| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week 18:31 - May 30 with 13091 views | onceablue |
Slagging off Nigel Farage
Who are his PR Advisors?
I would be telling him not to even mention Farage. An election is at least 4 years away he should be concentrating on his party and his policies.
The speech he made at that factory is the sort of speech you make the week before an election
Everytime he mentions Farage it just strengthens the Reform Leader’s position
Reform is not the answer for this Country but Starmer is making this unlikely outcome a real possibility
Even the press have started to take the mickey out of Starmer
That
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 09:59 - Jun 3 with 866 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 09:45 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Where have I made personal attacks? Have you actually read the thread? I've consistently challenged their views and provided evidence for mine.
You've referred, above, to jd saying Farage has had a huge influence on British politics... but that's a straw man. No-one's disagreed with that.
Farage single-handedly destroying the Tories, which is where jd sarted out, is clearly OTT. There are many other factors which people have listed and provided evidence for. |
The Tories were responsible for their own downfall. Farage took full advantage of that but the biggest winners were Labour who ended up with a significantly higher majority than they deserved.
Don’t think anyone doubts they deserved to be given a chance to govern it was time for a change.
A change many are still waiting for. |  |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 12:17 - Jun 3 with 772 views | jasondozzell |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:45 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I get all that. I disagree that they haven't made a great start, but that's another story. Labour will be nowhere near the sh!t show the Tories were, but they certainly shouldn't be complacent either (and I'm not sure anyone's suggesting they are or will be). Reform may have split the right wing vote but I still don't see them doing enough to win outright. The Tories might elect a new leader and get their act together by the next election - if Farage and Reform are still doing their thing by then, surely the result will be the same, a split right-wing vote?
But anyway, we've veered away from the discussion which was Farage destroyed the Tories, which I think you agree with me is giving him way more credit than he deserves. The main destroyer of the Tories was their lies, corruption and ineptitude catching up with them. |
Anyone believing this analysis or trying to reason for Labour's paper thin election win last year is in for a gigantic shock in my opinion.
I don't think people have quite grasped what has happened. You can't blame them because the media is dreadful.
In short, Labour right ghouls fought tooth and nail to regain control of the Labour party, including sabotaging the party from within. The media were complicit with this (McSweeney meeting many journalists in 2018 to present the plan).
There was no enthusiasm for the Starner project from the off. The public did not want what they were selling. The only people who may have been vaguely enthusiastic were Blairites or people who thought themselves clever from buying the incredibly lazy analysis of 'The grown ups are back in charge'. Tories collapsed and Labour underperformed in the election.
No one thought to scrutinise exactly what the Labour project was going to be. Predictably it's been a disaster as there was little more than getting the media onside and the word 'growth'. Lack of coherent plan has led to chaotic decision making mixed with an embarrassing Labour right medley of flags, crackdowns, punishing the vulnerable, supporting a genocide, and no credible policy offering.
This is all quite embarrassing for the media who know Starmer is finished but need to leave enough time to pass for fear it's going to make everyone look very bad to acknowledge that this has been disastrous. The Labour party appears irredeemable to be honest. The very worst people at the very worst time.
Meanwhile, there's a political earthquake coming with Farage and Reform. I suspect if Farage had control over Starmer he wouldn't do anything differently to what the latter has done in the first 10 months of government. Starmer is validating Reform and aiding them. They are trying to win votes they can't ever win and legitimising Reform as opposition. Labour as handmaidens of the far right are going to usher in Reform government. Predictably McSweeney has doubled down on his strategy so it's locked in.
I don't think people have grasped the level of anger throughout the electorate and the reality of what is coming. [Post edited 3 Jun 14:16]
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 12:24 - Jun 3 with 756 views | jasondozzell |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 08:17 - Jun 3 by Herbivore |
I don't think it's necessarily true of all those who supported Corbyn but I think it is true of this particular poster given some of the OTT rhetoric they have been using. It's very social media echo chamber stuff, I've seen it doing the rounds.
For what it's worth, the only time I've voted Labour was when Corbyn was leader but I wouldn't consider myself a fan of him so much as his pushing of left of centre policies. First time in my adult life that any party has put forward a left of centre agenda. But Corbyn himself was pretty deeply flawed as a leader and his downfall, while contributed to by people from within and without his own party, was also in large part down to his flaws. |
What's the OTT rhetoric? What isn't true? | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 12:50 - Jun 3 with 692 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 12:17 - Jun 3 by jasondozzell |
Anyone believing this analysis or trying to reason for Labour's paper thin election win last year is in for a gigantic shock in my opinion.
I don't think people have quite grasped what has happened. You can't blame them because the media is dreadful.
In short, Labour right ghouls fought tooth and nail to regain control of the Labour party, including sabotaging the party from within. The media were complicit with this (McSweeney meeting many journalists in 2018 to present the plan).
There was no enthusiasm for the Starner project from the off. The public did not want what they were selling. The only people who may have been vaguely enthusiastic were Blairites or people who thought themselves clever from buying the incredibly lazy analysis of 'The grown ups are back in charge'. Tories collapsed and Labour underperformed in the election.
No one thought to scrutinise exactly what the Labour project was going to be. Predictably it's been a disaster as there was little more than getting the media onside and the word 'growth'. Lack of coherent plan has led to chaotic decision making mixed with an embarrassing Labour right medley of flags, crackdowns, punishing the vulnerable, supporting a genocide, and no credible policy offering.
This is all quite embarrassing for the media who know Starmer is finished but need to leave enough time to pass for fear it's going to make everyone look very bad to acknowledge that this has been disastrous. The Labour party appears irredeemable to be honest. The very worst people at the very worst time.
Meanwhile, there's a political earthquake coming with Farage and Reform. I suspect if Farage had control over Starmer he wouldn't do anything differently to what the latter has done in the first 10 months of government. Starmer is validating Reform and aiding them. They are trying to win votes they can't ever win and legitimising Reform as opposition. Labour as handmaidens of the far right are going to usher in Reform government. Predictably McSweeney has doubled down on his strategy so it's locked in.
I don't think people have grasped the level of anger throughout the electorate and the reality of what is coming. [Post edited 3 Jun 14:16]
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You're just repeating everything you've already said in the thread. I disagree with all of it. I can only assume you're a Reform voter, or at least sympathiser, trying to stoke the fires and foster things you want to be true.
The idea that there's been lazy analysis and then you post all this.
The idea that Labour are "The very worst people at the very worst time" after the last 14 years...
What does a "medley of flags and crackdowns" even mean?
In what way are Labour "punishing the vulnerable"?
Not a single policy so far has been credible? Not one?!
Soundbites with no substance, just like Farage... |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 13:07 - Jun 3 with 670 views | DJR |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 12:50 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You're just repeating everything you've already said in the thread. I disagree with all of it. I can only assume you're a Reform voter, or at least sympathiser, trying to stoke the fires and foster things you want to be true.
The idea that there's been lazy analysis and then you post all this.
The idea that Labour are "The very worst people at the very worst time" after the last 14 years...
What does a "medley of flags and crackdowns" even mean?
In what way are Labour "punishing the vulnerable"?
Not a single policy so far has been credible? Not one?!
Soundbites with no substance, just like Farage... |
As well as cutting benefits for the disabled, the following is also an example of "punishing the vulnerable".
"The share of the UK’s Gross National Income (GNI) spent on helping vulnerable people overseas is set to drop to the lowest ever as a result of planned aid cuts, Save the Children analysis has revealed.
When expenditure in the UK is deducted, new figures reveal in 2027 the funds for work around the world are likely to plummet to the smallest share of GNI since records began in 1979, at just 0.22%."
This has gone ahead with barely a murmur, no doubt because it is popular.
EDIT: to her credit Annalise Dodds resigned as International Development Secretary, and here is an extract from her resignation letter.
Undoubtedly the postwar global order has come crashing down. I believe that we must increase spending on defence as a result; and know that there are no easy paths to doing so. I stood ready to work with you to deliver that increased spending, knowing some might well have had to come from ODA. I also expected we would collectively discuss our fiscal rules and approach to taxation, as other nations are doing. Even 3% may only be the start, and it will be impossible to raise the substantial resources needed just through tactical cuts to public spending. These are unprecedented times, when strategic decisions for the sake of our country's security cannot be ducked.
Instead, the tactical decision was taken for ODA to absorb the entire burden. You have maintained that you want to continue support for Gaza, Sudan and Ukraine; for vaccination; for climate; and for rules-based systems. Yet it will be impossible to maintain these priorities given the depth of the cut; the effect will be far greater than presented, even if assumptions made about reducing asylum costs hold true. The cut will also likely lead to a UK pull-out from numerous African, Caribbean and Western Balkan nations - at a time when Russia has been aggressively increasing its global presence. It will likely lead to withdrawal from regional banks and a reduced commitment to the World Bank; the UK being shut out of numerous muitlateral bodies; and a reduced voice for the UK in the G7, G20 and in climate negotiations.All this while China is seeking to rewrite global rules, and when the climate crisis is the biggest security threat of them all.
Ultimately, these cuts will remove food and healthcare from desperate people - deeply harming the UK's reputation. I know you have been clear that you are not ideologically opposed to international development. But the reality is that this decision is already being portrayed as following in President Trump's slipstream of cuts to USAID. [Post edited 3 Jun 13:17]
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 13:23 - Jun 3 with 630 views | jasondozzell |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 12:50 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You're just repeating everything you've already said in the thread. I disagree with all of it. I can only assume you're a Reform voter, or at least sympathiser, trying to stoke the fires and foster things you want to be true.
The idea that there's been lazy analysis and then you post all this.
The idea that Labour are "The very worst people at the very worst time" after the last 14 years...
What does a "medley of flags and crackdowns" even mean?
In what way are Labour "punishing the vulnerable"?
Not a single policy so far has been credible? Not one?!
Soundbites with no substance, just like Farage... |
The idea that Labour are "The very worst people at the very worst time" after the last 14 years...
If you think the last 14 years have been bad, they will look a doddle with a hard right government on its way. They are the very worst people at the very worst time simply because they don't have any principles and are exactly the opposite of what is needed to rescue the country and defeat the threat of Reform.
What does a "medley of flags and crackdowns" even mean?
It means their strategy has been entirely wrapping themselves in British flags and empty patriotic rhetoric and announcing embarrassing spurious crackdowns in the absence of any actual policy like crushing flytippers' cars and banning Motocross from public paths.
In what way are Labour "punishing the vulnerable"?
Not lifting the two child benefit cap, taking away winter fuel allowance, attacking the disabled, materially supporting genocide in Gaza, squeezing working class and middle class whilst costing up to BlackRock. | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 13:24 - Jun 3 with 628 views | jasondozzell |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 13:07 - Jun 3 by DJR |
As well as cutting benefits for the disabled, the following is also an example of "punishing the vulnerable".
"The share of the UK’s Gross National Income (GNI) spent on helping vulnerable people overseas is set to drop to the lowest ever as a result of planned aid cuts, Save the Children analysis has revealed.
When expenditure in the UK is deducted, new figures reveal in 2027 the funds for work around the world are likely to plummet to the smallest share of GNI since records began in 1979, at just 0.22%."
This has gone ahead with barely a murmur, no doubt because it is popular.
EDIT: to her credit Annalise Dodds resigned as International Development Secretary, and here is an extract from her resignation letter.
Undoubtedly the postwar global order has come crashing down. I believe that we must increase spending on defence as a result; and know that there are no easy paths to doing so. I stood ready to work with you to deliver that increased spending, knowing some might well have had to come from ODA. I also expected we would collectively discuss our fiscal rules and approach to taxation, as other nations are doing. Even 3% may only be the start, and it will be impossible to raise the substantial resources needed just through tactical cuts to public spending. These are unprecedented times, when strategic decisions for the sake of our country's security cannot be ducked.
Instead, the tactical decision was taken for ODA to absorb the entire burden. You have maintained that you want to continue support for Gaza, Sudan and Ukraine; for vaccination; for climate; and for rules-based systems. Yet it will be impossible to maintain these priorities given the depth of the cut; the effect will be far greater than presented, even if assumptions made about reducing asylum costs hold true. The cut will also likely lead to a UK pull-out from numerous African, Caribbean and Western Balkan nations - at a time when Russia has been aggressively increasing its global presence. It will likely lead to withdrawal from regional banks and a reduced commitment to the World Bank; the UK being shut out of numerous muitlateral bodies; and a reduced voice for the UK in the G7, G20 and in climate negotiations.All this while China is seeking to rewrite global rules, and when the climate crisis is the biggest security threat of them all.
Ultimately, these cuts will remove food and healthcare from desperate people - deeply harming the UK's reputation. I know you have been clear that you are not ideologically opposed to international development. But the reality is that this decision is already being portrayed as following in President Trump's slipstream of cuts to USAID. [Post edited 3 Jun 13:17]
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I'd forgotten about the aid budget! Desperate stuff.
As you say, at least Dodds haf the decency to resign. The fact that others haven't over any of the other policy decisions is telling. | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 13:40 - Jun 3 with 563 views | jasondozzell |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 12:50 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You're just repeating everything you've already said in the thread. I disagree with all of it. I can only assume you're a Reform voter, or at least sympathiser, trying to stoke the fires and foster things you want to be true.
The idea that there's been lazy analysis and then you post all this.
The idea that Labour are "The very worst people at the very worst time" after the last 14 years...
What does a "medley of flags and crackdowns" even mean?
In what way are Labour "punishing the vulnerable"?
Not a single policy so far has been credible? Not one?!
Soundbites with no substance, just like Farage... |
How's this for substance?
https://www.ft.com/content/54fffe68-2300-4631-bff9-a4ff97024d76 | | | |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 13:46 - Jun 3 with 546 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 13:23 - Jun 3 by jasondozzell |
The idea that Labour are "The very worst people at the very worst time" after the last 14 years...
If you think the last 14 years have been bad, they will look a doddle with a hard right government on its way. They are the very worst people at the very worst time simply because they don't have any principles and are exactly the opposite of what is needed to rescue the country and defeat the threat of Reform.
What does a "medley of flags and crackdowns" even mean?
It means their strategy has been entirely wrapping themselves in British flags and empty patriotic rhetoric and announcing embarrassing spurious crackdowns in the absence of any actual policy like crushing flytippers' cars and banning Motocross from public paths.
In what way are Labour "punishing the vulnerable"?
Not lifting the two child benefit cap, taking away winter fuel allowance, attacking the disabled, materially supporting genocide in Gaza, squeezing working class and middle class whilst costing up to BlackRock. |
Again, it's mostly words and very little substance.
Labour are the worst because they might (in your opinion) let in people who are the worst? That doesn't even make sense.
"they don't have any principles and are exactly the opposite of what is needed to rescue the country" - more words, no substance. What is this opposite we need? The country fixed but without increasing spending or revenues? How does that work? Or is it Farage's empty promises we need?
"entirely wrapping themselves in British flags" - meaningless drivel. Where/in what way?
So you don't agree with stopping flytippers and and motocross on public paths? These are policies but not the policies you consider big enough so Labour don't have any policies?
Things like the two child benefit cap and taking away winter fuel allowance for those who don't need it I agree with, so we aren't going to agree there. They are policies, again, you just don't like them.
"attacking the disabled"? Really? They are actually attacking the disabled? Or is this just another soundbite and the reality is they're trying to stop spurious claims?
In what way have the working class been squeezed anymore than they were already?
The only thing I agree with you on is Gaza.
I'm done with this now, I have better things to do than go round in circles with a Farage apologist full of soundbites and little else. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 13:52 - Jun 3 with 541 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
I can't read the article as I don't have a subscription to the FT, but the winter-fuel revision (not U-turn - another soundbite) is a good thing, and the epitome of principles!
I thought they'd set the bar slightly too high and they're revising that, which is good. People complain, then when they address that complaint people are up-in-arms about a U-turn and lack of principles for not sticking rigidly to the policy those people wanted changing. They can't win whatever they do.
Some of you have just been waiting to criticise whatever Labour do frankly. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 14:01 - Jun 3 with 516 views | jasondozzell |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 13:46 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Again, it's mostly words and very little substance.
Labour are the worst because they might (in your opinion) let in people who are the worst? That doesn't even make sense.
"they don't have any principles and are exactly the opposite of what is needed to rescue the country" - more words, no substance. What is this opposite we need? The country fixed but without increasing spending or revenues? How does that work? Or is it Farage's empty promises we need?
"entirely wrapping themselves in British flags" - meaningless drivel. Where/in what way?
So you don't agree with stopping flytippers and and motocross on public paths? These are policies but not the policies you consider big enough so Labour don't have any policies?
Things like the two child benefit cap and taking away winter fuel allowance for those who don't need it I agree with, so we aren't going to agree there. They are policies, again, you just don't like them.
"attacking the disabled"? Really? They are actually attacking the disabled? Or is this just another soundbite and the reality is they're trying to stop spurious claims?
In what way have the working class been squeezed anymore than they were already?
The only thing I agree with you on is Gaza.
I'm done with this now, I have better things to do than go round in circles with a Farage apologist full of soundbites and little else. |
We'll have to agree to disagree. I respect your right to a different opinion. But if these are your guys and this is the strategy that you believe in, I really do think you're in for a terrible shock in 2029.
Principles have to mean something or they aren't principles. I can't see that this Labour government has any principles.
The FT article suggests that the Winter fuel disaster is going to be a net loss on what was supposed to be a 1.5bn cut (which was a terrible decision in the first place). They do not know what they are doing. | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 14:05 - Jun 3 with 503 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 14:01 - Jun 3 by jasondozzell |
We'll have to agree to disagree. I respect your right to a different opinion. But if these are your guys and this is the strategy that you believe in, I really do think you're in for a terrible shock in 2029.
Principles have to mean something or they aren't principles. I can't see that this Labour government has any principles.
The FT article suggests that the Winter fuel disaster is going to be a net loss on what was supposed to be a 1.5bn cut (which was a terrible decision in the first place). They do not know what they are doing. |
I've literally shown how the winter-fuel revision shows principles. There are many more, but we'll leave it there. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 14:52 - Jun 3 with 460 views | portmanking |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 14:05 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I've literally shown how the winter-fuel revision shows principles. There are many more, but we'll leave it there. |
How does a revision 'show principles'? If it *did* have principles, they would've moved heaven and earth to ensure the winter fuel allowance was protected at all costs...
To me, this Labour government flip-flops just as much as the last Tory government on almost every issue, bowing to the weight of public/media scrutiny. Principled, I think not. [Post edited 3 Jun 14:53]
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 15:07 - Jun 3 with 445 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 14:52 - Jun 3 by portmanking |
How does a revision 'show principles'? If it *did* have principles, they would've moved heaven and earth to ensure the winter fuel allowance was protected at all costs...
To me, this Labour government flip-flops just as much as the last Tory government on almost every issue, bowing to the weight of public/media scrutiny. Principled, I think not. [Post edited 3 Jun 14:53]
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Nothing to do with principles they made a mistake and will correct it next time around. | |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 15:14 - Jun 3 with 423 views | portmanking |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 15:07 - Jun 3 by Pinewoodblue |
Nothing to do with principles they made a mistake and will correct it next time around. |
But if their principle was to protect/safeguard the older generation and look after them, they wouldn't have made that 'mistake', right? | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 15:15 - Jun 3 with 422 views | chicoazul |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 13:23 - Jun 3 by jasondozzell |
The idea that Labour are "The very worst people at the very worst time" after the last 14 years...
If you think the last 14 years have been bad, they will look a doddle with a hard right government on its way. They are the very worst people at the very worst time simply because they don't have any principles and are exactly the opposite of what is needed to rescue the country and defeat the threat of Reform.
What does a "medley of flags and crackdowns" even mean?
It means their strategy has been entirely wrapping themselves in British flags and empty patriotic rhetoric and announcing embarrassing spurious crackdowns in the absence of any actual policy like crushing flytippers' cars and banning Motocross from public paths.
In what way are Labour "punishing the vulnerable"?
Not lifting the two child benefit cap, taking away winter fuel allowance, attacking the disabled, materially supporting genocide in Gaza, squeezing working class and middle class whilst costing up to BlackRock. |
Can you please explain to me in what way is Nigel Farage, a man who wants to legalise drug use, “hard right”? |  |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 15:18 - Jun 3 with 407 views | flykickingbybgunn |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 07:54 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
We've had all those parties for years and years. You're talking nonsense. |
Yes we have had these parties for years, well except Reform.
But never before have we had the two "Main" parties quite so weak and voters searching for alternatives. |  | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 15:23 - Jun 3 with 404 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 15:14 - Jun 3 by portmanking |
But if their principle was to protect/safeguard the older generation and look after them, they wouldn't have made that 'mistake', right? |
They set out to protect the vulnerable pensioners and failed miserably by setting the bar too low.
That mistake will be corrected. Not sure the bar will be set high enough for me to qualify, not going to complain if it isn’t. | |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 15:23 - Jun 3 with 405 views | DJR |
Interesting to note that the recent report from the IPPR reflects my view that Labour ought to have adopted some clear and strong policies/principles of its own rather than moving further to the right.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-reform-uk-election-starmer
"Labour should not mimic right-wing populist strategies following disappointing local election results, a new report from The Institute For Public Policy Research (IPPR) has warned. Instead, the influential think tank urges the party to embrace a bold, progressive agenda to counter the rising tide of populism." [Post edited 3 Jun 15:26]
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 15:35 - Jun 3 with 366 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 14:52 - Jun 3 by portmanking |
How does a revision 'show principles'? If it *did* have principles, they would've moved heaven and earth to ensure the winter fuel allowance was protected at all costs...
To me, this Labour government flip-flops just as much as the last Tory government on almost every issue, bowing to the weight of public/media scrutiny. Principled, I think not. [Post edited 3 Jun 14:53]
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I've explained already, but seeing as you missed it - if you think a policy went too far you can either double-down and stick with it regardless (like the Tories usually did) or you could admit you didn't quite get it right and revise it. Being willing to admit your mistakes and change is showing principles.
Of course, if they had just said, "Up yours, we're sticking with it exactly as it is" there would be plenty of people saying they've got no principles because they're sticking with something that's wrong. Can't win either way.
Which goes back to my point, some people have just been waiting to complain whatever the new government did. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 15:38 - Jun 3 with 363 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 15:14 - Jun 3 by portmanking |
But if their principle was to protect/safeguard the older generation and look after them, they wouldn't have made that 'mistake', right? |
The winter fuel payment is intended to help people who really need it, and the aim is to remove it from people who don't actually need it. It's not throwing all pensioners to the wolves. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 15:44 - Jun 3 with 353 views | portmanking |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 15:35 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I've explained already, but seeing as you missed it - if you think a policy went too far you can either double-down and stick with it regardless (like the Tories usually did) or you could admit you didn't quite get it right and revise it. Being willing to admit your mistakes and change is showing principles.
Of course, if they had just said, "Up yours, we're sticking with it exactly as it is" there would be plenty of people saying they've got no principles because they're sticking with something that's wrong. Can't win either way.
Which goes back to my point, some people have just been waiting to complain whatever the new government did. |
No, that just isn't what showing principles is in politics.
As the meaning of the word states, principles in politics is about a 'foundation of a system or belief'. The fact that Labour even considered scrapping the allowance rather than raising funds elsewhere speaks volumes.
If we're talking about genuine principles, Jeremy Corbyn (as much as I hate to say it), is arguably one of the most principled politicians out there in the last decade. He has his firm beliefs and has remained steadfast to them, to his credit, despite his inherent flaws. | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 16:13 - Jun 3 with 309 views | flykickingbybgunn |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 15:23 - Jun 3 by DJR |
Interesting to note that the recent report from the IPPR reflects my view that Labour ought to have adopted some clear and strong policies/principles of its own rather than moving further to the right.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-reform-uk-election-starmer
"Labour should not mimic right-wing populist strategies following disappointing local election results, a new report from The Institute For Public Policy Research (IPPR) has warned. Instead, the influential think tank urges the party to embrace a bold, progressive agenda to counter the rising tide of populism." [Post edited 3 Jun 15:26]
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I have enjoyed this banter back and forth. Thankyou to the contributers.
I conclude that once somebody has made their mind up they will then seek for arguments to back it up. Always.
No amount of discussion or realisation of the facts will budge them.
Indeed, independant thought is unusual in life for we are all effected by our experiences and environment.
But if we all thought the same how could we collectively get together to improve the lot of all ?
There would be nobody to say "Yes, but ...." | | | |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 16:17 - Jun 3 with 294 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 15:44 - Jun 3 by portmanking |
No, that just isn't what showing principles is in politics.
As the meaning of the word states, principles in politics is about a 'foundation of a system or belief'. The fact that Labour even considered scrapping the allowance rather than raising funds elsewhere speaks volumes.
If we're talking about genuine principles, Jeremy Corbyn (as much as I hate to say it), is arguably one of the most principled politicians out there in the last decade. He has his firm beliefs and has remained steadfast to them, to his credit, despite his inherent flaws. |
Quick google: "Being willing to accept mistakes and learn from them, leading to personal or organizational change, is a demonstration of having strong principles. It shows integrity, accountability, and a commitment to improvement, all of which are hallmarks of principled behavior." | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 16:43 - Jun 3 with 264 views | DJR |
| Keir Starmer looked a desperate man this week on 16:13 - Jun 3 by flykickingbybgunn |
I have enjoyed this banter back and forth. Thankyou to the contributers.
I conclude that once somebody has made their mind up they will then seek for arguments to back it up. Always.
No amount of discussion or realisation of the facts will budge them.
Indeed, independant thought is unusual in life for we are all effected by our experiences and environment.
But if we all thought the same how could we collectively get together to improve the lot of all ?
There would be nobody to say "Yes, but ...." |
It is clearly possible for people's views to change over time. Indeed, when it comes to politics, the fact that many people change the party they vote for is perhaps evidence of this.
But at any one time, it is generally difficult to change a person's particular opinion, as evidenced by the numerous threads on TWTD.
Still, I quite enjoy engaging in the threads, even if any upvotes I get merely demonstrate that I am preaching to the converted. [Post edited 3 Jun 16:47]
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