| State of Palestine 22:05 - Sep 21 with 5437 views | SitfcB |
Genuine post and question.
Can someone explain what it means, why it’s been done and what they hope will come from it?
Is it a good or bad thing?
Thank you. [Post edited 21 Sep 22:05]
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| State of Palestine on 08:11 - Sep 22 with 1797 views | redrickstuhaart |
| State of Palestine on 08:01 - Sep 22 by Nthsuffolkblue |
I agree. There should be no need for refugees nor asylum seekers at all. However, they do exist and countries generally should accept them and in a much fairer share than the world currently does.
I did think that argument might be why countries in the Middle East not wanting to take them could be accurate. However, in the context of the statement that they do not want Palestine recognised as a country (which appears flatly untrue), I am not sure the statement is correct anyway. |
The issue here is we are allied, in this instance, with the country creating the refugees. A country recognised by the UN now as engaging in genocide. |  | | |
| State of Palestine on 08:30 - Sep 22 with 1756 views | DJR |
| State of Palestine on 07:25 - Sep 22 by Zx1988 |
Listening to R4 this morning, the Zionists are apopleptic about it.
If nothing else, that'll do for me. |
I don't think the use of the term Zionist is helpful or accurate in this context.
Zionism is a Jewish political movement which began in the 19th century with the aim of the establishing a Jewish homeland. But these days its meaning has been extended to those who support the existence of the state of Israel, although the term can be used pejoratively.
As such, I am a Zionist but I also support the creation of a Palestinian state. There are many Jews (whether Israeli or diaspora) who feel the same.
In current times, they may well be in a minority but I know one Jewish person who is staunchly in this camp, and there are also people like former PM Ehud Olmert.
https://www.tovima.com/stories/ehud-olmert-there-is-no-alternative-to-the-two-st
In my view, you would have been more accurate to refer to supporters of current Israeli government policy. |  | | |
| State of Palestine on 08:32 - Sep 22 with 1751 views | DJR |
| State of Palestine on 00:29 - Sep 22 by KingsCrossBlue |
Nice to see historically accurate posts, without the normal pile on. I don’t normally post, but my wife is a Jew. She has several Hebrew tattoos of old poetry and Yiddish slang. In the last three weeks she has been spat at twice and punched in the face. She’s not Jewish, just born a Jew but wants to celebrate her heritage. Shes not alone, there are a lot of folk in the same boat. The situation is nuts, we all know Gaza is horrendous, but this decision by starmer is difficult to swallow. I think a previous poster alluded to it - but no other Middle Eastern country wants it recognised or take refugees / provide aid. Oct 7th isn’t a justification for killing children, but you can’t ever, ever help hamas via the backdoor |
I am really sorry to hear that.
This shouldn't be happening. Full stop. | | | |
| State of Palestine on 08:52 - Sep 22 with 1689 views | Pinewoodblue |
TWTD really is not the place to research a subject you genuinely want to learn more about, especially when it is well known that there is potential for conflict between posters
The type of conflict Phil would, I am sure, prefer to be discussed elsewhere. |  |
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| State of Palestine on 09:24 - Sep 22 with 1651 views | bsw72 |
Basically the modern dispute dates back to the end of the Ottoman era and British rule across the region.
As usual a lot of this is the West's (well, particularly Britain's) fault . . . rcognising the State of Palestine is effectively reinforcing the Arabic political and legal claim to sovereign statehood over disputed territories, the more states that recognise the more it strengthens that claim.
Some points in hisatory which may help, the Balfour Declaration in 1917 saw Britain endorse a “national home for the Jewish people” in what was then Palestine, encouraging Jewish immigration and increasing tensions with the Arab population. We then followed this up with the Mandate Administartion from 1920-1948, until we decided we had done enough, were a bit broken after WW2 and made it the UNs problem. CLassic political hospital pass.
It was at this time the UN created the 1947 Partition Plan which proposed separate Jewish and Arab states; Jewish leaders accepted it, Arab leaders rejected it, and the 1948 war that followed produced the state of Israel and the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians (the Nakba).
As a side note my wife's grandfather was serving in the British army in Palestine and had left the King David Hotel about an hour before the bomb in 1946. He had survived Italy and went on to survive Korea. It was meeting and talking with him that first piqued my interest in the region and it's recent political history, together with the fact I have (distant) jewish ancestry.
1967 saw the 6 days war, which Israel launched pre‑emptive strikes and defeated the armed forces of Egypt, Jordan and Syria (hmmm, there's a pattern to this), capturing the Sinai Peninsula and Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. The war put a large Palestinian population under Israeli military occupation and led to settlement expansion in these occupied areas. This is where our chums at the UN come in again, with Resolution 242, which called for withdrawal from occupied territories and mutual recognition.
Now that the UK, France and several other countries have formally recognised Palestine alongside many UN signatories (I think 150+ from the 193), Palestinians gain a bigger diplomatic platform: clearer legitimacy, the ability to open or upgrade missions, greater access to international organisations and legal foreign aid, plus in theory increased leverage in negotiations.
The big challenge is that recognition alone does not resolve the practical problems on the ground, such as control of territory, security arrangements, settlements, and the refugee question. The power of the Israeli military and the fact it is in occupation in the region is a challenge, as is the fact that Hamas is current the political leadership of Palestine (ahead of the now legitimate PLO / PA) as it is still considered a terrorist organisation.
In short while it is clearly not a bad thing, Middle East politics is such a hugely complex and volatile situation it is hard to see what the next moves will be.
The sad truth is that I do not think it brings the end of Israeli/Arab conflict any closer, and the suffering of the innocent people on both sides of the conflict will carry on at the hands of politicians and terrorists, which in turn continues to radicalize groups on both sides and so the circle continues. [Post edited 22 Sep 9:30]
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| State of Palestine on 09:58 - Sep 22 with 1576 views | Guthrum |
It's a largely symbolic gesture, with little practical effect beyond increasing the Palestinian Authority's representative in London. The PA being the Fatah administration in the West Bank, not Hamas (their great rivals) in Gaza. Hamas are still legally proscribed in the UK as a terrorist organisation.
May make a slight difference to how finances and aid can be organised.
It gives them a bit more support in the UN, but the USA still holds a veto in the Security Council.
Is mainly an affirmation of support for a two-state solution, in the face of Israeli moves to reoccupy areas of Palestinian territory, without any particular commitment as to what that may look like or how it could be achieved. |  |
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| Can they enter the Eurovision Song Contest now? (n/t) on 10:02 - Sep 22 with 1553 views | Bloots |
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| "Trite Sixth-Form Politics” - TWTD User (Sept 2025) |
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| Can they enter the Eurovision Song Contest now? (n/t) on 10:11 - Sep 22 with 1522 views | bsw72 |
| Can they enter the Eurovision Song Contest now? (n/t) on 10:02 - Sep 22 by Bloots |
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Now *these* are the types of questions we should hold our leaders accountable to answer . . . | | | |
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| State of Palestine on 11:43 - Sep 22 with 1353 views | bazza |
Quite ironic , we’ve waited until it’s a complete state, to announce it as one. |  | | |
| State of Palestine on 11:51 - Sep 22 with 1320 views | SouthBucksBlue |
If you and/or anyone else are readers, Jeremy Bowen’s The Making of the Modern Middle East is a great and informative read on the subject. | | | |
| State of Palestine on 12:02 - Sep 22 with 1275 views | DJR |
The two-state solution appears to have been off the table for a long time.
Gideon Levy, a prominent left-wing Jew who writes for Haaretz, came to this conclusion a long time ago, and advocates for a one-state solution.
Here's the opening to a speech he made to the Oxford Union in 2023, as well as a link to the whole of that speech for anyone interested.
https://medium.com/illumination/two-state-solution-oxford-union-debate-by-gideon
Almost everything said already, all the lies all the propaganda, and also some truth. But I think that it’s time to put an end to the masquerade. The masquerade that has been going on now for at least 50 years. This masquerade contains two assumptions which both are pure lies. First, Israel has the intention to go for the two-state solution. Israel never had an intention to go for a two-state solution not even for a single moment. It is an almost historical irony to see now official representatives of Israel coming and defending the two-state solution. what stopped you for 50 years to go for the two-state solution? There was not one single Israeli government that stopped for one day from building those criminal settlements. The second lie is that one state doesn’t exist. ladies and gentlemen, the one-state has existed now for 50 years. The only question is what kind of state is it is it a democracy or is it an apartheid state? that’s the only question that is still open. [Post edited 22 Sep 12:04]
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| State of Palestine on 12:23 - Sep 22 with 1212 views | WeWereZombies |
| State of Palestine on 08:01 - Sep 22 by Nthsuffolkblue |
I agree. There should be no need for refugees nor asylum seekers at all. However, they do exist and countries generally should accept them and in a much fairer share than the world currently does.
I did think that argument might be why countries in the Middle East not wanting to take them could be accurate. However, in the context of the statement that they do not want Palestine recognised as a country (which appears flatly untrue), I am not sure the statement is correct anyway. |
The percentages must have changed in the last decade but this Wikipedia section gives some idea of the complexity of Palestinian population distribution:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#Demographics
Note that in 2015 almost a third of Palestinians were living in Jordan, are they substantially refugees or asylum seekers of just people living close to their homeland but not in it for the sake of a peaceable life ? Note also that one in five Israeli citizens are Palestinians, some undoubtedly feel like refugees in the nation they are registered with. And there are Palestinian Jews. I think one of the reasons Egypt refused to open their border with Gaza a year or so ago was fear of mission creep by the Netanyahu administration which would effectively lead to a loss of land around the Philadelphi corridor as well as making it easier for smugglers to operate and for Hamas and Al Qaeda terrorists to extend further operations on Egyptian soil (thereby prompting Israeli military reprisals.) |  |
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| State of Palestine on 15:37 - Sep 22 with 931 views | DJR |
| State of Palestine on 12:23 - Sep 22 by WeWereZombies |
The percentages must have changed in the last decade but this Wikipedia section gives some idea of the complexity of Palestinian population distribution:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#Demographics
Note that in 2015 almost a third of Palestinians were living in Jordan, are they substantially refugees or asylum seekers of just people living close to their homeland but not in it for the sake of a peaceable life ? Note also that one in five Israeli citizens are Palestinians, some undoubtedly feel like refugees in the nation they are registered with. And there are Palestinian Jews. I think one of the reasons Egypt refused to open their border with Gaza a year or so ago was fear of mission creep by the Netanyahu administration which would effectively lead to a loss of land around the Philadelphi corridor as well as making it easier for smugglers to operate and for Hamas and Al Qaeda terrorists to extend further operations on Egyptian soil (thereby prompting Israeli military reprisals.) |
Another issue with respect to refugees in other lands, and one of the main objections that the Israeli government has to UNWRA, is encapsulated in the following extract from a fairly recent BBC article.
"Unwra has long been criticised by Israel, with many there objecting to its very existence.
The fate of refugees has been a core issue in the Arab-Israeli conflict, with Palestinians harbouring a dream of returning to homes in historic Palestine, parts of which are now in Israel.
Israel rejects their claim and criticises the set-up of Unrwa for allowing refugee status to be inherited by successive generations.
It says this entrenches Palestinians as refugees, and encourages their hopes of a right of return." | | | |
| State of Palestine on 16:36 - Sep 22 with 830 views | Clapham_Junction |
| State of Palestine on 15:37 - Sep 22 by DJR |
Another issue with respect to refugees in other lands, and one of the main objections that the Israeli government has to UNWRA, is encapsulated in the following extract from a fairly recent BBC article.
"Unwra has long been criticised by Israel, with many there objecting to its very existence.
The fate of refugees has been a core issue in the Arab-Israeli conflict, with Palestinians harbouring a dream of returning to homes in historic Palestine, parts of which are now in Israel.
Israel rejects their claim and criticises the set-up of Unrwa for allowing refugee status to be inherited by successive generations.
It says this entrenches Palestinians as refugees, and encourages their hopes of a right of return." |
TBH, I agree with this to some extent. It is somewhat absurd that Palestinians who fled or were forced to leave areas that are now part of Israel and ended up in Gaza or the West Bank are still treated as refugees. I think it's a massive failure by their political leadership to not accept reality and properly integrate them into society.
The 1940s saw a huge amount of border redrawing and population displacements; millions of Germans were forced out of what is now western Poland; Poles were forced out of what is now western Belarus and Ukraine; India was divided. Similar had happened after WWI, with around two million people being forced to move between Greece and Turkey. They are not still treated as refugees. |  | | |
| State of Palestine on 17:11 - Sep 22 with 733 views | redrickstuhaart |
| State of Palestine on 16:36 - Sep 22 by Clapham_Junction |
TBH, I agree with this to some extent. It is somewhat absurd that Palestinians who fled or were forced to leave areas that are now part of Israel and ended up in Gaza or the West Bank are still treated as refugees. I think it's a massive failure by their political leadership to not accept reality and properly integrate them into society.
The 1940s saw a huge amount of border redrawing and population displacements; millions of Germans were forced out of what is now western Poland; Poles were forced out of what is now western Belarus and Ukraine; India was divided. Similar had happened after WWI, with around two million people being forced to move between Greece and Turkey. They are not still treated as refugees. |
But folks in Gaza and parts of the West Bank ar ebasically under Israeli control anyway, and denied statehood by Israel. So they are inevitably refugees. They have no state citizenship at all. | | | |
| State of Palestine on 17:31 - Sep 22 with 698 views | MaySixth |
No |  |
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| State of Palestine on 17:40 - Sep 22 with 667 views | mellowblue |
| State of Palestine on 22:55 - Sep 21 by RIPbobby |
Look at the map of that area of the world before ww2 and you will see why the Palestinians are mad. Well what is left of them. |
bear in mind, the Palestine map area pre WW2 does not represent any form of Palestinian Arab control or designation as a homeland purely for the Palestinian Arabs. It was a loose land carve up post WW1 given the name Palestine. During the 20's and 30's It was controlled by us trying and failing to keep order between the Jews and the Arabs. Before 1918 it had been part of the Ottoman empire (Turkey) for centuries. | | | |
| State of Palestine on 18:02 - Sep 22 with 618 views | DJR |
| State of Palestine on 16:36 - Sep 22 by Clapham_Junction |
TBH, I agree with this to some extent. It is somewhat absurd that Palestinians who fled or were forced to leave areas that are now part of Israel and ended up in Gaza or the West Bank are still treated as refugees. I think it's a massive failure by their political leadership to not accept reality and properly integrate them into society.
The 1940s saw a huge amount of border redrawing and population displacements; millions of Germans were forced out of what is now western Poland; Poles were forced out of what is now western Belarus and Ukraine; India was divided. Similar had happened after WWI, with around two million people being forced to move between Greece and Turkey. They are not still treated as refugees. |
There is something in what you say, especially in relation to those not in Israel, the West Bank or Gaza but I suppose the difference between Mandated Palestine and Europe after the war is that the UN had a role in the area prior to the creation of the State of Israel in the sense there was the UN Partition Plan for Palestine which was adopted by the UN in 1947.
According to Wikipedia, UNRWA was established in 1949 by the UN to provide relief to all refugees resulting from the 1948 conflict; this initially included Jewish and Arab Palestine refugees inside the State of Israel until the Israeli government took over this responsibility in 1952. And I suppose when it was created, it was never envisaged that the need for it and a settlement of the conflict would still be outstanding over 70 years later. [Post edited 22 Sep 18:03]
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| State of Palestine on 20:02 - Sep 22 with 462 views | Clapham_Junction |
| State of Palestine on 17:11 - Sep 22 by redrickstuhaart |
But folks in Gaza and parts of the West Bank ar ebasically under Israeli control anyway, and denied statehood by Israel. So they are inevitably refugees. They have no state citizenship at all. |
They weren't from 1949 to 1967. Jordan had fully annexed the West Bank during that period. | | | |
| State of Palestine on 20:16 - Sep 22 with 428 views | Clapham_Junction |
| State of Palestine on 17:11 - Sep 22 by redrickstuhaart |
But folks in Gaza and parts of the West Bank ar ebasically under Israeli control anyway, and denied statehood by Israel. So they are inevitably refugees. They have no state citizenship at all. |
They weren't from 1949 to 1967. Jordan had fully annexed the West Bank during that period. | | | |
| State of Palestine on 21:30 - Sep 22 with 327 views | bluejacko |
So,when/if there is a state of Palistine and they have ‘free’ elections and the people vote in hamas doesn’t that leave the countries that have recognised the state in a bit of a pickle to say the least! | | | |
| State of Palestine on 21:33 - Sep 22 with 316 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| State of Palestine on 21:30 - Sep 22 by bluejacko |
So,when/if there is a state of Palistine and they have ‘free’ elections and the people vote in hamas doesn’t that leave the countries that have recognised the state in a bit of a pickle to say the least! |
A situation that is in play in many other countries. Afghanistan springs to mind. Recognised as a country but its government not recognised? |  |
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| State of Palestine on 22:03 - Sep 22 with 253 views | NthQldITFC |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cpw1qkyke4nt
Pressed further on whether this might mean Israel will annex parts of the West Bank, Danon says: "I don't like the word annexation, I call it applying sovereignty."
I don't like the word genocide, I call it applying bullets. |  |
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| State of Palestine on 22:29 - Sep 22 with 192 views | bluejacko |
| State of Palestine on 21:33 - Sep 22 by Nthsuffolkblue |
A situation that is in play in many other countries. Afghanistan springs to mind. Recognised as a country but its government not recognised? |
Fair one,trouble is though a hamas govt will still have the avowed intent to wipe Israel off the face of the earth! It would be a never ending circle! | | | |
| State of Palestine on 22:59 - Sep 22 with 146 views | mellowblue |
| State of Palestine on 12:23 - Sep 22 by WeWereZombies |
The percentages must have changed in the last decade but this Wikipedia section gives some idea of the complexity of Palestinian population distribution:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#Demographics
Note that in 2015 almost a third of Palestinians were living in Jordan, are they substantially refugees or asylum seekers of just people living close to their homeland but not in it for the sake of a peaceable life ? Note also that one in five Israeli citizens are Palestinians, some undoubtedly feel like refugees in the nation they are registered with. And there are Palestinian Jews. I think one of the reasons Egypt refused to open their border with Gaza a year or so ago was fear of mission creep by the Netanyahu administration which would effectively lead to a loss of land around the Philadelphi corridor as well as making it easier for smugglers to operate and for Hamas and Al Qaeda terrorists to extend further operations on Egyptian soil (thereby prompting Israeli military reprisals.) |
Many Palestinians have been in Jordan 50-70 years now after the 1948 and 1967 Arab- Israeli wars and have had plenty of time too integrate and many have. Many who didn't followed Arafat to Lebanon when Jordan were forced to expel the PLO or face potential war with Israel. | | | |
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