| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? 15:49 - Jun 16 with 6257 views | NthQldITFC |
Yoshua Bengio, Canadian-French computer scientist who received the 2018 ACM A.M. Turing Award, often referred to as the "Nobel Prize of Computing", together with Geoffrey Hinton and Yann LeCun, for their foundational work on deep learning (wikipedia) gave this interview just now on the World Service.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p004t1s0
I think we've had discussions on here in the past where people have played down the risks of AI, but this expert speaks with great nervousness about AI models which exhibit 'deception, cheating, lying, blackmailing, and trying to hack the host computer when being shut down.'
He speaks of AI as becoming a 'competitor to humanity' with 'catastrophic risks' and 'threats to democracy'. He says governments aren't taking the real risks seriously, and experimental systems have been seen to develop/create their own goals to harm humans and escape from their constraints.
He references 'the end of humanity' as a possibility several times, and speaks of the phenomenal speed of change and the 'tendency in the last few months indicating that AIs want to break out and get rid of us'.
He says we have a 'window in which we could make right decisions' and that the 'public needs a voice' and needs to educate themselves. He says AI has its own intentions and that this is not a sci-fi movie but experiments going on in labs all over the world today.
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I recognise that the above is all very vague in a sense, but then I think the implication is that our knowledge and control of the future of AI in our/its world is pretty vague and tenuous too, and perhaps not really in our hands as much as we might wish to think, and that the timeline seems to be very compressed.
Yoshua Bengio seems to me to speak with great authority and seems very worried.
Just wondering what people's thoughts are in June 2025 (and how they may have changed since say June 2024).
Do we just carry on and accentuate the positives, or do we change our world view a bit and step back on this issue whilst we have a chance? |  |
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| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:56 - Jun 25 with 341 views | nodge_blue |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:51 - Jun 25 by WeWereZombies |
Are you eliding emotion and consciousness in this post ? They may be different things, in fact emotion could be many different things. We are slipping into the division between the material and the immaterial now, which some philosophers and scientists say does not exist. However consciousness has been difficult to capture and put in a jar of formaldehyde...
Measurement and determination are complex in most of science but still doable (ah. slight problem with linguistics in that last word) due to the scientific method, the periodic table, Mendel's work on genetics, relativity theory and so on. But the immaterial, where are the ground rules that guide us through this ? |
Possibly. It's probably better to step back and say are AI displaying independent thoughts which could mean they do things autonomously that aren't in the best interests of humans.
As Ive said no ones a winner if we get wiped on by a non conscious, non emotive AI. It's all a matter of opinion as we go along this journey as to where they are with all that. |  |
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| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 14:09 - Jun 25 with 316 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:56 - Jun 25 by nodge_blue |
Possibly. It's probably better to step back and say are AI displaying independent thoughts which could mean they do things autonomously that aren't in the best interests of humans.
As Ive said no ones a winner if we get wiped on by a non conscious, non emotive AI. It's all a matter of opinion as we go along this journey as to where they are with all that. |
Yep, I broadly agree with that stepped back position. We seem to have got into a sparring match based on me just pointing out I don't think AI is conscious or anywhere near it, but overall your concerns are valid.
I'll watch the film now. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 14:14 - Jun 25 with 308 views | blueasfook |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:04 - Jun 25 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I'm happy for people to downvote if they simply disagree in an adult discussion. You've simply come along and before making any comments have just downarrowed everything I've said. Just because it's me, and just because you're a prick. |
What makes you think I don't disagree with what you're saying? You're just mad cos you don't like a taste of your own medicine. There's an old saying that goes something like "Dont dish it out if you can't take it". Maybe go easy on the downvote button in future if you don't like it done to you. |  |
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| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 14:50 - Jun 25 with 264 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 14:09 - Jun 25 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Yep, I broadly agree with that stepped back position. We seem to have got into a sparring match based on me just pointing out I don't think AI is conscious or anywhere near it, but overall your concerns are valid.
I'll watch the film now. |
I've watched those 10 minutes as you suggested. A few observations;
He says they have subjective experiences, but he doesn't provide any evidence for this. I just can't accept (based on what I've watched and read elsewhere) that a machine can feel what it's like to see red, for example. I think it can be programmed to detect red, but that's not the same as our experience of red.
Also he talks about AI saying it's having a subjective experience - I (and most scientists) would refute AI saying it's having a subjective experience means it actually is.
He says AI "won't have the physiological aspects but they will have the cognitive aspects." I think you need to have both to have true consciousness don't you? The robot isn't running away because it has adrenalin, it's been programmed to run away.
Steven then outright asks if they do have consciousness... GH says he's ambivalent about that. To be ambivalent is to have mixed feelings or contradictory ideas about something. So he's not saying they definitely do, as you've asserted. He's on the fence. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 14:51 - Jun 25 with 260 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 14:14 - Jun 25 by blueasfook |
What makes you think I don't disagree with what you're saying? You're just mad cos you don't like a taste of your own medicine. There's an old saying that goes something like "Dont dish it out if you can't take it". Maybe go easy on the downvote button in future if you don't like it done to you. |
I really don't care about arrows one way or the other Blueas. I just want you to go away and stop trying to derail this otherwise interesting and thought-provoking debate. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 15:13 - Jun 25 with 240 views | nodge_blue |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 14:50 - Jun 25 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I've watched those 10 minutes as you suggested. A few observations;
He says they have subjective experiences, but he doesn't provide any evidence for this. I just can't accept (based on what I've watched and read elsewhere) that a machine can feel what it's like to see red, for example. I think it can be programmed to detect red, but that's not the same as our experience of red.
Also he talks about AI saying it's having a subjective experience - I (and most scientists) would refute AI saying it's having a subjective experience means it actually is.
He says AI "won't have the physiological aspects but they will have the cognitive aspects." I think you need to have both to have true consciousness don't you? The robot isn't running away because it has adrenalin, it's been programmed to run away.
Steven then outright asks if they do have consciousness... GH says he's ambivalent about that. To be ambivalent is to have mixed feelings or contradictory ideas about something. So he's not saying they definitely do, as you've asserted. He's on the fence. |
I did post earlier that he was ambivalent (been pretty consistent in that looking back) but we are splitting hairs. But even to be ambivalent right now in this child state of AI with the teenager and adult models quickly coming is quite significant. He does say he they are thinking. And he does believe they have emotions.
So the robot hasn't simply been programmed to run away as in if I see a large robot I run. It's been programmed in a way to interpret danger and use a subjective experience to realise its in danger, Which GH is saying is just as valid an emotion without the physiological response. You are quite entitled to hold a different opinion. But if the result is the same, does it matter?
Isn't his point about looking at the object through a prism a subjective experience? It understands that the prism has distorted the position of the object and understands the position of where the object really is. The chatbot understood and used the words of having a subjective experience. [Post edited 25 Jun 15:17]
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| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 15:34 - Jun 25 with 219 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 15:13 - Jun 25 by nodge_blue |
I did post earlier that he was ambivalent (been pretty consistent in that looking back) but we are splitting hairs. But even to be ambivalent right now in this child state of AI with the teenager and adult models quickly coming is quite significant. He does say he they are thinking. And he does believe they have emotions.
So the robot hasn't simply been programmed to run away as in if I see a large robot I run. It's been programmed in a way to interpret danger and use a subjective experience to realise its in danger, Which GH is saying is just as valid an emotion without the physiological response. You are quite entitled to hold a different opinion. But if the result is the same, does it matter?
Isn't his point about looking at the object through a prism a subjective experience? It understands that the prism has distorted the position of the object and understands the position of where the object really is. The chatbot understood and used the words of having a subjective experience. [Post edited 25 Jun 15:17]
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I agree if the result is the same it doesn't really matter. That's not the same as saying AI is conscious, but there we are. I just wanted to make that distinction - it stuck out like a sore thumb to me in your previous posts - and I don't think you've proved he thinks they're conscious in the way we are. If anything he contradicts himself a bit on that point.
Perhaps it's better described as Artificial Consciousness rather than our True Consciousness. Once we understand what consciousness is and how it arises, maybe then we'd be able to manufacture True Consciousness (if, for example, it were a case of certain cells coming together... or if a form of consciousness is in all things and just needs to be switched on in some way. But we're a long way off that).
I'll be honest, I'm more interested in the study of consciousness than AI, but they're both very interesting topics. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 15:38 - Jun 25 with 219 views | blueasfook |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 14:51 - Jun 25 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I really don't care about arrows one way or the other Blueas. I just want you to go away and stop trying to derail this otherwise interesting and thought-provoking debate. |
"Oh look, here comes blueas to downvote everything I post without comment. Once a prick always a prick."
Yeah that's someone who doesn't care about arrows alright. I will say no more. You have a lovely day anyway.. | |
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| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 15:45 - Jun 25 with 212 views | nodge_blue |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 15:34 - Jun 25 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I agree if the result is the same it doesn't really matter. That's not the same as saying AI is conscious, but there we are. I just wanted to make that distinction - it stuck out like a sore thumb to me in your previous posts - and I don't think you've proved he thinks they're conscious in the way we are. If anything he contradicts himself a bit on that point.
Perhaps it's better described as Artificial Consciousness rather than our True Consciousness. Once we understand what consciousness is and how it arises, maybe then we'd be able to manufacture True Consciousness (if, for example, it were a case of certain cells coming together... or if a form of consciousness is in all things and just needs to be switched on in some way. But we're a long way off that).
I'll be honest, I'm more interested in the study of consciousness than AI, but they're both very interesting topics. |
I think you are probably someone who will never accept AI consciousness no matter how close it is to humans, simply because it's not organic and ultimately its all ones and zeros.
Whereas we have electronic pulses going through an organic brain. Not that I fully understand how the brain works.
But the counter argument is that both will come to be seen as valid forms of consciousness (whatever that means) and produce the same end results. GH says that he thinks our very definition of consciousness may have to change.
Anyway look - let's leave it there. My main concern is the impact of AI rather than its state of consciousness which is an opposite view to yourself maybe. [Post edited 25 Jun 15:46]
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| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 15:53 - Jun 25 with 201 views | NthQldITFC |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 15:45 - Jun 25 by nodge_blue |
I think you are probably someone who will never accept AI consciousness no matter how close it is to humans, simply because it's not organic and ultimately its all ones and zeros.
Whereas we have electronic pulses going through an organic brain. Not that I fully understand how the brain works.
But the counter argument is that both will come to be seen as valid forms of consciousness (whatever that means) and produce the same end results. GH says that he thinks our very definition of consciousness may have to change.
Anyway look - let's leave it there. My main concern is the impact of AI rather than its state of consciousness which is an opposite view to yourself maybe. [Post edited 25 Jun 15:46]
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Great example of how to keep an interesting, high temperature discussion going on usefully without boiling over, you two. Nice one. | |
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| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 15:55 - Jun 25 with 200 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 15:38 - Jun 25 by blueasfook |
"Oh look, here comes blueas to downvote everything I post without comment. Once a prick always a prick."
Yeah that's someone who doesn't care about arrows alright. I will say no more. You have a lovely day anyway.. |
The "without comment" bit is really important. I don't care about arrows, either way, in a reasoned debate. Pricks coming in and downarrowing without offering anything constructive to the discussion, does irk me though.
That's you, that is.
I wonder, as you breathe your last breaths, if you'll look back fondly on your years and years of trolling people on TWTD as your limited time well spent. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 15:57 - Jun 25 with 190 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 15:45 - Jun 25 by nodge_blue |
I think you are probably someone who will never accept AI consciousness no matter how close it is to humans, simply because it's not organic and ultimately its all ones and zeros.
Whereas we have electronic pulses going through an organic brain. Not that I fully understand how the brain works.
But the counter argument is that both will come to be seen as valid forms of consciousness (whatever that means) and produce the same end results. GH says that he thinks our very definition of consciousness may have to change.
Anyway look - let's leave it there. My main concern is the impact of AI rather than its state of consciousness which is an opposite view to yourself maybe. [Post edited 25 Jun 15:46]
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Yep. You may well be right on all your points there. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 16:08 - Jun 25 with 174 views | nodge_blue |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:29 - Jun 25 by glasso |
Yeah sorry I should probably clarify that I don't think film making (or GOOD film making) would ever be entirely wiped out - just as in my example, there *is* still good journalism/writing out there. The issue is whether it'll be a career any more.
There was a time when good writers were well paid. Then there was a time when good writers had to churn out some s**t they weren't proud of to pay the bills while they were criminally underpaid for their good writing, and now I know loads of really, really great writers who are living on the breadline because nothing pays well any more.
I suspect it'll be the same for films. You'll be able to make great films, if you're somehow rich enough to do it as a hobby or a very badly paid job.
I think it's the same for most of us when it comes to AI. My job will still exist, but it'll be massively under-respected and underpaid because they could just ask a computer to do it. Where do we go from there? I'd make a really s**t plumber. |
Ive been a bit absorbed in the other aspect of this thread but can I say that is a truly heart breaking thing about AI. The idea that human creativity can simply and cheaply be replicated and displacing real human thinking on subjects and also in the actual creative arts.
I suspect enough humans will want that still. I will never read a book written by AI. Or listen to AI music. Not knowingly anyway. | |
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| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 16:39 - Jun 25 with 152 views | Kropotkin123 |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 11:45 - Jun 25 by nodge_blue |
Oh dear.
Why do I get flamed when I try and keep a subject on a basis of reflection about the "sensationalist" noble prize winning, AI career spanning and viewed as the godfather of AI, Geoffrey Hinton. They are not my comments they are his and others. Even Sam Altman who is the CEO of chatgpt is saying about the power of AI becoming very soon AGI and then super intelligence. He clearly is going to be more optimistic about its outcomes but even he talks about needing to control it and the potential dangers. There won't be a single point when there is consensus of things like conscious or emotive AI more an evolution of agreement.
As GH says humans have a long history of thinking they are special and created in the image of God. And we are not special. There is no reason why AI won't feel emotions in the same way we do.
I love how a few people that know about IT can totally down play it.
But Im not engaging much more. time will tell on this. But if we are not open to the potential outcomes then we shouldn't be surprised if we fall into them. |
You seem to be triggered by the word "sensationalist". I used in my reflections too. I just wanted to say that I've not used the word as a way to undermine your opinion or discredit your sources. It is just the conclusion I reach (rightly or wrongly). I didn't deem my posts as flaming you. It certainly wasn't my intention. Sorry if you interpreted my comments as negative towards you. [Post edited 25 Jun 16:41]
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| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 16:45 - Jun 25 with 140 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
It's how Terminator starts. Prepare for judgement day |  |
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| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 17:59 - Jun 25 with 116 views | glasso |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 16:08 - Jun 25 by nodge_blue |
Ive been a bit absorbed in the other aspect of this thread but can I say that is a truly heart breaking thing about AI. The idea that human creativity can simply and cheaply be replicated and displacing real human thinking on subjects and also in the actual creative arts.
I suspect enough humans will want that still. I will never read a book written by AI. Or listen to AI music. Not knowingly anyway. |
Here's hoping, mate. I think humans will still want it, too.
Some humans, anyway. I've already seen the argument from plenty that 'if you can't tell the difference, what does it matter?' And as I said before, the longer we dumb down the *actual* arts then the difference won't be great.
Personally, I can't imagine AI ever writing a restaurant review like Jay Rayner, for instance. Or a book like Hunter S. Thompson. But once we've replaced Jay Rayner with an 18 year-old kid on £20,000 a year and we start lauding appalling writers like E.L James, I might even start to fall into the category of 'who cares?' after a while. |  | | |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 19:22 - Jun 25 with 82 views | NthQldITFC |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 17:59 - Jun 25 by glasso |
Here's hoping, mate. I think humans will still want it, too.
Some humans, anyway. I've already seen the argument from plenty that 'if you can't tell the difference, what does it matter?' And as I said before, the longer we dumb down the *actual* arts then the difference won't be great.
Personally, I can't imagine AI ever writing a restaurant review like Jay Rayner, for instance. Or a book like Hunter S. Thompson. But once we've replaced Jay Rayner with an 18 year-old kid on £20,000 a year and we start lauding appalling writers like E.L James, I might even start to fall into the category of 'who cares?' after a while. |
The one good thing I think AI could do in the creative field is put the appalling Dan Brown rubbish in the bin. No compoota could write such an atrocious, sequentially coincidence-driven piece of garbage, with flat, identical dialogue for the whole 'cast' as that criminal waste of tree pulp that was (I've genuinely forgotten it's name, lol)... | |
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| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 19:49 - Jun 25 with 65 views | nodge_blue |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 19:22 - Jun 25 by NthQldITFC |
The one good thing I think AI could do in the creative field is put the appalling Dan Brown rubbish in the bin. No compoota could write such an atrocious, sequentially coincidence-driven piece of garbage, with flat, identical dialogue for the whole 'cast' as that criminal waste of tree pulp that was (I've genuinely forgotten it's name, lol)... |
Yeah but its Shakespeare compared to Jeffery Archer | |
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| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 20:07 - Jun 25 with 55 views | glasso |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 19:49 - Jun 25 by nodge_blue |
Yeah but its Shakespeare compared to Jeffery Archer |
Ah man, I think we've all just realised humans are awful so we might as well welcome our AI overlords | | | |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 20:19 - Jun 25 with 41 views | WeWereZombies |
| AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 19:22 - Jun 25 by NthQldITFC |
The one good thing I think AI could do in the creative field is put the appalling Dan Brown rubbish in the bin. No compoota could write such an atrocious, sequentially coincidence-driven piece of garbage, with flat, identical dialogue for the whole 'cast' as that criminal waste of tree pulp that was (I've genuinely forgotten it's name, lol)... |
I'll take your Dan Brown and raise you James Paterson. |  |
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