| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week 18:31 - May 30 with 9961 views | onceablue |
Slagging off Nigel Farage
Who are his PR Advisors?
I would be telling him not to even mention Farage. An election is at least 4 years away he should be concentrating on his party and his policies.
The speech he made at that factory is the sort of speech you make the week before an election
Everytime he mentions Farage it just strengthens the Reform Leader’s position
Reform is not the answer for this Country but Starmer is making this unlikely outcome a real possibility
Even the press have started to take the mickey out of Starmer
That
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 17:16 - Jun 1 with 762 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 15:51 - Jun 1 by StokieBlue |
The fact that Vance, Trump and Farage are pushing crypto so heavily should give people pause on the subject.
SB [Post edited 1 Jun 15:53]
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I always have the stopped clock theory in the back of my mind, but yes that’s exactly what puts me off. I’m sure these grifters will do very well out of it themselves, but the rest of us not so much. |  |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 17:17 - Jun 1 with 761 views | StokieBlue |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 17:08 - Jun 1 by flykickingbybgunn |
Your third para summed it up well for me.
Trump and Farage are not the problem. They are the symptom of an electorate that thinks they are not being listened to by those in power.
Hence they act in desperation to try to take back control. |
Is it true though?
Reform supporting posters on here have been asked for specific policies they support numerous times and they are yet to provide any.
If they don't know the policies of Reform then how do they know Reform are listening to them?
I think saying they aren't being listened to and that is why they support Reform is an easy way to hand-wave away supporting some rather nasty views.
SB [Post edited 1 Jun 17:19]
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 17:26 - Jun 1 with 715 views | jasondozzell |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 17:08 - Jun 1 by flykickingbybgunn |
Your third para summed it up well for me.
Trump and Farage are not the problem. They are the symptom of an electorate that thinks they are not being listened to by those in power.
Hence they act in desperation to try to take back control. |
Completely this.
And it's the biggest lesson from Brexit that still hasn't been learned it seems.
There's real anger and despair amongst the electorate and it's being ignored or totally misinterpreted by a political elite that is totally out of touch.
I've mentioned it before, but the article I read in 2016 that talked about the southern mining town never before visited by a presidential nominee that Trump came to for a rally really stuck in the mind. Real righteous anger.
Brexit was really revealing imo too. I voted remain but I then found myself astonished at the reaction from middle class remainers, many of the professional/managerial class who couldn't accept losing. Presumably because they never usually lost. The remaniac podcast/people's vote/b***ocks to Brexit brigade was really eye opening. They lost their minds over that but shuddered at the idea of mild democratic socialism under Corbyn. In fact, People's Vote was really only interested in destroying the Corbyn project and a whole host of Labour MPs and grest and good (A Campbell for instance) went along with that because they wanted control back. We could have had a much softer Brexit but they calculated it was better for them politically to crash us into Johnson and hard Brexit.
The London middle classes thought that all Brexit voters were racist idiots. It was never about Europe particularly. It was a bloody nose aimed at the establishment who had failed them.
The same section of people threw their hands up in despair and revulsion at Trump and Farage and still never seeks to understand why they might be making such inroads.
If you label half a country as racist idiots it really doesn't show much understanding of what is really going on.
The neoliberal consensus is dead. What comes after is what is up for grabs, and it's only the right that seems aware of that at the moment. Labour trying to cosplay 1997 is so out of touch it's frightening.
I'm politically totally opposed but I can understand why we will have a Reform majority government in 2029. [Post edited 1 Jun 18:02]
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 17:36 - Jun 1 with 665 views | FoghornGleghorn |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 17:17 - Jun 1 by StokieBlue |
Is it true though?
Reform supporting posters on here have been asked for specific policies they support numerous times and they are yet to provide any.
If they don't know the policies of Reform then how do they know Reform are listening to them?
I think saying they aren't being listened to and that is why they support Reform is an easy way to hand-wave away supporting some rather nasty views.
SB [Post edited 1 Jun 17:19]
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They've also been asked what the concerns are that would lead them to vote for Reform, and all we get is the occasional nonsensical soundbite about how the country's too busy nowadays because houses are being built and they can see cars going past when they're sitting outside their local when they didn't before. Asked whether those concerns are worth risking paying for their healthcare under an insurance-based system as they move into old age.
Curiosity is shown to them, but nothing comes back. No engagement. No discussion. Just regurgitated bombastic sloganeering crap out of a pamphlet. | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 17:41 - Jun 1 with 638 views | flykickingbybgunn |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 17:17 - Jun 1 by StokieBlue |
Is it true though?
Reform supporting posters on here have been asked for specific policies they support numerous times and they are yet to provide any.
If they don't know the policies of Reform then how do they know Reform are listening to them?
I think saying they aren't being listened to and that is why they support Reform is an easy way to hand-wave away supporting some rather nasty views.
SB [Post edited 1 Jun 17:19]
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I cant tell you all the policies of Reform either exept reversing the winter fuel payment an stopping the boats at Dover. But that proves nothing as I am equally ignorant of the minor policies of the other parties.
But it is clear that only die hard tories voted for them in last months election. Labour lost it's 35th safest seat.
Voters are fed up with poor government from all sides and want somebody, anybody who says it can be done differently.
That is why Farage is curently doing well. Not because of his policies but because he is not the distrusted establishment. |  | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 17:51 - Jun 1 with 613 views | Herbivore |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 17:41 - Jun 1 by flykickingbybgunn |
I cant tell you all the policies of Reform either exept reversing the winter fuel payment an stopping the boats at Dover. But that proves nothing as I am equally ignorant of the minor policies of the other parties.
But it is clear that only die hard tories voted for them in last months election. Labour lost it's 35th safest seat.
Voters are fed up with poor government from all sides and want somebody, anybody who says it can be done differently.
That is why Farage is curently doing well. Not because of his policies but because he is not the distrusted establishment. |
Private school and Oxbridge educated former banker and career politician Nigel Farage isn't part of the establishment? |  |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 17:52 - Jun 1 with 615 views | jasondozzell |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 17:51 - Jun 1 by Herbivore |
Private school and Oxbridge educated former banker and career politician Nigel Farage isn't part of the establishment? |
Strawman argument.
The point is that Reform are not Labour or Tories. Public feels both have failed them. Like it or not we have to accept Reform will be able to position themselves as anti establishment. | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 17:58 - Jun 1 with 596 views | DJR |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 17:26 - Jun 1 by jasondozzell |
Completely this.
And it's the biggest lesson from Brexit that still hasn't been learned it seems.
There's real anger and despair amongst the electorate and it's being ignored or totally misinterpreted by a political elite that is totally out of touch.
I've mentioned it before, but the article I read in 2016 that talked about the southern mining town never before visited by a presidential nominee that Trump came to for a rally really stuck in the mind. Real righteous anger.
Brexit was really revealing imo too. I voted remain but I then found myself astonished at the reaction from middle class remainers, many of the professional/managerial class who couldn't accept losing. Presumably because they never usually lost. The remaniac podcast/people's vote/b***ocks to Brexit brigade was really eye opening. They lost their minds over that but shuddered at the idea of mild democratic socialism under Corbyn. In fact, People's Vote was really only interested in destroying the Corbyn project and a whole host of Labour MPs and grest and good (A Campbell for instance) went along with that because they wanted control back. We could have had a much softer Brexit but they calculated it was better for them politically to crash us into Johnson and hard Brexit.
The London middle classes thought that all Brexit voters were racist idiots. It was never about Europe particularly. It was a bloody nose aimed at the establishment who had failed them.
The same section of people threw their hands up in despair and revulsion at Trump and Farage and still never seeks to understand why they might be making such inroads.
If you label half a country as racist idiots it really doesn't show much understanding of what is really going on.
The neoliberal consensus is dead. What comes after is what is up for grabs, and it's only the right that seems aware of that at the moment. Labour trying to cosplay 1997 is so out of touch it's frightening.
I'm politically totally opposed but I can understand why we will have a Reform majority government in 2029. [Post edited 1 Jun 18:02]
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Another lesson of Brexit (and Trump's recent win) is that disparaging voters and criticising policies just doesn't seem to cut it.
In the main, I think it is because the right is very good at tapping into issues which trigger an emotional response in people, and when that happens any form of rational debate goes out of the window. Social media has no doubt amplified this exponentially.
Interestingly, I have just come across the following article about populism but playing into fears and emotions has been a feature of Tory rhetoric for as long as I can remember.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-80803-7_7
"Right-wing populist parties have been a fixture of Western European party systems for several decades. Once considered ‘flash parties’ they have become fixed part of the political landscape. Several factors account for their ability to put down roots: For one, right-wing populist parties offer an attractive mixture of anti-establishment rhetoric (populism) and exclusionary policy programs (nativism) which appeals to a diverse range of constituencies. At the same time, they evoke and play to a range of strong emotions engendered by large-scale structural changes, which threaten to disrupt the lives of a substantial number of citizens in Western societies." [Post edited 1 Jun 18:06]
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 18:07 - Jun 1 with 572 views | jasondozzell |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 17:58 - Jun 1 by DJR |
Another lesson of Brexit (and Trump's recent win) is that disparaging voters and criticising policies just doesn't seem to cut it.
In the main, I think it is because the right is very good at tapping into issues which trigger an emotional response in people, and when that happens any form of rational debate goes out of the window. Social media has no doubt amplified this exponentially.
Interestingly, I have just come across the following article about populism but playing into fears and emotions has been a feature of Tory rhetoric for as long as I can remember.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-80803-7_7
"Right-wing populist parties have been a fixture of Western European party systems for several decades. Once considered ‘flash parties’ they have become fixed part of the political landscape. Several factors account for their ability to put down roots: For one, right-wing populist parties offer an attractive mixture of anti-establishment rhetoric (populism) and exclusionary policy programs (nativism) which appeals to a diverse range of constituencies. At the same time, they evoke and play to a range of strong emotions engendered by large-scale structural changes, which threaten to disrupt the lives of a substantial number of citizens in Western societies." [Post edited 1 Jun 18:06]
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Yes, I think you're right. And parties like Reform offer an alternative to the technocrat heavy vision of established mainstream parties.
Politics is emotional. It's why those who sought to win Brexit debates by offering up chart after chart and table after table of figures didn't understand why they weren't met with people rolling over.
It's also a lot to do with the fact we're more siloed and atomised and separated than ever before.
If you live in Zone 2 you're totally sheltered from provincial town reality as it has become across Britain. Same with say Bury and Ipswich. | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 18:09 - Jun 1 with 565 views | flykickingbybgunn |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 17:58 - Jun 1 by DJR |
Another lesson of Brexit (and Trump's recent win) is that disparaging voters and criticising policies just doesn't seem to cut it.
In the main, I think it is because the right is very good at tapping into issues which trigger an emotional response in people, and when that happens any form of rational debate goes out of the window. Social media has no doubt amplified this exponentially.
Interestingly, I have just come across the following article about populism but playing into fears and emotions has been a feature of Tory rhetoric for as long as I can remember.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-80803-7_7
"Right-wing populist parties have been a fixture of Western European party systems for several decades. Once considered ‘flash parties’ they have become fixed part of the political landscape. Several factors account for their ability to put down roots: For one, right-wing populist parties offer an attractive mixture of anti-establishment rhetoric (populism) and exclusionary policy programs (nativism) which appeals to a diverse range of constituencies. At the same time, they evoke and play to a range of strong emotions engendered by large-scale structural changes, which threaten to disrupt the lives of a substantial number of citizens in Western societies." [Post edited 1 Jun 18:06]
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This is not a wind up but a genuine question.
Populisom. Can you define it ??
To my simple mind it was just something that is popular but clearly it has different meanings to different people.
As I say this is not a wind up. | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 18:15 - Jun 1 with 543 views | DJR |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 18:07 - Jun 1 by jasondozzell |
Yes, I think you're right. And parties like Reform offer an alternative to the technocrat heavy vision of established mainstream parties.
Politics is emotional. It's why those who sought to win Brexit debates by offering up chart after chart and table after table of figures didn't understand why they weren't met with people rolling over.
It's also a lot to do with the fact we're more siloed and atomised and separated than ever before.
If you live in Zone 2 you're totally sheltered from provincial town reality as it has become across Britain. Same with say Bury and Ipswich. |
The tragedy for me is that the Remain campaign never offered a positive vision of the EU, and only focused on the downside of Brexit.
Thus it couldn't compete with phrases such as "take back control" and "sovereignty" which touched a nerve.
For example, a case should have been made for the positive nature of European co-operation, as we are finding out now is important when it comes to Ukraine.
And I don't remember a case being made for things like free mobile roaming and the ability for people to live, work and study in the EU, or retire to Spain. | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 18:35 - Jun 1 with 495 views | jasondozzell |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 18:15 - Jun 1 by DJR |
The tragedy for me is that the Remain campaign never offered a positive vision of the EU, and only focused on the downside of Brexit.
Thus it couldn't compete with phrases such as "take back control" and "sovereignty" which touched a nerve.
For example, a case should have been made for the positive nature of European co-operation, as we are finding out now is important when it comes to Ukraine.
And I don't remember a case being made for things like free mobile roaming and the ability for people to live, work and study in the EU, or retire to Spain. |
Yes it was not at all a very well run campaign. I agree about the need to frame it more positively.
It was such an interesting period with the fallout though. It still seems odd that a lot of people were more moved by a relationship with a trading bloc/defensive partnership than any other political matter, including crumbling public services. | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 18:41 - Jun 1 with 478 views | Mullet |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 18:15 - Jun 1 by DJR |
The tragedy for me is that the Remain campaign never offered a positive vision of the EU, and only focused on the downside of Brexit.
Thus it couldn't compete with phrases such as "take back control" and "sovereignty" which touched a nerve.
For example, a case should have been made for the positive nature of European co-operation, as we are finding out now is important when it comes to Ukraine.
And I don't remember a case being made for things like free mobile roaming and the ability for people to live, work and study in the EU, or retire to Spain. |
It was never taken seriously. Cameron never expected people to vote for Brexit and it was hijacked by opportunists like de Pfeiffel and Farage to make money and grab power. The fact that Brexit was never defined made it harder to challenge too. It simply became “get all your dreams coming true” to people.
The turnout being so low is a good indicator of the issue. It should have been a massive turnout for something so important but it was never really seen as such until it was too late. No party can afford to reverse Brexit without strengthening the Far Rights hand either. |  |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 18:42 - Jun 1 with 467 views | Herbivore |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 17:52 - Jun 1 by jasondozzell |
Strawman argument.
The point is that Reform are not Labour or Tories. Public feels both have failed them. Like it or not we have to accept Reform will be able to position themselves as anti establishment. |
But the point is that Farage is the very definition of establishment, he represents all the things he pretends to rail against. Accepting the narrative that he is the anti-establishment choice isn't helpful and pointing out his establishment credentials really is not a straw man argument. | |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 18:55 - Jun 1 with 430 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 17:26 - Jun 1 by jasondozzell |
Completely this.
And it's the biggest lesson from Brexit that still hasn't been learned it seems.
There's real anger and despair amongst the electorate and it's being ignored or totally misinterpreted by a political elite that is totally out of touch.
I've mentioned it before, but the article I read in 2016 that talked about the southern mining town never before visited by a presidential nominee that Trump came to for a rally really stuck in the mind. Real righteous anger.
Brexit was really revealing imo too. I voted remain but I then found myself astonished at the reaction from middle class remainers, many of the professional/managerial class who couldn't accept losing. Presumably because they never usually lost. The remaniac podcast/people's vote/b***ocks to Brexit brigade was really eye opening. They lost their minds over that but shuddered at the idea of mild democratic socialism under Corbyn. In fact, People's Vote was really only interested in destroying the Corbyn project and a whole host of Labour MPs and grest and good (A Campbell for instance) went along with that because they wanted control back. We could have had a much softer Brexit but they calculated it was better for them politically to crash us into Johnson and hard Brexit.
The London middle classes thought that all Brexit voters were racist idiots. It was never about Europe particularly. It was a bloody nose aimed at the establishment who had failed them.
The same section of people threw their hands up in despair and revulsion at Trump and Farage and still never seeks to understand why they might be making such inroads.
If you label half a country as racist idiots it really doesn't show much understanding of what is really going on.
The neoliberal consensus is dead. What comes after is what is up for grabs, and it's only the right that seems aware of that at the moment. Labour trying to cosplay 1997 is so out of touch it's frightening.
I'm politically totally opposed but I can understand why we will have a Reform majority government in 2029. [Post edited 1 Jun 18:02]
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If that assessment is accurate, it’s bloody depressing. Left behind voters turn to populists like Johnson (I’ve added his name, as he fits into this and was the beneficiary of Brexit), Trump and Farage because they’re making a stand against the elite?
- Johnson - born into money, attended Eton and Oxford. Daddy got him a job in media and then his connections saw him to the position of Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. From the latest figures I could find, his net worth in 2024 was £4M.
- Trump - twice the holder of the President of the United States. Serial property magnate and estimated net worth of $5.5 BILLION.
- Farage - privately educated stockbroker. Career politician for 26 years, was handed EU sanctions for fraudulently misusing using EU money. Also a current UK MP with by far the highest earnings in the current parliament (whilst not representing his constituents). Estimated net worth £4M.
You suggest the reason that people vote for them is justified, but one doesn’t have to dig very deep to realise people have been conned and, sadly, are just useful idiots allowing the privileged to get even richer. Maybe that hurts. But they are idiots. I don’t know how we get past that fact in a way that doesn’t hurt people’s feelings - sometimes you just have to face the truth. | |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 19:11 - Jun 1 with 404 views | jasondozzell |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 18:42 - Jun 1 by Herbivore |
But the point is that Farage is the very definition of establishment, he represents all the things he pretends to rail against. Accepting the narrative that he is the anti-establishment choice isn't helpful and pointing out his establishment credentials really is not a straw man argument. |
I don't disagree with you about him being establishment but if all the left has to counter him and Reform with is the accusation that he's exactly what he's positioning himself against, it's going to be a Brexit rerun. It's not enough to point out he was a banker.
He's certainly not Labour or Tory and he's operating differently. I think a lot of the public will congratulate him on making money banking as depressing as that is. It's the perception that counts. You have to offer more than 'he went to private school and made money as a trader'. It's not the gotcha people think it is. Public aren't daft - they know where Farage has come from, what matters to them is he speaks and says he'll act differently to the rest. You can even see it in his media dealings. He knows his own mind and isn't phased. Starmer looks like he's haunted by focus groups and his own aides all the time. | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 19:13 - Jun 1 with 400 views | DJR |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 18:09 - Jun 1 by flykickingbybgunn |
This is not a wind up but a genuine question.
Populisom. Can you define it ??
To my simple mind it was just something that is popular but clearly it has different meanings to different people.
As I say this is not a wind up. |
I am no expert but I would say the Republican Party under George Dubya was not populist but under Trump it is.
And in this country, Reform is populist, and the Toru Party (but not all its MPs) is increasingly going in that direction.
Whether Johnson was populist, as opposed to popular, self-serving and loose with the truth, is for debate, but I am inclined to think the latter.
[Post edited 1 Jun 19:14]
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 19:17 - Jun 1 with 387 views | Herbivore |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 19:11 - Jun 1 by jasondozzell |
I don't disagree with you about him being establishment but if all the left has to counter him and Reform with is the accusation that he's exactly what he's positioning himself against, it's going to be a Brexit rerun. It's not enough to point out he was a banker.
He's certainly not Labour or Tory and he's operating differently. I think a lot of the public will congratulate him on making money banking as depressing as that is. It's the perception that counts. You have to offer more than 'he went to private school and made money as a trader'. It's not the gotcha people think it is. Public aren't daft - they know where Farage has come from, what matters to them is he speaks and says he'll act differently to the rest. You can even see it in his media dealings. He knows his own mind and isn't phased. Starmer looks like he's haunted by focus groups and his own aides all the time. |
It's important to point out that Farage is a charlatan and that Reform aren't the alternative they present themselves as being. I think that's a better option than buying and selling the narrative that they are a genuine alternative and that Farage really is a man of the people. | |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 19:20 - Jun 1 with 384 views | DJR |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 18:41 - Jun 1 by Mullet |
It was never taken seriously. Cameron never expected people to vote for Brexit and it was hijacked by opportunists like de Pfeiffel and Farage to make money and grab power. The fact that Brexit was never defined made it harder to challenge too. It simply became “get all your dreams coming true” to people.
The turnout being so low is a good indicator of the issue. It should have been a massive turnout for something so important but it was never really seen as such until it was too late. No party can afford to reverse Brexit without strengthening the Far Rights hand either. |
I took it seriously because I campaigned on the streets for Remain
I wonder how many others on here did the same.
As it is, the turnout at 72% was very high by reference to the turnout in General Elections this century. | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 19:20 - Jun 1 with 383 views | jasondozzell |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 18:55 - Jun 1 by Swansea_Blue |
If that assessment is accurate, it’s bloody depressing. Left behind voters turn to populists like Johnson (I’ve added his name, as he fits into this and was the beneficiary of Brexit), Trump and Farage because they’re making a stand against the elite?
- Johnson - born into money, attended Eton and Oxford. Daddy got him a job in media and then his connections saw him to the position of Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. From the latest figures I could find, his net worth in 2024 was £4M.
- Trump - twice the holder of the President of the United States. Serial property magnate and estimated net worth of $5.5 BILLION.
- Farage - privately educated stockbroker. Career politician for 26 years, was handed EU sanctions for fraudulently misusing using EU money. Also a current UK MP with by far the highest earnings in the current parliament (whilst not representing his constituents). Estimated net worth £4M.
You suggest the reason that people vote for them is justified, but one doesn’t have to dig very deep to realise people have been conned and, sadly, are just useful idiots allowing the privileged to get even richer. Maybe that hurts. But they are idiots. I don’t know how we get past that fact in a way that doesn’t hurt people’s feelings - sometimes you just have to face the truth. |
It is depressing. But it's where we are.
There was a viable alternative from the left that was popular with the public, winning 40% in 2017, but it was crushed by media and Labour party because it wasn't acceptable to them.
I'd be very careful about labelling voters idiots. They might seem like idiots from a certain vantage point, but that doesn't mean it looks idiotic from where they are standing.
If you've been punched in the face by the same two guys for twenty years, do you (a) choose them again or (b) choose someone new, even if the other guys warn you they will punch you in the face too?
Reform are sort of Thatcherite 2.0 with more ideas about state intervention than previously (family policy, nationalising some industry, more robust immigration enforcement). That will be very popular, not least because Labour and Tories locked in the Thatcherism over the last 40 years.
If you live in an ordinary town, why wouldn't you try something different when neoliberalism has failed you? | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 19:23 - Jun 1 with 376 views | jasondozzell |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 19:17 - Jun 1 by Herbivore |
It's important to point out that Farage is a charlatan and that Reform aren't the alternative they present themselves as being. I think that's a better option than buying and selling the narrative that they are a genuine alternative and that Farage really is a man of the people. |
You can do that but imo you need to meet him with ideas, not Lions led by Donkeys stuff. Farage has ideas. Left needs to battle that out- not try and patronise public by telling them Farage is establishment. It won't work. | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 19:24 - Jun 1 with 370 views | Herbivore |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 19:20 - Jun 1 by jasondozzell |
It is depressing. But it's where we are.
There was a viable alternative from the left that was popular with the public, winning 40% in 2017, but it was crushed by media and Labour party because it wasn't acceptable to them.
I'd be very careful about labelling voters idiots. They might seem like idiots from a certain vantage point, but that doesn't mean it looks idiotic from where they are standing.
If you've been punched in the face by the same two guys for twenty years, do you (a) choose them again or (b) choose someone new, even if the other guys warn you they will punch you in the face too?
Reform are sort of Thatcherite 2.0 with more ideas about state intervention than previously (family policy, nationalising some industry, more robust immigration enforcement). That will be very popular, not least because Labour and Tories locked in the Thatcherism over the last 40 years.
If you live in an ordinary town, why wouldn't you try something different when neoliberalism has failed you? |
Because the "alternative" is even more rampantly neo liberal - they are basically economic libertarians for the most part, aside from the odd protectionist policy - than what's come before. I get the idea that people are rejecting the parties that have failed to make things better for them but doing that by voting for a party that's going to be mostly more of the same but on steroids isn't really a good way to go. | |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 19:25 - Jun 1 with 365 views | flykickingbybgunn |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 19:11 - Jun 1 by jasondozzell |
I don't disagree with you about him being establishment but if all the left has to counter him and Reform with is the accusation that he's exactly what he's positioning himself against, it's going to be a Brexit rerun. It's not enough to point out he was a banker.
He's certainly not Labour or Tory and he's operating differently. I think a lot of the public will congratulate him on making money banking as depressing as that is. It's the perception that counts. You have to offer more than 'he went to private school and made money as a trader'. It's not the gotcha people think it is. Public aren't daft - they know where Farage has come from, what matters to them is he speaks and says he'll act differently to the rest. You can even see it in his media dealings. He knows his own mind and isn't phased. Starmer looks like he's haunted by focus groups and his own aides all the time. |
The difference between the way Trump and Farage opperate and especially Labour is that the former are in effect dictators of their parties whereas our current Govt have to try to please all sorts.
It's the difference between Alf Ramsey and a commitee choosing the England players that happened in the '50's. | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 19:27 - Jun 1 with 352 views | Herbivore |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 19:23 - Jun 1 by jasondozzell |
You can do that but imo you need to meet him with ideas, not Lions led by Donkeys stuff. Farage has ideas. Left needs to battle that out- not try and patronise public by telling them Farage is establishment. It won't work. |
There is no mainstream political left in this country so I'm not sure who you think is going to carry the fight in any case. If it's patronising to tell people the truth these days then we really are in the sh!t. | |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 19:35 - Jun 1 with 323 views | jasondozzell |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 19:24 - Jun 1 by Herbivore |
Because the "alternative" is even more rampantly neo liberal - they are basically economic libertarians for the most part, aside from the odd protectionist policy - than what's come before. I get the idea that people are rejecting the parties that have failed to make things better for them but doing that by voting for a party that's going to be mostly more of the same but on steroids isn't really a good way to go. |
Oh I totally agree that they are all low tax, libertarian right wing people, but that won't put off a lot of the public. They'll agree with it. Thatcherism 2.0. But Farage is clever and having destroyed the Tories he's outflanking Labour on the left on things like the yep child benefit cap and British steel etc. At the same time, that muscular state approach combined with things like raising income tax threshold will see people viewing it as having more direct impact on them than anything before.
That combination is going to appeal and make sense to a lot of people.
If your bus costs more, never arrives on time, you can't afford to pay the bills, the town you live in looks dreadful, community and industry long gone, you can't keep up with the lifestyle that you're meant to have when you look at social media etc. and you remember things being better in the past, why wouldn't you roll the dice?
I'm not saying I agree with it at all but I'm saying to dismiss it as just turkeys voting for Christmas is to miss something really important. | | | |
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