nation was the most populous one on Earth. There was also a nadir in their relations with the Soviet Union, it was opportunistic from a Cold War point of view to make the move. It was because China was already powerful in numbers that the United States entered into rapprochement, market power would come later when China itself decided to change tack to exploit Western consumerism, but many felt then and still do feel that we were riding the tiger. Anyone who has a belief that a way of life will triumph seems to me to be unaware of the power of leviathans and, indeed, the nature of time and circumstance to confound all illusions of triumph.
Sorry to disagree with your postings this morning, I'm not convinced by that Guardian article either but at least I have read it and am willing to engage with it rather than go off on one in multiple posts. There again we all love a good ramble, don't we ? |
Disagree with what you like. I realize that it comes across that I have fired off a lot of comments when I posted after everyone went to bed. I did read some of the article, but I admit I couldn't take reading the whole thing. Frankly the discussion here and the intelligence shown in this forum is much more worthy of my time than that article.
The entire premise of the article is off. It is stating that Trump being elected signals that authoritarianism has taken over. It's just nonsense and lies being spouted by the people who feel like their power is fading.
You have to separate what Trump says to what he actually does. He says some stuff that anyone would agree is authoritarian like saying that Hillary should be locked up (but he didn't pursue that). Don't get me wrong, it is bad that he even said that and it is bad when the Democrats use lawfare too.
The main tenets of Trumpism appear to be:
support of the first amendment and support of the second amendment. That is the opposite of authoritarian;
adherence to the Constitution. All Trump picks for the Supreme Court are constitutionalists. Roe vs Wade was overturned because it was unconstitutional, not because they want to control women;
States' rights including allowing States to decide for themselves on issues like abortion, and support of the concept of reducing federal bureaucracy and red tape. The extent that they are doing this might be a mistake, but it just isn't authoritarian; and
ending US involvement in foreign wars. Again, this is the opposite of authoritarian.
Concerning China, I understand why our leaders fell into the trap. When I was a child, I used to believe in our way of life being evidently better because of the potential for freedom to create wealth and fulfillment, but now I realized that we don't have a culture or values. I might not like a lot of things about the CCP, but I have to admire how clear of a sense of self and purpose they have as a people. British barely know what their culture is anymore and we are afraid to be proud of our culture. My opinion on culture is that your culture either is the best it can be for you and your people, or it needs to be changed. | | | |
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I know - that's why I wrote T.rump *empire*!