| So a woman is a biological female then…. 14:46 - Apr 16 with 23765 views | itfcjoe |
…I don’t dare look on social media for how this news has been taken by both sides of the debate.
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| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 19:34 - Apr 19 with 1475 views | Nutkins_Return |
| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 17:58 - Apr 19 by Herbivore |
You say it's a practical solution but it's not one that really respects either of the groups of people affected. It's basically lumping anyone who isn't "normal" into a single category and giving them a toilet to share. Disabled toilets are designed for disabled people, they are accessible and usually there's not a wait for disabled people to use them, rightly so given some disabilities may not make it easy or comfortable to have to wait to use the facilities.
Trans people are not disabled. They don't need accessible facilities. It's just reinforcing to them that they are not welcome in spaces for "normal" folks, and it also sends a similar message to people with disabilities too, that they fit into the category of "other". However well intentioned and seemingly pragmatic it may be, it's not a good solution. |
Ffs this is exactly the type of reaction I was saying when we need to be grown up about it. Of course trans people are not disabled. And that's why it wouldn't be a disabled toilet. It would be a multi use toilet.
Disabled toilets are designed to be usable by disabled people but are completely functional toilets for anybody. They exist and are almost always available.
It's really no more of a leap to understand a re-badging re-uaage of an available toilet then being courteous enough to accept a pronoun usage change. I'm not for one minute lumping them together as a category. I'm suggesting a new category of toilet itself. No longer a disabled toilet. A toilet available for any category of person. It's basically unisex. But if there is a separate male/women's toilet then out of courtesy we shouldn't use this new one.
Imagine it on a new build rather than an existing one and just be an existing one. It was never built as a disabled toilet anymore. Just one that caters for them. As I say for existing ones repurposed be an adult and see past the old designation.
The new ruling has passed. I my mind this is an easy and practical solution and much better than the issues that will arise otherwise. Realistically we won't have space/money for all new ones built so let's get on with things. There are much much worse things going on in the world! |  |
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| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 19:39 - Apr 19 with 1445 views | Herbivore |
| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 19:34 - Apr 19 by Nutkins_Return |
Ffs this is exactly the type of reaction I was saying when we need to be grown up about it. Of course trans people are not disabled. And that's why it wouldn't be a disabled toilet. It would be a multi use toilet.
Disabled toilets are designed to be usable by disabled people but are completely functional toilets for anybody. They exist and are almost always available.
It's really no more of a leap to understand a re-badging re-uaage of an available toilet then being courteous enough to accept a pronoun usage change. I'm not for one minute lumping them together as a category. I'm suggesting a new category of toilet itself. No longer a disabled toilet. A toilet available for any category of person. It's basically unisex. But if there is a separate male/women's toilet then out of courtesy we shouldn't use this new one.
Imagine it on a new build rather than an existing one and just be an existing one. It was never built as a disabled toilet anymore. Just one that caters for them. As I say for existing ones repurposed be an adult and see past the old designation.
The new ruling has passed. I my mind this is an easy and practical solution and much better than the issues that will arise otherwise. Realistically we won't have space/money for all new ones built so let's get on with things. There are much much worse things going on in the world! |
You could have tried thinking about the points I made rather than throwing your toys out of the pram. My response to you was not unreasonable. It's easy for someone who is able bodied and not trans to tell trans people and people with disabilities to be grown up about it but it's a bit more complex than that. |  |
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| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 20:52 - Apr 19 with 1365 views | DJR |
| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 19:39 - Apr 19 by Herbivore |
You could have tried thinking about the points I made rather than throwing your toys out of the pram. My response to you was not unreasonable. It's easy for someone who is able bodied and not trans to tell trans people and people with disabilities to be grown up about it but it's a bit more complex than that. |
Indeed, if the position were so easy, the EHRC would be bringing out its guidance now rather than before the summer. [Post edited 19 Apr 20:55]
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| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 23:16 - Apr 19 with 1296 views | Nutkins_Return |
| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 19:39 - Apr 19 by Herbivore |
You could have tried thinking about the points I made rather than throwing your toys out of the pram. My response to you was not unreasonable. It's easy for someone who is able bodied and not trans to tell trans people and people with disabilities to be grown up about it but it's a bit more complex than that. |
You didn't make any. This will annoy you more but I re-read twice. There was one point you made in two long paragraphs that wasn't saying something I didn't say. The only valid point was that in some situations disabled people can't wait but as you said yourself they are seldom in use. The reality is it would make such a small % change to that scenario as to be indistinguishable to a disabled person making the toilet in the first place. I'm not making light of that but it would have so little impact.
You instead started making reference to them 'not being disabled' etc and me lumping them in together which i was careful to articulate I wasn't. It would be a repositioning of a space that exists to solve a problem with minimal impact and we need to be adult to solve a genuine problem that exists.im sorry but we don't have the money or the spaces to have an ideal scenario of all new facilities (of course I would be in favour if that was remotely feasible which in some instances it might).
Post the ruling we can all argue different things but this is now the reality. So let's come up with a practical solution that will save embarrassment and humiliation and this would actually be a good one. It just needs some good will and adult conversation and for people to be mature enough to not keep arguing the same old things.
For goodness sake I dread to think what people in Ukraine and Gaza would make of our huge issues here!!! I do think we'll never resolve to people's satisfaction as there just isn't a willingness for compromise.
What is your solution? That is affordable and and achievable. If it's better fair enough. Completely fair enough!! [Post edited 19 Apr 23:30]
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| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 23:47 - Apr 19 with 1272 views | Herbivore |
| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 23:16 - Apr 19 by Nutkins_Return |
You didn't make any. This will annoy you more but I re-read twice. There was one point you made in two long paragraphs that wasn't saying something I didn't say. The only valid point was that in some situations disabled people can't wait but as you said yourself they are seldom in use. The reality is it would make such a small % change to that scenario as to be indistinguishable to a disabled person making the toilet in the first place. I'm not making light of that but it would have so little impact.
You instead started making reference to them 'not being disabled' etc and me lumping them in together which i was careful to articulate I wasn't. It would be a repositioning of a space that exists to solve a problem with minimal impact and we need to be adult to solve a genuine problem that exists.im sorry but we don't have the money or the spaces to have an ideal scenario of all new facilities (of course I would be in favour if that was remotely feasible which in some instances it might).
Post the ruling we can all argue different things but this is now the reality. So let's come up with a practical solution that will save embarrassment and humiliation and this would actually be a good one. It just needs some good will and adult conversation and for people to be mature enough to not keep arguing the same old things.
For goodness sake I dread to think what people in Ukraine and Gaza would make of our huge issues here!!! I do think we'll never resolve to people's satisfaction as there just isn't a willingness for compromise.
What is your solution? That is affordable and and achievable. If it's better fair enough. Completely fair enough!! [Post edited 19 Apr 23:30]
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My solution would involve at least some consultation with people who are disabled or trans rather than me telling them to be grown up and accept some compromise. That's for starters anyway. What you see as an ideal solution as someone who isn't disabled and isn't trans might seem great to you, but it might not to them. And these are minority groups that have had to do more than their fair share of compromising throughout their lives. I'm sure this will upset you and you'll give me a "FFS" or tell me I'm not making any points, and that's fine if it makes you feel better, I'm not bothered, but try and put yourself in other people's shoes for a minute maybe. | |
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| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 08:56 - Apr 20 with 1157 views | Nutkins_Return |
| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 23:47 - Apr 19 by Herbivore |
My solution would involve at least some consultation with people who are disabled or trans rather than me telling them to be grown up and accept some compromise. That's for starters anyway. What you see as an ideal solution as someone who isn't disabled and isn't trans might seem great to you, but it might not to them. And these are minority groups that have had to do more than their fair share of compromising throughout their lives. I'm sure this will upset you and you'll give me a "FFS" or tell me I'm not making any points, and that's fine if it makes you feel better, I'm not bothered, but try and put yourself in other people's shoes for a minute maybe. |
You haven't come up with a solution. Of course my solution would require consultation. Why wouldn't it. I said it would need adult conversation in the post. You love to tell people they don't listen or read points but that's what you do. I read yours and responded in it. I'm consistent in talking about the need for adult dialogue and compromise from all sides.
It doesn't upset me personally. It frustrates me that I think people prefer offence over resolution at times.
I don't think there is an 'ideal' solution so please stop putting words in my mouth (another theme). What I think is we need to move forward positively and find the 'best solution" possible.
I'm going to stop though because i can see it will get twisted into something that it isn't. it is a sensitive subject and I really hope we don't get horrible instances occur because everyone is too afraid to find solutions that might offend or not be perfect. | |
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| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 09:04 - Apr 20 with 1148 views | DJR |
A couple of interesting letters in the Guardian. Neither wanted their name or location to be shown.
I am a mother. A mother to a transgender daughter who is about to turn 18. My daughter has rightly been devastated about this ruling and what it means for her and her hopes for the future. She hoped that the gender recognition certificate would acknowledge her identity, but she now feels her dreams have been obliterated. I would like to ask the women who have campaigned for this ruling: how many transgender women do you know? How many have you spoken to? Have you thought about what this means to them?
My daughter does not want to be an athlete and compete in the Olympics or sit on a board in Scotland – she wants a normal life. A normal life is being able to drink fluids when you are at college. I’ve seen my daughter severely dehydrated, putting her health at risk, because she is too scared to go to the toilet.
My daughter is so brave to go out every day and face the staring, the remarks, the laughing. Transgender women already have so much to overcome. The protections stated in the Equality Act do not protect from the narrow-minded, the cruel and the heartless. On Wednesday, I was ashamed to be a woman.
I am a trans woman, I am pre-op but living full-time as a woman. I am on hormone-adjusting medication. I fought long and hard against the idea of transitioning until it became the only option for my sanity. My question is: who is most at risk, a woman when I use the ladies toilets, or me if I use the gents? This ruling and its ramifications scare me. [Post edited 20 Apr 9:06]
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| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 09:08 - Apr 20 with 1130 views | Herbivore |
| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 08:56 - Apr 20 by Nutkins_Return |
You haven't come up with a solution. Of course my solution would require consultation. Why wouldn't it. I said it would need adult conversation in the post. You love to tell people they don't listen or read points but that's what you do. I read yours and responded in it. I'm consistent in talking about the need for adult dialogue and compromise from all sides.
It doesn't upset me personally. It frustrates me that I think people prefer offence over resolution at times.
I don't think there is an 'ideal' solution so please stop putting words in my mouth (another theme). What I think is we need to move forward positively and find the 'best solution" possible.
I'm going to stop though because i can see it will get twisted into something that it isn't. it is a sensitive subject and I really hope we don't get horrible instances occur because everyone is too afraid to find solutions that might offend or not be perfect. |
Yeah, let's leave it there as you've gone off on one again and don't seem to want to genuinely engage. | |
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| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 09:56 - Apr 20 with 1066 views | Mullet |
I’ve been at the teaching conference in Liverpool this weekend and an emergency motion was put in about this decision.
It seems that either I misunderstood or underestimated quite a few things. There were some speeches from LGBT+ members (and one straight man in support) that quite frankly stunning.
Since the decision, a ripple effect of fear and uncertainty seems to have taken over as more issues and points come to light.
There’s an irony to the binary positions people are being forced into. But I think even if you don’t get the trans issue, don’t know a single trans person it’s important they are protected because they do exist. Trans kids exist. Marginalising them or worse outright persecution of trans people is no different to it happening to any other group.
Managing the lines is going to be an ongoing and difficult prospect for us all. |  |
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| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 10:09 - Apr 20 with 1030 views | itfcjoe |
| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 09:56 - Apr 20 by Mullet |
I’ve been at the teaching conference in Liverpool this weekend and an emergency motion was put in about this decision.
It seems that either I misunderstood or underestimated quite a few things. There were some speeches from LGBT+ members (and one straight man in support) that quite frankly stunning.
Since the decision, a ripple effect of fear and uncertainty seems to have taken over as more issues and points come to light.
There’s an irony to the binary positions people are being forced into. But I think even if you don’t get the trans issue, don’t know a single trans person it’s important they are protected because they do exist. Trans kids exist. Marginalising them or worse outright persecution of trans people is no different to it happening to any other group.
Managing the lines is going to be an ongoing and difficult prospect for us all. |
The problem is that there were already ‘lines’ that needed to be managed, but there was not an inch given by either side so any solution was only going to affirm one position.
Like anything it’s an impossible situation, but it hasn’t been helped from my biased view by the trans lobby and some of the ludicrous examples that have been so easy to find. I won’t name them because they are easy to find - gender fluid celebrities who openly state that they have periods as one gender and as the other, people with full beards who have GRCs, and just those who are still totally male to look at in that case.
That stuff is always going to be pushed back at, and imagine that there is an element of social contagion in this - lots of people who are now trans, would have had eating disorders when we were at school, or would have been goths….basically people who don’t know their place in the world whilst hormones are flying about and latch onto something, to be something.
There’s always been trans people, and generally they’ve just been people wanting to go about their business, presumably using whatever toilets they feel comfortable in without major issues in the main. The militancy has made their lives worse by people who have pushed up in a fight they couldn’t win and overplaying their hand because their echo chambers have been so out of touch with the public mood - Stonewall’s mantra of no debate and ‘trans women are women’ was never right - it didn’t differentiate betweeen someone who had been living as a woman for 20 years in every part of their life and those who have just got a GRC by fiddling it with an online Dr who is happy to give a gender dysphoria diagnosis because they are following scripts to get it done - they never were the same thing and couldn’t both be treated as such | |
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| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 10:14 - Apr 20 with 1009 views | Nutkins_Return |
| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 09:08 - Apr 20 by Herbivore |
Yeah, let's leave it there as you've gone off on one again and don't seem to want to genuinely engage. |
I haven't gone off on one. I did engage. As usual your propensity to be holier then thou wins the day. Unpleasantness packaged as virtue. [Post edited 20 Apr 13:09]
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| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 10:20 - Apr 20 with 997 views | Herbivore |
| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 10:14 - Apr 20 by Nutkins_Return |
I haven't gone off on one. I did engage. As usual your propensity to be holier then thou wins the day. Unpleasantness packaged as virtue. [Post edited 20 Apr 13:09]
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Your first reply to my entirely reasonable response to you started "FFS" which doesn't exactly show the spirit of engagement. You've been on the attack ever since, so to accuse me of unpleasantness is a bit rich to be honest. | |
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| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 10:33 - Apr 20 with 971 views | Mullet |
| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 10:09 - Apr 20 by itfcjoe |
The problem is that there were already ‘lines’ that needed to be managed, but there was not an inch given by either side so any solution was only going to affirm one position.
Like anything it’s an impossible situation, but it hasn’t been helped from my biased view by the trans lobby and some of the ludicrous examples that have been so easy to find. I won’t name them because they are easy to find - gender fluid celebrities who openly state that they have periods as one gender and as the other, people with full beards who have GRCs, and just those who are still totally male to look at in that case.
That stuff is always going to be pushed back at, and imagine that there is an element of social contagion in this - lots of people who are now trans, would have had eating disorders when we were at school, or would have been goths….basically people who don’t know their place in the world whilst hormones are flying about and latch onto something, to be something.
There’s always been trans people, and generally they’ve just been people wanting to go about their business, presumably using whatever toilets they feel comfortable in without major issues in the main. The militancy has made their lives worse by people who have pushed up in a fight they couldn’t win and overplaying their hand because their echo chambers have been so out of touch with the public mood - Stonewall’s mantra of no debate and ‘trans women are women’ was never right - it didn’t differentiate betweeen someone who had been living as a woman for 20 years in every part of their life and those who have just got a GRC by fiddling it with an online Dr who is happy to give a gender dysphoria diagnosis because they are following scripts to get it done - they never were the same thing and couldn’t both be treated as such |
I think the worry is that it’s going “those people are weird I don’t like it” to outright hate in a cumulative way. From a teaching perspective I think the fear of section 28 stuff is a real issue.
Whilst Labour seem to have upset teachers to varying degrees over their treatment of the poor vs the mega rich, if they don’t win the next election or they do so trying to take votes from the further and further right of the electorate, the trans community are a now very visible minority. Once hostility is legitimate, people will potentially move the needle more and more.
Progress is never linear, but the worry I guess is how much of a downturn this is for the country. | |
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| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 10:36 - Apr 20 with 961 views | lowhouseblue |
| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 10:09 - Apr 20 by itfcjoe |
The problem is that there were already ‘lines’ that needed to be managed, but there was not an inch given by either side so any solution was only going to affirm one position.
Like anything it’s an impossible situation, but it hasn’t been helped from my biased view by the trans lobby and some of the ludicrous examples that have been so easy to find. I won’t name them because they are easy to find - gender fluid celebrities who openly state that they have periods as one gender and as the other, people with full beards who have GRCs, and just those who are still totally male to look at in that case.
That stuff is always going to be pushed back at, and imagine that there is an element of social contagion in this - lots of people who are now trans, would have had eating disorders when we were at school, or would have been goths….basically people who don’t know their place in the world whilst hormones are flying about and latch onto something, to be something.
There’s always been trans people, and generally they’ve just been people wanting to go about their business, presumably using whatever toilets they feel comfortable in without major issues in the main. The militancy has made their lives worse by people who have pushed up in a fight they couldn’t win and overplaying their hand because their echo chambers have been so out of touch with the public mood - Stonewall’s mantra of no debate and ‘trans women are women’ was never right - it didn’t differentiate betweeen someone who had been living as a woman for 20 years in every part of their life and those who have just got a GRC by fiddling it with an online Dr who is happy to give a gender dysphoria diagnosis because they are following scripts to get it done - they never were the same thing and couldn’t both be treated as such |
the supreme court has put us in a much better place. we no longer have people interpreting the law in a way which forces others into positions that they know to be simply untrue. a trans woman is not the same as a biological woman and biology makes women a distinct group and directly shapes a significant part of their lives and experience. there are clear sex based rights which are protected in law. the law now recognises that and no reasonable person can challenge it being said. BUT trans people are a vulnerable group subject to abuse and disrespect. they are absolutely entitled to change gender as they wish. they are protected by law against discrimination and harassment. what the law requires is a careful balancing of rights and a recognition of vulnerabilities in each different circumstance. we need guidance now from the ehrc which is careful, balanced and humane. trans rights do not therefore extend to forcing others into articulating something that they know to be untrue, but do include full legal protection against any discrimination and harassment they face as trans people. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 11:44 - Apr 20 with 856 views | lowhouseblue |
| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 10:36 - Apr 20 by lowhouseblue |
the supreme court has put us in a much better place. we no longer have people interpreting the law in a way which forces others into positions that they know to be simply untrue. a trans woman is not the same as a biological woman and biology makes women a distinct group and directly shapes a significant part of their lives and experience. there are clear sex based rights which are protected in law. the law now recognises that and no reasonable person can challenge it being said. BUT trans people are a vulnerable group subject to abuse and disrespect. they are absolutely entitled to change gender as they wish. they are protected by law against discrimination and harassment. what the law requires is a careful balancing of rights and a recognition of vulnerabilities in each different circumstance. we need guidance now from the ehrc which is careful, balanced and humane. trans rights do not therefore extend to forcing others into articulating something that they know to be untrue, but do include full legal protection against any discrimination and harassment they face as trans people. |
usual down arrow. so what do you think to the sandie peggie case (which i guess is now as good as won)? should a female nurse be forced to share a changing room with an undressed biological male? is it ok for female nurses to be reduced to changing in a toilet cubicle for privacy? should someone who objects be subject to disciplinary action? the supreme court's only remit was to interpret the 2010 act, but recognising genuine hardship such as this ought to be part of anyone's response, surely? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 18:45 - Apr 20 with 709 views | NeedhamChris |
| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 11:44 - Apr 20 by lowhouseblue |
usual down arrow. so what do you think to the sandie peggie case (which i guess is now as good as won)? should a female nurse be forced to share a changing room with an undressed biological male? is it ok for female nurses to be reduced to changing in a toilet cubicle for privacy? should someone who objects be subject to disciplinary action? the supreme court's only remit was to interpret the 2010 act, but recognising genuine hardship such as this ought to be part of anyone's response, surely? |
In addition to the point you make (albeit expect you're wasting your time), there's a fair bit of misogyny going on here as well. I'm not going to tell a woman how they should feel about anything, but a lot of men appear to be quite happy to do so. | |
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| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 18:47 - Apr 20 with 708 views | Herbivore |
| So a woman is a biological female then…. on 18:45 - Apr 20 by NeedhamChris |
In addition to the point you make (albeit expect you're wasting your time), there's a fair bit of misogyny going on here as well. I'm not going to tell a woman how they should feel about anything, but a lot of men appear to be quite happy to do so. |
And in today's episode of stuff that hasn't happened....... | |
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