| No British citizenship for genuine refugees 12:17 - Feb 12 with 6460 views | DJR |
I am sure I am not alone in finding this troubling. Indeed, if the Tories did this, I am sure there'd be more outrage.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/11/uk-home-office-citizenship-refu
Perhaps like the Syrian applicants for refugee status currently held in limbo, the hope is they will eventually return to their homeland.
Or maybe the Government hopes it will discourage people, but I can't see that happening because those coming to our shores won't have any idea about our immigration system.
Another aspect I find distasteful is the continuing use of the concept of illegality in relation to people seeking asylum, as evidenced by this passage from the guidance.
"Any person applying for citizenship from 10 February 2025, who previously entered the UK illegally will normally be refused, regardless of the time that has passed since the illegal entry took place.”
Effectively, these people will be left in perpetual limbo (with employers probably reluctant to employ them), and might not even be able to leave the country because I am not sure how easy it is to get, say, an up-to date Iraqi passport if you are, say, a Kurd.
[Post edited 12 Feb 12:20]
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:37 - Feb 12 with 1947 views | bsw72 |
Trouble is I don't think people will understand what this means - and I am in no way defending this stance - for what it's worth, I do not like the term illegal when used in this context.`
For *my* understanding (which may be wrong) this is not referencing immigrants as a whole, but referencing any immigrant who has entered the country via a means which is deemed illegal - such as boat crossings, stowaways etc.
The sad thing in my opinion is that more often than not, those attempting these most dangerous of journeys are usually the most desperate (not always but generally).
It is without doubt an attempt to stem the flow of supporters to the Reform party. |  | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:37 - Feb 12 with 1941 views | nodge_blue |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:02 - Feb 12 by DJR |
The point I was trying to make, obviously badly, is that illegal immigration is a drop in the ocean in relation to legal immigration, but the two tend to be mixed up which colours the debate.
The only way to reduce net migration is to reduce legal immigration because (short of sinking them) it seems to be very difficult to stop people coming across on small boats.
And with the example of Jewish people fleeing Nazi Germany, I think penalising genuine refugees is not humane or in accordance with international law. [Post edited 12 Feb 15:05]
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No I understand your point that illegal immigration is relatively low compared to legal.
But rather than sinking the boats, doing something like saying if you enter the country illegally then be prepared to not get citizenship is a deterrent.
And if you need asylum then you should be asking for it at the first safe country you reach rather than its a pick and chose - and that is the internationally recognised law. And from there you can of course legally apply to come to the UK. |  |
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:45 - Feb 12 with 1911 views | Clapham_Junction |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:36 - Feb 12 by SaffronWaldenBlues |
You'd be surprised, a lot of Labour voters are still firmly head-first in the sand.
The fact Labour has instantly been more effective and hardline on immigration alone than the Tories shouldn't surprise anyone either, despite Kemi and co's pantomime screaming about boats and gangs, they are, and always have been, a massively pro-immigration party, not from the kindness perspective but exploitation, wage suppression and flooded labour markets are big money Tory donors bread and better and Kemi and co will be getting those immigration numbers back up hard and fast when Farage helps them to office in a few years time. [Post edited 12 Feb 15:38]
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Labour voters and "the left" are not the same thing though. Many people on the right (like Glassers) voted for them at the last election. |  | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:55 - Feb 12 with 1887 views | Kievthegreat |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:37 - Feb 12 by nodge_blue |
No I understand your point that illegal immigration is relatively low compared to legal.
But rather than sinking the boats, doing something like saying if you enter the country illegally then be prepared to not get citizenship is a deterrent.
And if you need asylum then you should be asking for it at the first safe country you reach rather than its a pick and chose - and that is the internationally recognised law. And from there you can of course legally apply to come to the UK. |
It's the UK government's position, but it's not internationally recognised law that you have to seek asylum in the first safe country. The UN conventions on refugees make zero mention of it.
The Dublin protocol mentions it, but in the context of not possibly travelling through multiple countries and raising multiple claims. Although it's irrelevant to the UK as were not part of the EU anymore and it's an EU mechanism that doesn't apply to third party nations. |  | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 16:00 - Feb 12 with 1872 views | DJR |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:37 - Feb 12 by nodge_blue |
No I understand your point that illegal immigration is relatively low compared to legal.
But rather than sinking the boats, doing something like saying if you enter the country illegally then be prepared to not get citizenship is a deterrent.
And if you need asylum then you should be asking for it at the first safe country you reach rather than its a pick and chose - and that is the internationally recognised law. And from there you can of course legally apply to come to the UK. |
This stuff is in Home Office guidance.
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Those seeking to come here won't be aware of it, and the smugglers certainly won't bring their attention to it, so I doubt it will make a blind bit of difference. [Post edited 12 Feb 16:01]
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 16:17 - Feb 12 with 1851 views | bluejacko |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 12:47 - Feb 12 by DJR |
There is no "legal" way for the people concerned but the following link states the following.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-is-it-illegal-to-cross-the-cha
Under existing British law, it’s illegal to enter the country without a visa or special permission. That means someone who reaches the UK on a small boat could face up to four years in prison.
But people who make the Channel crossing are protected by international law if they claim asylum once they arrive.
That means they can’t be punished while their application is being considered – and if they’re successful, they won’t be prosecuted for the way they arrived.
So, arriving by small boat is only illegal if you don’t claim asylum – or if you make an asylum claim and it’s rejected. |
How can you claim asylum if on the way across you ditch all your documents? How can we grant asylum if we have no idea who you are or where you come from? |  | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 16:21 - Feb 12 with 1834 views | DJR |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 16:17 - Feb 12 by bluejacko |
How can you claim asylum if on the way across you ditch all your documents? How can we grant asylum if we have no idea who you are or where you come from? |
I haven't read it but there is guidance about it (some sections are excluded as sensitive as I assume they might give the game away).
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ukvi-identity-standards-caseworker-gu [Post edited 12 Feb 16:56]
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 16:22 - Feb 12 with 1831 views | Blueschev |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 16:17 - Feb 12 by bluejacko |
How can you claim asylum if on the way across you ditch all your documents? How can we grant asylum if we have no idea who you are or where you come from? |
I'd imagine with tremendous difficulty to be honest. |  | | |
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 16:23 - Feb 12 with 1827 views | bluejacko |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 12:50 - Feb 12 by J2BLUE |
What happens if they are picked up at sea by British boats? Does that count as getting to Britain? |
Just because they are rescued by British boats doesn’t mean they have to brought here! It has already been done with a British boat returning them back to France.
We have all seen the videos of unsafe,overloaded boats leaving France with French coastguard boats looking on! Now if we can rescue them perhaps the French cooled do the same! | | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 16:57 - Feb 12 with 1753 views | Clapham_Junction |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:37 - Feb 12 by nodge_blue |
No I understand your point that illegal immigration is relatively low compared to legal.
But rather than sinking the boats, doing something like saying if you enter the country illegally then be prepared to not get citizenship is a deterrent.
And if you need asylum then you should be asking for it at the first safe country you reach rather than its a pick and chose - and that is the internationally recognised law. And from there you can of course legally apply to come to the UK. |
This is not the internationally recognised law, and it's depressing that this myth is repeated not only by the Tories and Reform.
https://fullfact.org/immigration/refugees-first-safe-country/
https://www.rescue.org/uk/article/why-dont-refugees-stay-first-country-they-reac | | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 17:02 - Feb 12 with 1733 views | Herbivore |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 16:23 - Feb 12 by bluejacko |
Just because they are rescued by British boats doesn’t mean they have to brought here! It has already been done with a British boat returning them back to France.
We have all seen the videos of unsafe,overloaded boats leaving France with French coastguard boats looking on! Now if we can rescue them perhaps the French cooled do the same! |
France already takes more asylum seekers than we do. It's not unreasonable for us to do our bit. |  |
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 17:06 - Feb 12 with 1716 views | nodge_blue |
Ok. I must admit i had never read first hand about that and just listened to sound bites. | |
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 17:37 - Feb 12 with 1660 views | Clapham_Junction |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 17:06 - Feb 12 by nodge_blue |
Ok. I must admit i had never read first hand about that and just listened to sound bites. |
And I think this demonstrates how challenging it is to have a proper debate about matters in the UK. It's the sound bites and headlines that grab people's attention, not the truth. This is exactly the kind of thing that led to Brexit and pushes public opinion in the direction that the bad faith actors that own much of the press want.
Plus you were willing to listen and admit you were wrong, which seems to be a rarity. As we've seen on here, a lot of people will stick to their guns no matter how much evidence is provided to show they are wrong. Somehow we need to stop these lies getting into the public discourse in the first place. [Post edited 12 Feb 17:38]
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 18:01 - Feb 12 with 1609 views | bluejacko |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 17:02 - Feb 12 by Herbivore |
France already takes more asylum seekers than we do. It's not unreasonable for us to do our bit. |
So no answer on how they prove they are actually asylum seekers then? | | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 18:03 - Feb 12 with 1605 views | Herbivore |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 18:01 - Feb 12 by bluejacko |
So no answer on how they prove they are actually asylum seekers then? |
There are ways of finding out where people are from without needing to see their passport. | |
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 19:47 - Feb 12 with 1500 views | J2BLUE |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:37 - Feb 12 by nodge_blue |
No I understand your point that illegal immigration is relatively low compared to legal.
But rather than sinking the boats, doing something like saying if you enter the country illegally then be prepared to not get citizenship is a deterrent.
And if you need asylum then you should be asking for it at the first safe country you reach rather than its a pick and chose - and that is the internationally recognised law. And from there you can of course legally apply to come to the UK. |
Very easy to say that as an island nation but global politics is about working together and compromising. We simply wouldn't get away with saying we're not taking anyone and they should all stay in other countries. Imagine if it was the other way around and another country said they should all stay in the UK... |  |
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 19:55 - Feb 12 with 1481 views | nodge_blue |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 19:47 - Feb 12 by J2BLUE |
Very easy to say that as an island nation but global politics is about working together and compromising. We simply wouldn't get away with saying we're not taking anyone and they should all stay in other countries. Imagine if it was the other way around and another country said they should all stay in the UK... |
I dont think anyone is suggesting we dont take asylum seekers at all. | |
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 20:28 - Feb 12 with 1420 views | DJR |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 18:01 - Feb 12 by bluejacko |
So no answer on how they prove they are actually asylum seekers then? |
If an asylum seeker can't prove who they are, I imagine they would struggle to successfully claim asylum.
It mustn't be forgotten that these people will likely have paid a small fortune to cross, so don't strike me as being hopeless when it comes to identifying themselves. | | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 04:42 - Feb 13 with 1271 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
It isn't "No British citizenship for genuine refugees", it is "If you entered the UK illegally then you won't later be able to claim citizenship, even if you are given refugee status."
The Government are desperate to end the sick trade in people smuggling which has ended in tragic loss of life so many times, both at sea and suffocating or freezing to death in lorries.
This is an attempt to make it less attractive for people to come by those routes.
It has to be worth a try. Anything to end this disgusting trade in human despair. | | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 08:36 - Feb 13 with 1211 views | Herbivore |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 04:42 - Feb 13 by ArnoldMoorhen |
It isn't "No British citizenship for genuine refugees", it is "If you entered the UK illegally then you won't later be able to claim citizenship, even if you are given refugee status."
The Government are desperate to end the sick trade in people smuggling which has ended in tragic loss of life so many times, both at sea and suffocating or freezing to death in lorries.
This is an attempt to make it less attractive for people to come by those routes.
It has to be worth a try. Anything to end this disgusting trade in human despair. |
But they aren't offering any alternative safe routes. | |
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 08:38 - Feb 13 with 1203 views | Swansea_Blue |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 04:42 - Feb 13 by ArnoldMoorhen |
It isn't "No British citizenship for genuine refugees", it is "If you entered the UK illegally then you won't later be able to claim citizenship, even if you are given refugee status."
The Government are desperate to end the sick trade in people smuggling which has ended in tragic loss of life so many times, both at sea and suffocating or freezing to death in lorries.
This is an attempt to make it less attractive for people to come by those routes.
It has to be worth a try. Anything to end this disgusting trade in human despair. |
There is of course a very simple answer to this supposedly impossible problem, rather than a performative, punitive gesture to try to win the Reform vote. |  |
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 09:23 - Feb 13 with 1145 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 08:38 - Feb 13 by Swansea_Blue |
There is of course a very simple answer to this supposedly impossible problem, rather than a performative, punitive gesture to try to win the Reform vote. |
Reverse Brexit and enact the Dublin Protocols?
Whilst I would love that to happen, that wasn't in the Manifesto. Ending the small boats people smuggling trade was.
I write as an internationalist who is hosting an Ukrainian family, has supported an Indian Christian family who were firebombed out of there home and business by Hindu Nationalists, and am currently supporting a Nigerian Mum and toddler who have experienced appalling abuse and violence.
But it is a multi-faceted problem. A complex issue. There aren't any easy solutions and Starmer is, I think, trying to take the majority with him and neutralise this as an issue by demonstrating that adults acting pragmatically can improve things.
He has already ended the Rwanda policy and decommissioned that Bibby barge/floating prison. To try and frame him as Farage lite is ridiculous. | | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 09:34 - Feb 13 with 1120 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 08:36 - Feb 13 by Herbivore |
But they aren't offering any alternative safe routes. |
There needs to be a European wide approach with proportionality of distribution.
Nobody should be travelling through safe countries, unsafely (in refrigerated lorries or across the Channel in dinghies) to claim refuge in a much more distant land. Neither should Turkey, Hungary, Italy or the Balkan States, or others who find themselves on the frontline, have to take the full burden.
It's disappointing that the EU haven't made this a priority, and brought non-EU neighbouring nations along with them. | | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 10:55 - Feb 13 with 1060 views | DJR |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 04:42 - Feb 13 by ArnoldMoorhen |
It isn't "No British citizenship for genuine refugees", it is "If you entered the UK illegally then you won't later be able to claim citizenship, even if you are given refugee status."
The Government are desperate to end the sick trade in people smuggling which has ended in tragic loss of life so many times, both at sea and suffocating or freezing to death in lorries.
This is an attempt to make it less attractive for people to come by those routes.
It has to be worth a try. Anything to end this disgusting trade in human despair. |
A few observations.
1. It was only in 2022 (as a result of the Nationality and Borders Act 2022) that the entering of the UK by small boat by an asylum seeker was made illegal.
2. That Act created two classes of asylum seekers, those arriving "legally" and those arriving by small boat or otherwise irregularly. Leaving aside the fact the scope for arriving legally is pretty limited, the Act introducing a two-tier asylum system. This gave less protection and support to those who arrive in the UK via irregular means.
3. The Law Society were concerned that penalising refugees who arrive in the UK via irregular means is incompatible with the Refugee Convention 1951.
4. Denying asylum seekers the right to British citizenship appears to be in clear breach of Article 34 of that Convention which is in the following terms.
"The Contracting States shall as far as possible facilitate the assimilation and
naturalization of refugees. They shall in particular make every effort to expedite naturalization proceedings and to reduce as far as possible the charges
and costs of such proceedings."
5. It is not clear to me that asylum seekers will be put off by this, not least because they will probably be completely unaware of it. Indeed, none of the punitive measures introduced in the last few years appears to have had any impact on channel crossings. [Post edited 13 Feb 10:56]
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:27 - Feb 13 with 949 views | Herbivore |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 09:34 - Feb 13 by ArnoldMoorhen |
There needs to be a European wide approach with proportionality of distribution.
Nobody should be travelling through safe countries, unsafely (in refrigerated lorries or across the Channel in dinghies) to claim refuge in a much more distant land. Neither should Turkey, Hungary, Italy or the Balkan States, or others who find themselves on the frontline, have to take the full burden.
It's disappointing that the EU haven't made this a priority, and brought non-EU neighbouring nations along with them. |
Ideally, the solution would involve beyond Europe and working more closely with countries that neighbour war torn areas, even working with countries recovering from conflict to ensure they become safe and stable enough for refugees to return one day. In the absence of that though, I don't see how in good conscience we can support denying rights to people who enter via irregular routes when we aren't offering them an alternative currently. | |
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