| Grealish comments 19:51 - Aug 24 with 3645 views | victorysquad |
"I felt really good. It was nice. I don't want to get into saying I didn't feel free before [at Manchester City]. Out there I could drift, I could do what I want more or less and play with a bit of freedom, take more risks. I feel like I have done that."
I wonder if this is our issue, we are sucking the life out of the players |  |
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| Grealish comments on 20:17 - Aug 24 with 2949 views | Nutkins_Return |
But we want to dominate and dominate consistently. That's why Pep and other top managers at top clubs set very very high standards in all aspects of the game. The to players can adapt and Grealish did enjoy success with City.
Yes in a team that has no chance of winning the league you can give a quality player more licence and freedom. But we don't want to be Everton, we want to be be the top Man City team of the champ.
Everyone is wanting us to change things all of a sudden. The changes have happened. It's been personnel. Actually what we need to do is understand what made us successful and stick to our principles and processes that made us so good. With better players we have every chance to kick on again. Horrible start points wise but can't just chuck it all in now | |
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| Grealish comments on 20:22 - Aug 24 with 2883 views | ArnieM |
OP: you mean are players over coached? 100% they are. That Grealish comment about having the freedom to express himself us telling. Maybe that is why we are not seeing the Jack Clarke from his Sunderland days, or Szmodics ( 30+ goals) from his Blackburn days to name but two. Maybe, McKenna is too fixated on his system and trying to mould players to fit his system rather than getting the best out of them as individuals first and foremost? |  |
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| Grealish comments on 20:26 - Aug 24 with 2836 views | blueoutlook |
| Grealish comments on 20:17 - Aug 24 by Nutkins_Return |
But we want to dominate and dominate consistently. That's why Pep and other top managers at top clubs set very very high standards in all aspects of the game. The to players can adapt and Grealish did enjoy success with City.
Yes in a team that has no chance of winning the league you can give a quality player more licence and freedom. But we don't want to be Everton, we want to be be the top Man City team of the champ.
Everyone is wanting us to change things all of a sudden. The changes have happened. It's been personnel. Actually what we need to do is understand what made us successful and stick to our principles and processes that made us so good. With better players we have every chance to kick on again. Horrible start points wise but can't just chuck it all in now |
This is exactly why Man City are struggling. No freedom. Our players are the same. The drills are drummed into them, it’s not working. Isn’t for us, isn’t for Man City. You have to let players play to their abilities. Not force stuff on them that they clearly aren’t able to cope with. Square pegs in round hole is what we have. |  | | |
| Grealish comments on 20:26 - Aug 24 with 2834 views | homer_123 |
| Grealish comments on 20:22 - Aug 24 by ArnieM |
OP: you mean are players over coached? 100% they are. That Grealish comment about having the freedom to express himself us telling. Maybe that is why we are not seeing the Jack Clarke from his Sunderland days, or Szmodics ( 30+ goals) from his Blackburn days to name but two. Maybe, McKenna is too fixated on his system and trying to mould players to fit his system rather than getting the best out of them as individuals first and foremost? |
How do you explain Chaplins, Burns, Morsy and Luongo rise?
Those players spent the majority of their careers L2, L1 and a smattering of Championship football.
Would you say they were over coached? |  |
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| Grealish comments on 20:35 - Aug 24 with 2741 views | homer_123 |
| Grealish comments on 20:26 - Aug 24 by blueoutlook |
This is exactly why Man City are struggling. No freedom. Our players are the same. The drills are drummed into them, it’s not working. Isn’t for us, isn’t for Man City. You have to let players play to their abilities. Not force stuff on them that they clearly aren’t able to cope with. Square pegs in round hole is what we have. |
It's not a lack of freedom.
There are 'patterns' of play and ways in which KM want us to play in different parts of the pitch but freedom isn't drummed out of the players. Football is a simple game and you want to make it easy for players, so having drills and patterns of play is sensible but within that framework you allow players to make decisions, you give them freedom.
Our issue is not that we don't have freedom.
We are playing with a lack of confidence and belief at the moment - which is hardly surprising given the season we have had. We are also having to replace the team, not strengthen - both of which contribute to a lack of belief and confidence.
You need both to play with freedom.
There is a very, very good reason we have been successful under KM over the last few years and we absolutely do not need to thrown the baby out with the bath water. [Post edited 24 Aug 20:38]
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| Grealish comments on 20:49 - Aug 24 with 2562 views | portmanking |
| Grealish comments on 20:26 - Aug 24 by homer_123 |
How do you explain Chaplins, Burns, Morsy and Luongo rise?
Those players spent the majority of their careers L2, L1 and a smattering of Championship football.
Would you say they were over coached? |
Perhaps they are four players that thrived on having very specific roles in said system? While others are more individualistic and like to play their football off the cuff? I think Jack Clarke is a prime example of that and why he was doomed to fail here from the outset. | | | |
| Grealish comments on 20:55 - Aug 24 with 2491 views | homer_123 |
| Grealish comments on 20:49 - Aug 24 by portmanking |
Perhaps they are four players that thrived on having very specific roles in said system? While others are more individualistic and like to play their football off the cuff? I think Jack Clarke is a prime example of that and why he was doomed to fail here from the outset. |
I posted the other day about how many players have expressed their thanks to KM as a Manager and Coach and how, during their time with ITFC, they are better players and better people.
That speaks to KM being a good coach, I wouldn't say we over coach at all. | |
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| Grealish comments on 20:57 - Aug 24 with 2462 views | portmanking |
| Grealish comments on 20:55 - Aug 24 by homer_123 |
I posted the other day about how many players have expressed their thanks to KM as a Manager and Coach and how, during their time with ITFC, they are better players and better people.
That speaks to KM being a good coach, I wouldn't say we over coach at all. |
Where did I say we did? I just said certain players will resonate with Kieran's style of coaching than others and perhaps several of our newer faces in the last 12 months simply haven't adapted/gelled? | | | |
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| Grealish comments on 20:58 - Aug 24 with 2449 views | homer_123 |
| Grealish comments on 20:57 - Aug 24 by portmanking |
Where did I say we did? I just said certain players will resonate with Kieran's style of coaching than others and perhaps several of our newer faces in the last 12 months simply haven't adapted/gelled? |
ArnieM did fella.
I didn't disagree with you. ;) | |
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| Grealish comments on 21:01 - Aug 24 with 2397 views | victorysquad |
| Grealish comments on 20:35 - Aug 24 by homer_123 |
It's not a lack of freedom.
There are 'patterns' of play and ways in which KM want us to play in different parts of the pitch but freedom isn't drummed out of the players. Football is a simple game and you want to make it easy for players, so having drills and patterns of play is sensible but within that framework you allow players to make decisions, you give them freedom.
Our issue is not that we don't have freedom.
We are playing with a lack of confidence and belief at the moment - which is hardly surprising given the season we have had. We are also having to replace the team, not strengthen - both of which contribute to a lack of belief and confidence.
You need both to play with freedom.
There is a very, very good reason we have been successful under KM over the last few years and we absolutely do not need to thrown the baby out with the bath water. [Post edited 24 Aug 20:38]
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Maybe some players are not suited (or do not like) to play in a system,
Even if they possess a certain level of talent.
You think of the Janoi and Burns partnership, you would not necessarily put these players in the same talent pool as Clarke or Philogene, but maybe they are more easily coached, take instruction better.
I still think we will come good and go on a 20 game run, but we need another leader in there and it could be Ashley that we need on the pitch.
And maybe Clarke and Philogene should just be subs, just like Omari was originally, people we can bring on and give them more license at that stage of the game [Post edited 24 Aug 21:03]
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| Grealish comments on 21:08 - Aug 24 with 2309 views | homer_123 |
| Grealish comments on 21:01 - Aug 24 by victorysquad |
Maybe some players are not suited (or do not like) to play in a system,
Even if they possess a certain level of talent.
You think of the Janoi and Burns partnership, you would not necessarily put these players in the same talent pool as Clarke or Philogene, but maybe they are more easily coached, take instruction better.
I still think we will come good and go on a 20 game run, but we need another leader in there and it could be Ashley that we need on the pitch.
And maybe Clarke and Philogene should just be subs, just like Omari was originally, people we can bring on and give them more license at that stage of the game [Post edited 24 Aug 21:03]
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Clearly there are players who benefit from more freedom on the pitch. No argument from me there.
I think my point, though, remains. We don't stifle freedom, we absolutely allow freedom within the way we play.
We don't have, say a Messi or Ronaldo, that we carry and allow complete freedom to do as they please, as they are world class creative players. We cannot afford (literally or within the way we play) that type of player.
If we take Clarke. At Sunderland he played within a system, he would have clear instructions, it's not that he was playing within the ability to roam or do as he pleased. He had structure.
However, he was playing with confidence and belief and therefore freedom and, for whatever reason, we haven't seen that in his time with Town.
I don't believe he's over coached or stifled with formation and patters of play.
He's not playing with confidence, it's as simple as that. | |
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| Grealish comments on 21:24 - Aug 24 with 2156 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Grealish comments on 20:26 - Aug 24 by blueoutlook |
This is exactly why Man City are struggling. No freedom. Our players are the same. The drills are drummed into them, it’s not working. Isn’t for us, isn’t for Man City. You have to let players play to their abilities. Not force stuff on them that they clearly aren’t able to cope with. Square pegs in round hole is what we have. |
There might be something in this. If we were not 3 games in with a new side, and the patterns have not actually been drilled yet.... | | | |
| Grealish comments on 21:26 - Aug 24 with 2139 views | portmanking |
| Grealish comments on 21:24 - Aug 24 by redrickstuhaart |
There might be something in this. If we were not 3 games in with a new side, and the patterns have not actually been drilled yet.... |
That would be true... if 10 of the 11 starters yesterday weren't with us for the entirety of last season (Palmer excepted, but he's never going to be what we need from a keeper anyhow). | | | |
| Grealish comments on 21:31 - Aug 24 with 2064 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Grealish comments on 21:26 - Aug 24 by portmanking |
That would be true... if 10 of the 11 starters yesterday weren't with us for the entirety of last season (Palmer excepted, but he's never going to be what we need from a keeper anyhow). |
Ridiculous comment.
The idea that this team has played together, found its shape and drilled patterns, with that line up, is just plainly not true.
The fact taht some players were in a squad, rarely playing, injured etc last year doesnt change that. Fundamental groups and partnerships all over the pitch have changed. And those that have not, are playing in a very different environment, both in terms of people around them, and the opposition being faced. | | | |
| Grealish comments on 21:33 - Aug 24 with 2034 views | ArnieM |
| Grealish comments on 20:26 - Aug 24 by homer_123 |
How do you explain Chaplins, Burns, Morsy and Luongo rise?
Those players spent the majority of their careers L2, L1 and a smattering of Championship football.
Would you say they were over coached? |
Its an interesting one for sure. And I certainly dont have the answer. But those players you list, weren't McKenna's signings, they were either Lamberts or Cooks I believe.
Maybe its the players we are now signing, that for some reason aren't as
coachable as the ones he inherited? I honestly dont know. But the double promotion players definitely had a consolidated " team" feel to them didn't they. I dont get that with the new influx for some reason.... | |
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| Grealish comments on 21:35 - Aug 24 with 2015 views | portmanking |
| Grealish comments on 21:31 - Aug 24 by redrickstuhaart |
Ridiculous comment.
The idea that this team has played together, found its shape and drilled patterns, with that line up, is just plainly not true.
The fact taht some players were in a squad, rarely playing, injured etc last year doesnt change that. Fundamental groups and partnerships all over the pitch have changed. And those that have not, are playing in a very different environment, both in terms of people around them, and the opposition being faced. |
Mmmm nope. Taylor and Matusiwa aside, those players have played together a lot. And *still* have zero chemistry. | | | |
| Grealish comments on 21:37 - Aug 24 with 1989 views | homer_123 |
| Grealish comments on 21:33 - Aug 24 by ArnieM |
Its an interesting one for sure. And I certainly dont have the answer. But those players you list, weren't McKenna's signings, they were either Lamberts or Cooks I believe.
Maybe its the players we are now signing, that for some reason aren't as
coachable as the ones he inherited? I honestly dont know. But the double promotion players definitely had a consolidated " team" feel to them didn't they. I dont get that with the new influx for some reason.... |
It's interesting that a player such as Azor seems to fit in, albeit after his first game where the pace took him by surprise.
I've posted already, last week, about the fact we are building a new 'team' not strengthening an existing one. It's going to take time for players to gel and get confident with each other. | |
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| Grealish comments on 21:43 - Aug 24 with 1939 views | homer_123 |
| Grealish comments on 21:35 - Aug 24 by portmanking |
Mmmm nope. Taylor and Matusiwa aside, those players have played together a lot. And *still* have zero chemistry. |
Without wanting to sound like a broken record.
Take Chappers and Burns, if we are talking chemistry, that's possibly the best example we have had under KM. Two players that knew what one another were going to do.
My original point is pertinent here. That chemistry took time AND it was build during a period where we were starting to play well, grind and get results. It didn't happen overnight - belief and confidence.
If we take Clarke as a good example, yes, he's played a fair bit, no question but he's not cemented a place, nailed down his best position with us and, for whatever reason, hasn't developed that chemistry. I think that is down to, and in no small part, that his time with us came later, he joined us as we entered the Premiership - a different ball game altogether.
As a complete aside, for me, he's 24 and I think has a lot to offer us. | |
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| Grealish comments on 22:35 - Aug 24 with 1717 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Grealish comments on 21:35 - Aug 24 by portmanking |
Mmmm nope. Taylor and Matusiwa aside, those players have played together a lot. And *still* have zero chemistry. |
Simply nonsense. The pattern and layout we played on Saturday is totally new. | | | |
| Grealish comments on 22:36 - Aug 24 with 1713 views | J2BLUE |
| Grealish comments on 20:22 - Aug 24 by ArnieM |
OP: you mean are players over coached? 100% they are. That Grealish comment about having the freedom to express himself us telling. Maybe that is why we are not seeing the Jack Clarke from his Sunderland days, or Szmodics ( 30+ goals) from his Blackburn days to name but two. Maybe, McKenna is too fixated on his system and trying to mould players to fit his system rather than getting the best out of them as individuals first and foremost? |
Never known anyone so utterly clueless just latching on to anything negative and twisting things to make it fit Town. |  |
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| Grealish comments on 23:02 - Aug 24 with 1600 views | FrimleyBlue |
| Grealish comments on 20:22 - Aug 24 by ArnieM |
OP: you mean are players over coached? 100% they are. That Grealish comment about having the freedom to express himself us telling. Maybe that is why we are not seeing the Jack Clarke from his Sunderland days, or Szmodics ( 30+ goals) from his Blackburn days to name but two. Maybe, McKenna is too fixated on his system and trying to mould players to fit his system rather than getting the best out of them as individuals first and foremost? |
Something I wonder.
Is this being done because that's what KM genuinely thinks is needed or is it more of a keep club happy as if you make a player more versatile then there's more profit to be made? ( When I say this i mean club brought players, not km brought players)
Its just weird how he took Jackson. Realised what his strengths were and we only saw him when he could utilise those strengths and he didn't try and make him something he wasn't.
With hutch. Most internationals he plays wide. For forest he came on went wide. Under KM he preferred him central but pushed wide when injury required.
Look at davis. Been the best fullback in regards to goal contributions. Attacking passes. Assists etc. Now all of a sudden trying to turn him into an inverted fullback which I don't get as we don't play with left footed wingers who need davis on the inside so that can stay outside.
KM recently said we bring players in and make the most of their strengths rather than bringing them in and making them fit our style... ( something like that)
Recruitment the past 18 months do not match his words imo. [Post edited 25 Aug 8:07]
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| Grealish comments on 08:06 - Aug 25 with 988 views | ArnieM |
I'd say making Davis play as an inverted full bavk has definitely dampened his previous strengths in overlapping play and assists potential. But McKenna has done this presumably to give Clarke the space to work his magic, but which aym is anything like as potent as Davis as a wingback. | |
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| Grealish comments on 08:10 - Aug 25 with 955 views | HighgateBlue |
| Grealish comments on 08:06 - Aug 25 by ArnieM |
I'd say making Davis play as an inverted full bavk has definitely dampened his previous strengths in overlapping play and assists potential. But McKenna has done this presumably to give Clarke the space to work his magic, but which aym is anything like as potent as Davis as a wingback. |
Clarke's magic seems to be to make our attacking threat disappear. Or at least to saw it in half.
Davis was incredibly productive down the left last time we were in the Championship. To mess with that is folly. To mess with that in a desperate attempt to get something out of a lightweight flop like Clarke is to compound the folly.
I don't understand how we have spent so much to get so much worse. In some areas of the pitch (Davis most obviously) the answer was just to leave well alone. But not even that was done right.
Warren Buffett often repeats the old saying that "to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail". Just because you /can/ tinker with something, doesn't mean that you should.
I really struggle to understand what has gone wrong at the club over the last 15 months. But whatever has gone wrong has involved binning a lot of talent and downgrading at great cost. |  | | |
| Grealish comments on 08:14 - Aug 25 with 935 views | FrimleyBlue |
| Grealish comments on 08:10 - Aug 25 by HighgateBlue |
Clarke's magic seems to be to make our attacking threat disappear. Or at least to saw it in half.
Davis was incredibly productive down the left last time we were in the Championship. To mess with that is folly. To mess with that in a desperate attempt to get something out of a lightweight flop like Clarke is to compound the folly.
I don't understand how we have spent so much to get so much worse. In some areas of the pitch (Davis most obviously) the answer was just to leave well alone. But not even that was done right.
Warren Buffett often repeats the old saying that "to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail". Just because you /can/ tinker with something, doesn't mean that you should.
I really struggle to understand what has gone wrong at the club over the last 15 months. But whatever has gone wrong has involved binning a lot of talent and downgrading at great cost. |
Guess the one thing we'd always wonder is should we have banked the cash, played our promotion team in the prem with a couple of signings, taken the hammerings, but restarted this season fresh, with the same core of players happy to be at the club, given morsy another couple of years to transition the midfield with a new cm etc etc etc
One thing for sure really, we 'll never really understand the way we 'attacked' the transfer market in our prem windows. | |
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| Grealish comments on 08:16 - Aug 25 with 911 views | ArnieM |
| Grealish comments on 08:10 - Aug 25 by HighgateBlue |
Clarke's magic seems to be to make our attacking threat disappear. Or at least to saw it in half.
Davis was incredibly productive down the left last time we were in the Championship. To mess with that is folly. To mess with that in a desperate attempt to get something out of a lightweight flop like Clarke is to compound the folly.
I don't understand how we have spent so much to get so much worse. In some areas of the pitch (Davis most obviously) the answer was just to leave well alone. But not even that was done right.
Warren Buffett often repeats the old saying that "to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail". Just because you /can/ tinker with something, doesn't mean that you should.
I really struggle to understand what has gone wrong at the club over the last 15 months. But whatever has gone wrong has involved binning a lot of talent and downgrading at great cost. |
This was really my point, which you have explained far better. | |
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