| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window 07:45 - Jan 20 with 3051 views | nodge_blue |
A bit of a previous post repeat, but we don’t seem capable this season of spotting and buying players that are a significant upgrade on what we have.
Far too many 15 million pound lads looking 5 percent upgrades. And at the same time we are getting offered 350k for Edmundson who quite honestly would have done no worse than the other defenders yesterday. We are not getting our money back in full on quite a number of these lads if we go down cos other premiership clubs won’t be buying them. And that could be a problem.
I’m not so keen on this formation now either. We just don’t seem to be able to get play down the pitch. Maybe we need an extra centre mid in there. |  |
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| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 08:38 - Jan 20 with 2630 views | WeWereZombies |
So if we are not buying anyone...who should we get in on loan ? [Post edited 20 Jan 8:54]
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| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 08:47 - Jan 20 with 2596 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
I dont think our scouting is very sophisticated, we just pay top dollar for well known youngsters with potential.
We need some experience in the team.
I don't disagree with your point, as we probably don't have much profit in this seasons player trading overall. It all hangs on Delap. |  |
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| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 08:48 - Jan 20 with 2582 views | nodge_blue |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 08:38 - Jan 20 by WeWereZombies |
So if we are not buying anyone...who should we get in on loan ? [Post edited 20 Jan 8:54]
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Not sure if we aren't at max loans?
Im not down on any of the lads we are brought in, but hoovering up the top end championship players, when we already had a top championship squad, has only resulted in marginal improvements.
If we go down what players will other PL teams want? Delap, Davis and possibly O'shea.
The rest still have a lot to prove, which some may well still do. | |
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| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 09:05 - Jan 20 with 2456 views | WeWereZombies |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 08:48 - Jan 20 by nodge_blue |
Not sure if we aren't at max loans?
Im not down on any of the lads we are brought in, but hoovering up the top end championship players, when we already had a top championship squad, has only resulted in marginal improvements.
If we go down what players will other PL teams want? Delap, Davis and possibly O'shea.
The rest still have a lot to prove, which some may well still do. |
I was being a bit prissy in my first reply, going down the use of wording critique road to emphasize we do more than buy in.
More seriously, wherever the end of season positions direct us we will have twenty mainly youngish players who have scope for further development and some Premier League experience in their legs. Managers of other clubs can see potentialities there that we as supporters cannot
But the immediate problem is goals and enough forward play on our part to protect our defence from continuous attack with the inevitable buckling every so often and I would be prepared to sacrifice one of our current loans to bring in a proven Premier League (or similar) forward. | |
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| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 09:12 - Jan 20 with 2396 views | nodge_blue |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 09:05 - Jan 20 by WeWereZombies |
I was being a bit prissy in my first reply, going down the use of wording critique road to emphasize we do more than buy in.
More seriously, wherever the end of season positions direct us we will have twenty mainly youngish players who have scope for further development and some Premier League experience in their legs. Managers of other clubs can see potentialities there that we as supporters cannot
But the immediate problem is goals and enough forward play on our part to protect our defence from continuous attack with the inevitable buckling every so often and I would be prepared to sacrifice one of our current loans to bring in a proven Premier League (or similar) forward. |
In Delap we have a PL forward but as we only play one, what difference is it going to make if it's player X rather than Delap on the pitch?
The answer isn't that simple. It feels like about another 6 players need another 10 - 20 % upgrade to make a real fist of games and get that "enough forward play" which you rightly say we lack. | |
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| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 09:18 - Jan 20 with 2319 views | baxterbasics |
I'm inclined to agree. It seems bringing in an experienced *and* quality player is beyond the club at this point. Not a criticism of our staff or setup, it's just the reality of being a team that punched above it's weight to get to the PL and is now either priced out of what we need or those sorts of players don't want to come to a relegation prospect when they have other options. We need to make the best of what we have and if it's not enough this time around, so be it.
Also agree with your final exception, a CM would be helpful, but only if we can definitely improve on the options of Morsy/Cujuste/Phillips. |  |
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| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 09:43 - Jan 20 with 2195 views | Guthrum |
A few comments:
The new players may appear to only be a 5% upgrade, but that is at a much higher level than last season.
5% margins are also quite important. We need every improvement, every increment we can put together to match and beat the very similar teams around us. A 5% increase in points as things stand would (with a little rounding up) put us out of the relegation zone instead of in it.
We can't really be gauging our players against those of ManC, a club who have spent two decades in the Prem, backed by the effectively limitless wealth of a petro-state in a lax regulatory environment.
Should the worst happen, I don't think the market for our players will be as bad as you say. For a start, Delap is one of the most talked-about prospects in English football at the moment. Plenty of clubs, both those perenially at the lower end of the table and those coming up, will be prepared to take a chance on the likes of Davis or Hutchinson. Plus there will be the cushion of parachute payments.
Finally, the problem with introducing a third central midfielder is where else on the pitch to we take a player from? We already only have one up top and weakening the defence would be risky. [Post edited 20 Jan 9:46]
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| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 09:48 - Jan 20 with 2142 views | Bellevue_Blue |
I absolutely agree that the gulf in fees doesn't quite sit right but I think if we were to ever get relegated, you'd see how much of a significant upgrade most of these lot are. They just haven't quite stepped up or found real consistency at this level yet.
It's not exclusive to us, Summerville the Championships best player last year went for £30M and has 1 goal & 1 assist and has started just 7 games. Georginio Rutter another contender for the Championships best player just 6 goal contributions this year and has only started just over half their games.
I'm not sure the money argument really holds much weight, Philogene being the perfect example. Did nothing and his value increased. Clubs will always be interested in young British talent. |  | | |
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| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 09:49 - Jan 20 with 2129 views | BseaBlue |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 09:18 - Jan 20 by baxterbasics |
I'm inclined to agree. It seems bringing in an experienced *and* quality player is beyond the club at this point. Not a criticism of our staff or setup, it's just the reality of being a team that punched above it's weight to get to the PL and is now either priced out of what we need or those sorts of players don't want to come to a relegation prospect when they have other options. We need to make the best of what we have and if it's not enough this time around, so be it.
Also agree with your final exception, a CM would be helpful, but only if we can definitely improve on the options of Morsy/Cujuste/Phillips. |
Yes, we just don't seem to be in a position to be able to bring in the required experience, perhaps due to financial constraints RE wages.
One thing to mention though is that if we go down, these signings will almost certainly put us in a strong position to make a return. I know we might lose a couple but we'd have a young, exciting squad who would all have that extra year of development ahead of another return to the Prem. |  | | |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 09:52 - Jan 20 with 2110 views | Jrm_72 |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 09:18 - Jan 20 by baxterbasics |
I'm inclined to agree. It seems bringing in an experienced *and* quality player is beyond the club at this point. Not a criticism of our staff or setup, it's just the reality of being a team that punched above it's weight to get to the PL and is now either priced out of what we need or those sorts of players don't want to come to a relegation prospect when they have other options. We need to make the best of what we have and if it's not enough this time around, so be it.
Also agree with your final exception, a CM would be helpful, but only if we can definitely improve on the options of Morsy/Cujuste/Phillips. |
I was talking offline about this the other day re the types of players we can bring in.
Delap aside, our best ones have been from rummaging about in the Raggy Dolls Bin. We wouldn't have been able to sign the likes of Cajuste, Tuanzebe, B Williams (his start not end), Hirst, Broadhead when we did if they didn't all have fitness questionmarks over them. | | | |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 09:58 - Jan 20 with 2076 views | NeverSayDie |
Don’t disagree with what you are saying in terms of the effectiveness of our recruitment, though the way I see it, we need to make twice as many signings, rather than none 😂 as roughly half of the players we have signed have not had any positive impact on the squad, for one reason, or another. Some of those are free transfers and loan signings, so that won’t have a hugely negative impact, just wage and loan costs. If we aren’t capable of pinpointing players , we need to do a Notts Forest and chuck loads more smelly stuff and see what sticks (though that is now not really an option as I imagine there’s not enough room left from a PSR perspective). We will undoubtedly have lost money on some of the players we have signed, but that will have been offset to some degree, or maybe completely by the success of others, namely Delap, so again, there’s not a hugely negative impact financially.
As I said in a post or two yesterday and you and others have posted, we appear to have given virtually no regard to recruiting an older head with Prem experience to the side (save for one that I will discuss further down) the same way we had Aluko floating around the squad in lower leagues. If you are, say, Jack Clarke, you have had a really successful season in the Championship, but are struggling at this higher level and need a bit of help, who do you speak to? Who do we have that can put an arm round him and try and help him improve his game at the level, give him some pointers? Nobody, that’s who and it’s sorely missed, not just for Clarke, but all the young talent we’ve got and indeed the experienced players who haven’t featured in the Prem previously. A Matic etc type player would be absolutely invaluable to impart that sort of knowledge on the back of an extremely successful career at this level, these types command respect. It’s not just the experience they bring, but also leadership qualities, something else we sorely miss. Morsy has been wonderful in the lower leagues, but when your Captain is struggling on the pitch as much as everyone else and is new to this standard, he simply isn’t going to command the level of respect he might want, he’s more of a cheerleader, than inspirational force. McK was likely hoping that Phillips could be the man for all this, but let’s be honest, he’s one of the half that isn’t making a positive impact, he’s constantly injured and clearly has some mental health issues holding him back, he’s a shadow of his former self and not the man for the job I refer to.
Yes we have come a long way quickly, but I’m pretty sure we would have been planning as the Championship season progressed, maybe we just didn’t plan quite well enough, or execute well enough? We can change that; players are available of the ilk we need, just have to get the deals done. |  | | |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 10:15 - Jan 20 with 1993 views | Radlett_blue |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 08:48 - Jan 20 by nodge_blue |
Not sure if we aren't at max loans?
Im not down on any of the lads we are brought in, but hoovering up the top end championship players, when we already had a top championship squad, has only resulted in marginal improvements.
If we go down what players will other PL teams want? Delap, Davis and possibly O'shea.
The rest still have a lot to prove, which some may well still do. |
Yes, but we couldn't afford established Premier League players. We could alternatively have gone for experienced, slightly past their best PL players, but they are sometimes only motivated by the pay cheque & they have little resale value. We could have tried the foreign market as there is often more value there, but this is also risky & I doubt we have an overseas scouting network. |  |
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| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 10:26 - Jan 20 with 1930 views | TractorFrog |
It's a sad indictment on English football that a team can score 96 points in the championship, then spend £100 million on new players that predominantly force the old ones out of the team, and still not stay up.
Massimo Luongo started 37/46 games in the championship last season, and was one of the most consistent performers, in a team that scored 96 points and finished second in the championship. That is a player you would expect to do a decent job for a team mid-table in the league above. But instead he is now fifth-choice CM, nowhere near the starting eleven because Cajuste and Phillips have been brought in as clear upgrades, and yet the team is still in the relegation zone. Conor Chaplin has been our top scorer two years in a row and started 41(?) games in the same championship side, but now is probably below Hutchinson, Philogene and Szmodics (50+ million combined) in the pecking order, and still the team is in the relegation zone. Woolfenden and Burgess were a fantastic CB pairing in a team that scores 96 points in the championship, then are predominantly cast aside for the 20+ million pairing of O'Shea and Greaves, and still the team is in the relegation zone.
Personally, I think the league one and championship squad have in many cases performed better than the big money signings designed to replace them, but I am fully aware of my significant bias and rose-tinted spectacles in that regard. But effectively, Morsy, Davis and Hutchinson aside, our second-string eleven this season is good enough to finish second in the championship, but our best eleven might not be good enough to escape relegation from the Premier League. That is a stupid level of difference between the two leagues. |  |
| They'd all laugh at me if they knew what I was trying to do. To create a new strain of super-wine in half-an-hour with a fraction of nature's resources and a FOOL for an assistant. 'Bernard Black, he's mad,' they'd say, 'he's insane, he's dangerous.' Well I'll show them! I'll show them all! | | Poll: | Who should start in CM with Cajuste? |
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| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 10:30 - Jan 20 with 1911 views | Vaughan8 |
I'm not sure some are even upgrades at the moment. Obviously Delap and O'shea are.
Greaves looks like he could be, but right now he's not much, if at all, better than Burgess.
Clarke hasn't been great
Philogene - yet to be known.
I was thinking who would want our players if we went down and its probably just Delap, and maybe Hutchinson.
I can't believe we're going to get too many more in to be honest. This is what we've got. Probably need another striker in case Hirst gets crocked again. | | | |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 10:38 - Jan 20 with 1870 views | nodge_blue |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 09:58 - Jan 20 by NeverSayDie |
Don’t disagree with what you are saying in terms of the effectiveness of our recruitment, though the way I see it, we need to make twice as many signings, rather than none 😂 as roughly half of the players we have signed have not had any positive impact on the squad, for one reason, or another. Some of those are free transfers and loan signings, so that won’t have a hugely negative impact, just wage and loan costs. If we aren’t capable of pinpointing players , we need to do a Notts Forest and chuck loads more smelly stuff and see what sticks (though that is now not really an option as I imagine there’s not enough room left from a PSR perspective). We will undoubtedly have lost money on some of the players we have signed, but that will have been offset to some degree, or maybe completely by the success of others, namely Delap, so again, there’s not a hugely negative impact financially.
As I said in a post or two yesterday and you and others have posted, we appear to have given virtually no regard to recruiting an older head with Prem experience to the side (save for one that I will discuss further down) the same way we had Aluko floating around the squad in lower leagues. If you are, say, Jack Clarke, you have had a really successful season in the Championship, but are struggling at this higher level and need a bit of help, who do you speak to? Who do we have that can put an arm round him and try and help him improve his game at the level, give him some pointers? Nobody, that’s who and it’s sorely missed, not just for Clarke, but all the young talent we’ve got and indeed the experienced players who haven’t featured in the Prem previously. A Matic etc type player would be absolutely invaluable to impart that sort of knowledge on the back of an extremely successful career at this level, these types command respect. It’s not just the experience they bring, but also leadership qualities, something else we sorely miss. Morsy has been wonderful in the lower leagues, but when your Captain is struggling on the pitch as much as everyone else and is new to this standard, he simply isn’t going to command the level of respect he might want, he’s more of a cheerleader, than inspirational force. McK was likely hoping that Phillips could be the man for all this, but let’s be honest, he’s one of the half that isn’t making a positive impact, he’s constantly injured and clearly has some mental health issues holding him back, he’s a shadow of his former self and not the man for the job I refer to.
Yes we have come a long way quickly, but I’m pretty sure we would have been planning as the Championship season progressed, maybe we just didn’t plan quite well enough, or execute well enough? We can change that; players are available of the ilk we need, just have to get the deals done. |
I think im still abit haunted by our relegation winter window 20 years ago when we had a few come in like le pen and it didnt help. Im sure Ashton will know his sums but we cant bank as a relegated side on getting the fee for Delap that we would get if still in the prem. Theres alot of random factors that will come into play. | |
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| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 10:40 - Jan 20 with 1838 views | nodge_blue |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 09:48 - Jan 20 by Bellevue_Blue |
I absolutely agree that the gulf in fees doesn't quite sit right but I think if we were to ever get relegated, you'd see how much of a significant upgrade most of these lot are. They just haven't quite stepped up or found real consistency at this level yet.
It's not exclusive to us, Summerville the Championships best player last year went for £30M and has 1 goal & 1 assist and has started just 7 games. Georginio Rutter another contender for the Championships best player just 6 goal contributions this year and has only started just over half their games.
I'm not sure the money argument really holds much weight, Philogene being the perfect example. Did nothing and his value increased. Clubs will always be interested in young British talent. |
Your point about Summerville is a good one.
Im a tad disappointed with Hutchinson if im honest. He keeps losing the ball or playing a poor pass. Still love him though. Trouble is hes human and probably feels the pressure. | |
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| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 10:44 - Jan 20 with 1800 views | OldFart71 |
If it's the case that players we are bringing in aren't good enough then why are other teams looking at them ? Many clubs over the years have paid massive fees for players that don't show anywhere near their worth. It isn't always how much you pay as to what you get and how any player handles the step up to the Prem. A few seasons ago I know I amongst others were complaining that we were buying players who were just topping up their pensions and never gave their all to the team. Players some of whom were more interested in outside activities than what they did on the pitch. The players we have now I would definitely say most of them care. Whether good enough is another matter. But just scan the table and you will see both Saints and Leicester struggling as well. | | | |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 10:46 - Jan 20 with 1780 views | Len_Brennan |
Obviously more than just Delap will go if we are relegated, but imagine our current squad in the Championship now, or compared to last season.
If we were told that we would have Omari signed permanently, plus Szmodics, Jack Clarke & Philogene added full time as options for the 3 attacking roles, not to mention Ogbene. Then Jacob Greaves & Dara O'Shea in as our centre half pairing, again on full contracts.
The bookies would be paying out on promotion bets by Christmas.
All of them have strong resale value too.
If worst comes to the worst, we'll still be in a strong position to bounce back, personel wise & finance wise. [Post edited 20 Jan 10:47]
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| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 10:56 - Jan 20 with 1706 views | Bellevue_Blue |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 10:40 - Jan 20 by nodge_blue |
Your point about Summerville is a good one.
Im a tad disappointed with Hutchinson if im honest. He keeps losing the ball or playing a poor pass. Still love him though. Trouble is hes human and probably feels the pressure. |
Exactly, Hutch is just trying a little bit too hard at times. Delap also guilty of overplaying to try and create.
Think the Philogene signing will help them both as thats another player who can really carry us up the pitch. | | | |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 10:59 - Jan 20 with 1668 views | billlm |
Good post, reality of where we are |  | | |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 11:47 - Jan 20 with 1523 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 10:38 - Jan 20 by nodge_blue |
I think im still abit haunted by our relegation winter window 20 years ago when we had a few come in like le pen and it didnt help. Im sure Ashton will know his sums but we cant bank as a relegated side on getting the fee for Delap that we would get if still in the prem. Theres alot of random factors that will come into play. |
I don't think the window existed then?
We signed Marcus Bent in Nov, he did rather well. | |
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| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 12:02 - Jan 20 with 1458 views | BloomBlue |
I agree. When Broadhead has played this season, he's created space for himself causing teams problems, creating goals. Not trying to pick on Jack Clarke as I think his confidence is shot, but he was classed as one of the top 5 players in the Champ last season, certainly top 5 in attackers, but what has he added when compared with what Broadhead has offered.
I'm not expecting players to come in and immediately destroy the opposition, but we've spending £15m+ on various players and what we've got in return is comments like, 'he made one nice run', 'he looked good when he came on for the final 10 minutes (after the game was already lost)'
O'Shea has improved from his first few games but we're still getting caught out at the back, has he really added a huge improvement over Edmundson?
In some situations you can argue there is a slight upgrade but in the PL we need a few players to be a massive upgrade and with the exception of Delap, you could argue none of them have been massive upgrades. |  | | |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 12:04 - Jan 20 with 1427 views | CobboldCrusty |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 12:02 - Jan 20 by BloomBlue |
I agree. When Broadhead has played this season, he's created space for himself causing teams problems, creating goals. Not trying to pick on Jack Clarke as I think his confidence is shot, but he was classed as one of the top 5 players in the Champ last season, certainly top 5 in attackers, but what has he added when compared with what Broadhead has offered.
I'm not expecting players to come in and immediately destroy the opposition, but we've spending £15m+ on various players and what we've got in return is comments like, 'he made one nice run', 'he looked good when he came on for the final 10 minutes (after the game was already lost)'
O'Shea has improved from his first few games but we're still getting caught out at the back, has he really added a huge improvement over Edmundson?
In some situations you can argue there is a slight upgrade but in the PL we need a few players to be a massive upgrade and with the exception of Delap, you could argue none of them have been massive upgrades. |
I like Edmundson but I think it's plain to see O'Shea is an upgrade |  | | |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 12:40 - Jan 20 with 1316 views | BloomBlue |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 12:04 - Jan 20 by CobboldCrusty |
I like Edmundson but I think it's plain to see O'Shea is an upgrade |
I didn't say O'Shea isn't an upgrade, and it's not just O'Shea, my point was in the PL you require some new players to be a massive upgrade. And as an example I don't see O'Shea as a massive upgrade based on what I've seen on the pitch. | | | |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 13:23 - Jan 20 with 1191 views | southnorfolkblue |
| We shouldn’t buy any more players this window on 08:48 - Jan 20 by nodge_blue |
Not sure if we aren't at max loans?
Im not down on any of the lads we are brought in, but hoovering up the top end championship players, when we already had a top championship squad, has only resulted in marginal improvements.
If we go down what players will other PL teams want? Delap, Davis and possibly O'shea.
The rest still have a lot to prove, which some may well still do. |
We didn't have a top end Championship squad though - we struggled for depth as we saw in January last year. We won't be bringing on the likes of Harness or Jackson next season (no disrespect intended). Our squad next season will be light years ahead of the one that got us promoted | |
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