| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week 18:31 - May 30 with 12980 views | onceablue |
Slagging off Nigel Farage
Who are his PR Advisors?
I would be telling him not to even mention Farage. An election is at least 4 years away he should be concentrating on his party and his policies.
The speech he made at that factory is the sort of speech you make the week before an election
Everytime he mentions Farage it just strengthens the Reform Leader’s position
Reform is not the answer for this Country but Starmer is making this unlikely outcome a real possibility
Even the press have started to take the mickey out of Starmer
That
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 20:18 - Jun 2 with 718 views | flykickingbybgunn |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 20:05 - Jun 2 by Herbivore |
Labour have almost always been a disappointment to me so if I've voted for them it's tended to be reluctantly. Are you familiar with metaphor? |
Indeed. I once went to Carrow Road and had to sit with the Budgies. |  | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 07:49 - Jun 3 with 521 views | DJR |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 18:09 - Jun 2 by Herbivore |
Saying "everyone knows it" when people here clearly disagree with you is a bit weird. I fear you've fallen into the left wing mirror image of the Reform/alt right social media bubble. |
That strikes me as typical of the smears used against people who supported Corbyn, and in my view is not borne out by the Corbyn supporters I came across when secretary of my local Labour party during the Corbyn leadership.
Many were old, decent, idealistic lefties hoping for one last hurrah for policies that were mainstream when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s before Thatcher. And don't forget it was Harold MacMillan who in the early 80s warned Thatcher about privatisation in a speech where he talked about selling off the family silver.
As it is, my beliefs haven't really changed since the 1970s but the political centre of gravity has moved so far to the right that I would no doubt be regarded as hard left too, when in the 70s I was more in the centre right of the Labour Party.
I might add that I staunchly supported the nationalised utilities then but these days am not necessarily convinced that renationalisation would put Humpty Dumpty back together again, not least because many are basket cases and there is a complete loss of the idea of the public good in those industries and amongst their workforce.
Finally, it always strikes me as odd that those on the left criticise Corbyn supporters in such ways because I don't believe the supporters of Bernie Sanders and AOC get similar criticism from Democrats. [Post edited 3 Jun 8:14]
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 07:54 - Jun 3 with 511 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 20:02 - Jun 2 by flykickingbybgunn |
It was an undeserved majority because only 22% of those able to vote and only 33% of those that did vote wanted Labour.
If Starmer, his party and supporters do not learn from that they will not be there long.
The first past the post system worked when we had, in effect only two parties.
Now we have red, blue, green, purple, gold and tartan it fails completely to give a government that represents the opinions of the people. |
We've had all those parties for years and years. You're talking nonsense. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 07:58 - Jun 3 with 504 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 20:08 - Jun 2 by jasondozzell |
If Labour think their majority was deserved then they are finished. |
More nonsense from you. It happened, it didn't happen for any other party, therefore it was deserved. Elections aren't decided on subjective points like boxing, and there's no 'we played well so deserved to win' like football. It's cold hard votes and seats. Labour got the most, and it was a majority. If it was undeserved it wouldn't have happened. There's nothing more to be said. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 07:59 - Jun 3 with 499 views | DJR |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 07:54 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
We've had all those parties for years and years. You're talking nonsense. |
I don't think he is. | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:01 - Jun 3 with 489 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 07:59 - Jun 3 by DJR |
I don't think he is. |
You don't think we've had red, blue, green, purple, gold and tartan parties for years and years?! | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:04 - Jun 3 with 484 views | DJR |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:01 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You don't think we've had red, blue, green, purple, gold and tartan parties for years and years?! |
https://electoral-reform.org.uk/the-rise-of-multi-party-voting-at-uk-general-ele
The combined Labour and Conservative vote share of 57.4% was the lowest since Labour established themselves as the second largest party in UK politics, at the 1922 general election.
Another record high was the 27.1% of votes that went to parties or independent candidates who were not representing either Labour, the Conservatives, the Liberal Democrats (or their predecessors) or either of the Scottish and Welsh nationalist parties (Scottish National Party and Plaid Cymru). The previous high was 19.5% at the 2015 general election. In no other general election across the last hundred years was this figure above 10% and prior to the 1997 general election it was never above 4%.
Voters gave their support to a more diverse range of parties and independent candidates than ever before. [Post edited 3 Jun 8:07]
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:17 - Jun 3 with 468 views | Herbivore |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 07:49 - Jun 3 by DJR |
That strikes me as typical of the smears used against people who supported Corbyn, and in my view is not borne out by the Corbyn supporters I came across when secretary of my local Labour party during the Corbyn leadership.
Many were old, decent, idealistic lefties hoping for one last hurrah for policies that were mainstream when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s before Thatcher. And don't forget it was Harold MacMillan who in the early 80s warned Thatcher about privatisation in a speech where he talked about selling off the family silver.
As it is, my beliefs haven't really changed since the 1970s but the political centre of gravity has moved so far to the right that I would no doubt be regarded as hard left too, when in the 70s I was more in the centre right of the Labour Party.
I might add that I staunchly supported the nationalised utilities then but these days am not necessarily convinced that renationalisation would put Humpty Dumpty back together again, not least because many are basket cases and there is a complete loss of the idea of the public good in those industries and amongst their workforce.
Finally, it always strikes me as odd that those on the left criticise Corbyn supporters in such ways because I don't believe the supporters of Bernie Sanders and AOC get similar criticism from Democrats. [Post edited 3 Jun 8:14]
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I don't think it's necessarily true of all those who supported Corbyn but I think it is true of this particular poster given some of the OTT rhetoric they have been using. It's very social media echo chamber stuff, I've seen it doing the rounds.
For what it's worth, the only time I've voted Labour was when Corbyn was leader but I wouldn't consider myself a fan of him so much as his pushing of left of centre policies. First time in my adult life that any party has put forward a left of centre agenda. But Corbyn himself was pretty deeply flawed as a leader and his downfall, while contributed to by people from within and without his own party, was also in large part down to his flaws. |  |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:19 - Jun 3 with 462 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:04 - Jun 3 by DJR |
https://electoral-reform.org.uk/the-rise-of-multi-party-voting-at-uk-general-ele
The combined Labour and Conservative vote share of 57.4% was the lowest since Labour established themselves as the second largest party in UK politics, at the 1922 general election.
Another record high was the 27.1% of votes that went to parties or independent candidates who were not representing either Labour, the Conservatives, the Liberal Democrats (or their predecessors) or either of the Scottish and Welsh nationalist parties (Scottish National Party and Plaid Cymru). The previous high was 19.5% at the 2015 general election. In no other general election across the last hundred years was this figure above 10% and prior to the 1997 general election it was never above 4%.
Voters gave their support to a more diverse range of parties and independent candidates than ever before. [Post edited 3 Jun 8:07]
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You didn't answer my question.
So the percentage of people voting for the smaller parties is higher, so what? That doesn't mean Labour didn't deserve to win by a majority. Those people were perfectly free to stop Labour by voting for who was most likely to challenge them in their area. They didn't. 182 Tory seats were gained by Labour. People had had enough of the Tories, thousands upon thousands voted to get rid of them. Whether Farage and Reform were there or not.
I'm not really sure what "deserved" means anyway, in terms of elections. The party with the most votes/seats deserves to win. That's it, end of story. I'm sure the government couldn't care less if some people think they deserved it or not. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:28 - Jun 3 with 450 views | Herbivore |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:19 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You didn't answer my question.
So the percentage of people voting for the smaller parties is higher, so what? That doesn't mean Labour didn't deserve to win by a majority. Those people were perfectly free to stop Labour by voting for who was most likely to challenge them in their area. They didn't. 182 Tory seats were gained by Labour. People had had enough of the Tories, thousands upon thousands voted to get rid of them. Whether Farage and Reform were there or not.
I'm not really sure what "deserved" means anyway, in terms of elections. The party with the most votes/seats deserves to win. That's it, end of story. I'm sure the government couldn't care less if some people think they deserved it or not. |
The issue for Labour is that FPTP meant they were able to win a whacking great majority in terms of seats, but in terms of the number of votes they received and their share of the vote, it was anything but a whacking great majority. That means there's a lot of seats they've won by not many votes and it won't take much of a swing at all to completely erase their majority. The Tories had a much larger vote share than Labour in 2019 and saw their majority overturned drastically. My hope is that Labour are less of a sh!t show but they haven't made a great start and their majority is rather built on sand so they can't afford to leak too much support and still hope to win a second term. | |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:32 - Jun 3 with 426 views | DJR |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:19 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You didn't answer my question.
So the percentage of people voting for the smaller parties is higher, so what? That doesn't mean Labour didn't deserve to win by a majority. Those people were perfectly free to stop Labour by voting for who was most likely to challenge them in their area. They didn't. 182 Tory seats were gained by Labour. People had had enough of the Tories, thousands upon thousands voted to get rid of them. Whether Farage and Reform were there or not.
I'm not really sure what "deserved" means anyway, in terms of elections. The party with the most votes/seats deserves to win. That's it, end of story. I'm sure the government couldn't care less if some people think they deserved it or not. |
I was focusing on this part of the post that you said was nonsense.
"The first past the post system worked when we had, in effect only two parties.
Now we have red, blue, green, purple, gold and tartan it fails completely to give a government that represents the opinions of the people."
But yes, I think there is something wrong with a system where a party can get such a stonking majority on only 33.7% of the vote. Of course, we can argue whether "undeserved" is the right adjective but it doesn't change the underlying point. | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:37 - Jun 3 with 406 views | jasondozzell |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:17 - Jun 3 by Herbivore |
I don't think it's necessarily true of all those who supported Corbyn but I think it is true of this particular poster given some of the OTT rhetoric they have been using. It's very social media echo chamber stuff, I've seen it doing the rounds.
For what it's worth, the only time I've voted Labour was when Corbyn was leader but I wouldn't consider myself a fan of him so much as his pushing of left of centre policies. First time in my adult life that any party has put forward a left of centre agenda. But Corbyn himself was pretty deeply flawed as a leader and his downfall, while contributed to by people from within and without his own party, was also in large part down to his flaws. |
What have I said that's OTT? |  | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:39 - Jun 3 with 389 views | itfcjoe |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:04 - Jun 3 by DJR |
https://electoral-reform.org.uk/the-rise-of-multi-party-voting-at-uk-general-ele
The combined Labour and Conservative vote share of 57.4% was the lowest since Labour established themselves as the second largest party in UK politics, at the 1922 general election.
Another record high was the 27.1% of votes that went to parties or independent candidates who were not representing either Labour, the Conservatives, the Liberal Democrats (or their predecessors) or either of the Scottish and Welsh nationalist parties (Scottish National Party and Plaid Cymru). The previous high was 19.5% at the 2015 general election. In no other general election across the last hundred years was this figure above 10% and prior to the 1997 general election it was never above 4%.
Voters gave their support to a more diverse range of parties and independent candidates than ever before. [Post edited 3 Jun 8:07]
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But part of that because the polls had Labour so far ahead that it led to apathy in the getting people out to vote effort - or the opportunity to vote for a party that in a closer election people wouldn't have risked, plus far more tactical voting and vote swapping between the reds and the yellows where they were strong etc. |  |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:41 - Jun 3 with 386 views | jasondozzell |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 07:58 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
More nonsense from you. It happened, it didn't happen for any other party, therefore it was deserved. Elections aren't decided on subjective points like boxing, and there's no 'we played well so deserved to win' like football. It's cold hard votes and seats. Labour got the most, and it was a majority. If it was undeserved it wouldn't have happened. There's nothing more to be said. |
They got fewer cold hard votes than Corbyn in 2019 which was presumably a cold hard electoral disaster?
And if it the majority was deserved, presumably losing it would be deserved too? So do they deserve the local results they've just had and the polling which now shows them to have an approval rate of 12%?
And if they deserve those, what's your anslysis of their performance in government ? | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:45 - Jun 3 with 373 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:28 - Jun 3 by Herbivore |
The issue for Labour is that FPTP meant they were able to win a whacking great majority in terms of seats, but in terms of the number of votes they received and their share of the vote, it was anything but a whacking great majority. That means there's a lot of seats they've won by not many votes and it won't take much of a swing at all to completely erase their majority. The Tories had a much larger vote share than Labour in 2019 and saw their majority overturned drastically. My hope is that Labour are less of a sh!t show but they haven't made a great start and their majority is rather built on sand so they can't afford to leak too much support and still hope to win a second term. |
I get all that. I disagree that they haven't made a great start, but that's another story. Labour will be nowhere near the sh!t show the Tories were, but they certainly shouldn't be complacent either (and I'm not sure anyone's suggesting they are or will be). Reform may have split the right wing vote but I still don't see them doing enough to win outright. The Tories might elect a new leader and get their act together by the next election - if Farage and Reform are still doing their thing by then, surely the result will be the same, a split right-wing vote?
But anyway, we've veered away from the discussion which was Farage destroyed the Tories, which I think you agree with me is giving him way more credit than he deserves. The main destroyer of the Tories was their lies, corruption and ineptitude catching up with them. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:46 - Jun 3 with 372 views | DJR |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:37 - Jun 3 by jasondozzell |
What have I said that's OTT? |
That's what I was wondering. Indeed, I think you got a rather lot of stick for what seemed to me to be fairly reasonable comments about the huge influence of Farage on British politics. | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:47 - Jun 3 with 371 views | Herbivore |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:37 - Jun 3 by jasondozzell |
What have I said that's OTT? |
What haven't you said that's OTT? | |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:47 - Jun 3 with 369 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:37 - Jun 3 by jasondozzell |
What have I said that's OTT? |
Everything in relation to Farage. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:55 - Jun 3 with 352 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:41 - Jun 3 by jasondozzell |
They got fewer cold hard votes than Corbyn in 2019 which was presumably a cold hard electoral disaster?
And if it the majority was deserved, presumably losing it would be deserved too? So do they deserve the local results they've just had and the polling which now shows them to have an approval rate of 12%?
And if they deserve those, what's your anslysis of their performance in government ? |
We're not discussing Corbyn in 2019. We're not discussing Earl Grey leading The Whigs in 1832 either. And we're also not discussing local elections, which have loads more caveats attached.
You're getting more and more desperate with every post. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:58 - Jun 3 with 334 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:46 - Jun 3 by DJR |
That's what I was wondering. Indeed, I think you got a rather lot of stick for what seemed to me to be fairly reasonable comments about the huge influence of Farage on British politics. |
No-one disagreed he's had a huge influence. jasondozzell started off stating he destroyed the Tories. That's what many of us think is OTT and not a reasonable comment.
It seems like jasondozzell dishonestly tweaking and softening his view with every post has successfully hoodwinked you. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:59 - Jun 3 with 323 views | DJR |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:39 - Jun 3 by itfcjoe |
But part of that because the polls had Labour so far ahead that it led to apathy in the getting people out to vote effort - or the opportunity to vote for a party that in a closer election people wouldn't have risked, plus far more tactical voting and vote swapping between the reds and the yellows where they were strong etc. |
That is true to an extent but the drop in support for the two main parties is indicative of the fact that many people are no longer staunch supporters of either party.
When it comes to Labour, a Ming vase election strategy in my view only reinforced this because Labour's only real selling point was that they weren't the Tories. Couple that with an uninspiring leader, and it didn't augur well for the inevitable difficulties that arise when in government. | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 09:11 - Jun 3 with 303 views | DJR |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:58 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
No-one disagreed he's had a huge influence. jasondozzell started off stating he destroyed the Tories. That's what many of us think is OTT and not a reasonable comment.
It seems like jasondozzell dishonestly tweaking and softening his view with every post has successfully hoodwinked you. |
I am not the sort of person who gets hoodwinked.
The fact that someone takes a different view to you or others on this thread doesn't mean they are OTT.
That's the issue for me these days, namely, that people end up making personal attacks on people for their views, rather than challenging their views. | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 09:12 - Jun 3 with 300 views | Herbivore |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 09:11 - Jun 3 by DJR |
I am not the sort of person who gets hoodwinked.
The fact that someone takes a different view to you or others on this thread doesn't mean they are OTT.
That's the issue for me these days, namely, that people end up making personal attacks on people for their views, rather than challenging their views. |
I challenged his views. He ignored my points and pivoted to slightly different positions to try and evade them. | |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 09:45 - Jun 3 with 233 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 09:11 - Jun 3 by DJR |
I am not the sort of person who gets hoodwinked.
The fact that someone takes a different view to you or others on this thread doesn't mean they are OTT.
That's the issue for me these days, namely, that people end up making personal attacks on people for their views, rather than challenging their views. |
Where have I made personal attacks? Have you actually read the thread? I've consistently challenged their views and provided evidence for mine.
You've referred, above, to jd saying Farage has had a huge influence on British politics... but that's a straw man. No-one's disagreed with that.
Farage single-handedly destroying the Tories, which is where jd sarted out, is clearly OTT. There are many other factors which people have listed and provided evidence for. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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