| Two-tier policing? 20:06 - Jun 4 with 3385 views | StokieBlue |
As the investigation into the conduct of Hampshire police rightly continues after the horrible policing around the death of Nowak, some other things are coming to light which don't look great for the narrative pushed by Farage in his emergency speech and in the HoC.
"For the last year data was available, Hampshire’s officers were 5.1 times more likely to stop and search someone black than a white person. The average disproportionality rate in England and Wales was 3.8 times."
"The racial disparity has increased in recent years in Hampshire, with black people 4.8 times more likely to be stopped than a white person in 2024-5, up from 4.1 times in 2023-4. The force has also increased its use of stop and search, up from 12,000 two years earlier."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk
Before anyone starts, this isn't politicising the horrible events that have happened, it's using evidence to highlight that the incitement and narrative that Farage and others are spinning is nonsense. Lessons will have to be learnt and changes will have to be made but to claim it's an anti-white bias simply isn't true when one looks at the evidence.
SB |  |
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| Two-tier policing? on 10:05 - Jun 5 with 853 views | lowhouseblue |
| Two-tier policing? on 10:00 - Jun 5 by Axeldalai_lama |
Aren't you deliberately missing the point again? No one is saying on this actual one off specific case that there wasn't issues potentially with race and treating people differently based upon it.
But that was theoretically based on outcome, that needs looking into and investigating, again as people have said. The absolute commonality between the two is that any individual stop and search by the police is the same thing as you are complaining about in this case, obviously with vastly different horrific results on this one occasion. Black people should be treated x and stopped more, potential victims of racism should be treated y and helped more, or whatever.
You cannot extropalte that white people are being treated differently and badly based on one individual tragic case, and not do the same about black people when it is clearly happening again and again and again via stop and search. Both things might be right or wrong, but they are based on the same chain of thought. |
"Black people should be treated x and stopped more"
you can't just assume that. the police may be using the exact same criteria for everyone when they decide who to stop - high crime area, particular behaviour etc - and still end up with figures that are different between groups. there is no necessary implication that any decision is based on ethnicity. [Post edited 5 Jun 10:08]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Two-tier policing? on 10:07 - Jun 5 with 841 views | lowhouseblue |
| Two-tier policing? on 10:02 - Jun 5 by reusersfreekicks |
This is how he discussed it before:
"The same last words as George Floyd.
I expect to see players taking the knee before kick-off this season. If the principle is the same, then surely the response should be too." |
i'm discussing what's on this thread. i can post on a topic without it being a character reference for other posters on the same thread. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Two-tier policing? on 10:32 - Jun 5 with 783 views | TownieRob |
| Two-tier policing? on 10:02 - Jun 5 by reusersfreekicks |
This is how he discussed it before:
"The same last words as George Floyd.
I expect to see players taking the knee before kick-off this season. If the principle is the same, then surely the response should be too." |
My point was that George Floyd quite rightly received worldwide attention, scrutiny and demands for accountability. I didn't think it was unreasonable to ask why the same level of concern was shown here.
You might disagree with that view, and that's fair enough, but I'm still not sure what it has to do with the points I've made in this discussion. |  | | |
| Two-tier policing? on 10:35 - Jun 5 with 776 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Two-tier policing? on 10:32 - Jun 5 by TownieRob |
My point was that George Floyd quite rightly received worldwide attention, scrutiny and demands for accountability. I didn't think it was unreasonable to ask why the same level of concern was shown here.
You might disagree with that view, and that's fair enough, but I'm still not sure what it has to do with the points I've made in this discussion. |
One was the unlawful killing of a black man by police, following a long pattern of such issues against black people in the US.
The other was a murder by a weapon obsessed civilian with no obvious pattern or racial element. | |
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| Two-tier policing? on 11:25 - Jun 5 with 668 views | lowhouseblue |
| Two-tier policing? on 10:35 - Jun 5 by redrickstuhaart |
One was the unlawful killing of a black man by police, following a long pattern of such issues against black people in the US.
The other was a murder by a weapon obsessed civilian with no obvious pattern or racial element. |
well, we need the inquiry to tell us why the officers got it so wrong. why they seemed to have arrived with fixed assumptions, why they believed the murderer without question, why they ignored the victim, and why they handcuffed and arrested an incapacitated and dying man. you seem already to know all the answers and to have classified the tragedy under "nothing to see here".
too many people in politics are trying to frame this as just another example of people inflaming the mob, rather than engaging with what went wrong and why. the guardian continues on that line - there can't be an issue with the hampshire police because they stop and search lots of bme people. don't look over here, look over there. [Post edited 5 Jun 11:26]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Two-tier policing? on 11:35 - Jun 5 with 639 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Two-tier policing? on 10:35 - Jun 5 by redrickstuhaart |
One was the unlawful killing of a black man by police, following a long pattern of such issues against black people in the US.
The other was a murder by a weapon obsessed civilian with no obvious pattern or racial element. |
Strictly speaking, the murderer brought the racial element into it by accusing his victim of making a racist insult to him.
An inquiry will attempt to establish whether this false accusation of racism affected the police officers attitude to the victims cries of help
I wanted to stay out of these threads tbh. I find the point scoring from both sides of the debate utterly distasteful. |  |
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| Two-tier policing? on 11:47 - Jun 5 with 609 views | Whos_blue |
| Two-tier policing? on 11:35 - Jun 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Strictly speaking, the murderer brought the racial element into it by accusing his victim of making a racist insult to him.
An inquiry will attempt to establish whether this false accusation of racism affected the police officers attitude to the victims cries of help
I wanted to stay out of these threads tbh. I find the point scoring from both sides of the debate utterly distasteful. |
But Glassers,to stay silent is surely as bad as supporting Farage's vile rhetoric.
It has to be called out.
We talk about "both sidesing" a lot here and it's the reality of today's polarised political discourse, but there is only "One side" that disgustingly used this tragedy as a call to arms to create racial division.
I can't sit back and stay out of that and to be honest and with respect, I can't believe you can either.
The narrative the (far) right is pushing here is shameful.
It seems their sympathy to the Novak family is secondary to the opportunity to push their hate filled agenda.
That's not movement I want to be anywhere near and I'll maintain my commitment to doing what I can to oppose it. |  |
| "I don't want to be like everyone else. That's why I'm a mod, see?" |
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| Two-tier policing? on 11:49 - Jun 5 with 605 views | WestStanderLaLaLa |
| Two-tier policing? on 11:25 - Jun 5 by lowhouseblue |
well, we need the inquiry to tell us why the officers got it so wrong. why they seemed to have arrived with fixed assumptions, why they believed the murderer without question, why they ignored the victim, and why they handcuffed and arrested an incapacitated and dying man. you seem already to know all the answers and to have classified the tragedy under "nothing to see here".
too many people in politics are trying to frame this as just another example of people inflaming the mob, rather than engaging with what went wrong and why. the guardian continues on that line - there can't be an issue with the hampshire police because they stop and search lots of bme people. don't look over here, look over there. [Post edited 5 Jun 11:26]
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My reading of the summing up is that the judge was sympathetic to the police actions.
“Another consequence of those lies is that the attending police officers honestly
believed that there were reasonable grounds for suspecting Henry had
committed an offence and arrested him with the consequence he was
handcuffed for about a minute before his condition further deteriorated and the
arresting officer began CPR. The police were given a convincing but wholly false
narrative of the incident. It was dark and Henry was wearing a dark top. The
entry damage caused by the knife through it, would not have been obvious.
Whilst there was visible blood on Henry, it would not have clearly been seen
coming from that wound and the clearly visible facial wound was not life-
threatening. Henry was complaining that he had been stabbed and was
struggling to breathe but that would not have necessarily told the officers how
serious the situation had become. It is the experience of the criminal courts that
sometimes, someone arrested and handcuffed will feign injury in the hope they
may be released. These police officers were faced with having to make quick
decisions in pressurised circumstances about the best way to act. The genuine
shock to the particular police officer, when he realised that he had been giving
CPR to Henry when he had a serious chest wound tends to show that he was
doing his best in a very difficult situation.”
We’ll have to wait and see what the enquiry brings |  |
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| Two-tier policing? on 11:52 - Jun 5 with 584 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Two-tier policing? on 11:25 - Jun 5 by lowhouseblue |
well, we need the inquiry to tell us why the officers got it so wrong. why they seemed to have arrived with fixed assumptions, why they believed the murderer without question, why they ignored the victim, and why they handcuffed and arrested an incapacitated and dying man. you seem already to know all the answers and to have classified the tragedy under "nothing to see here".
too many people in politics are trying to frame this as just another example of people inflaming the mob, rather than engaging with what went wrong and why. the guardian continues on that line - there can't be an issue with the hampshire police because they stop and search lots of bme people. don't look over here, look over there. [Post edited 5 Jun 11:26]
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But there is a process. It is happening. Meanwhile lots are quite deliberately enflaming the mob on the basis of nothing substantive at all. It is utterly intentional and dishonest.
Right wing media are putting stuff out from which it is clear they have that intent and are actively ignoring the sound information available from the judge and pathologist. | |
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| Two-tier policing? on 11:57 - Jun 5 with 550 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Two-tier policing? on 11:47 - Jun 5 by Whos_blue |
But Glassers,to stay silent is surely as bad as supporting Farage's vile rhetoric.
It has to be called out.
We talk about "both sidesing" a lot here and it's the reality of today's polarised political discourse, but there is only "One side" that disgustingly used this tragedy as a call to arms to create racial division.
I can't sit back and stay out of that and to be honest and with respect, I can't believe you can either.
The narrative the (far) right is pushing here is shameful.
It seems their sympathy to the Novak family is secondary to the opportunity to push their hate filled agenda.
That's not movement I want to be anywhere near and I'll maintain my commitment to doing what I can to oppose it. |
I agree. Farage’s politicisation of this tragic murder is vomit inducing and should be called out. His cold rage response was incitement to riot and he’s got away with this sort of thing far too often, Likewise Tommy Robinson. | |
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| Two-tier policing? on 12:00 - Jun 5 with 543 views | StokieBlue |
| Two-tier policing? on 11:35 - Jun 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Strictly speaking, the murderer brought the racial element into it by accusing his victim of making a racist insult to him.
An inquiry will attempt to establish whether this false accusation of racism affected the police officers attitude to the victims cries of help
I wanted to stay out of these threads tbh. I find the point scoring from both sides of the debate utterly distasteful. |
Where is the point scoring?
This thread is highlighting that Farage was inciting violence based on facts that are clearly untrue.
Should that not be highlighted and challenged given the scenes that followed in Southampton after his "Emergency Address"?
SB | |
| Avatar - M101 - Pinwheel Galaxy |
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| Two-tier policing? on 12:02 - Jun 5 with 526 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Two-tier policing? on 11:47 - Jun 5 by Whos_blue |
But Glassers,to stay silent is surely as bad as supporting Farage's vile rhetoric.
It has to be called out.
We talk about "both sidesing" a lot here and it's the reality of today's polarised political discourse, but there is only "One side" that disgustingly used this tragedy as a call to arms to create racial division.
I can't sit back and stay out of that and to be honest and with respect, I can't believe you can either.
The narrative the (far) right is pushing here is shameful.
It seems their sympathy to the Novak family is secondary to the opportunity to push their hate filled agenda.
That's not movement I want to be anywhere near and I'll maintain my commitment to doing what I can to oppose it. |
Well said |  | | |
| Two-tier policing? on 12:09 - Jun 5 with 486 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Two-tier policing? on 12:00 - Jun 5 by StokieBlue |
Where is the point scoring?
This thread is highlighting that Farage was inciting violence based on facts that are clearly untrue.
Should that not be highlighted and challenged given the scenes that followed in Southampton after his "Emergency Address"?
SB |
Two-tier policing? by StokieBlue 5 Jun 7:40Your point has pretty much been confirmed by the two posters who didn't like my post but refused to engage with the evidence or content.
SB
Two-tier policing? by reusersfreekicks 5 Jun 9:39You are trying to be subtle but are still open to the Farage agenda of using this incident to stoke up hatred and division.
Poor show
I’ll leave it there. | |
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| Two-tier policing? on 12:13 - Jun 5 with 478 views | lowhouseblue |
| Two-tier policing? on 11:52 - Jun 5 by redrickstuhaart |
But there is a process. It is happening. Meanwhile lots are quite deliberately enflaming the mob on the basis of nothing substantive at all. It is utterly intentional and dishonest.
Right wing media are putting stuff out from which it is clear they have that intent and are actively ignoring the sound information available from the judge and pathologist. |
as i said 'we need the inquiry'.
but we do need to recognise that, very widely, public revulsion is real and trust is greatly damaged. yes the far right seek to exploit that, but the far right aren't the story here, and politically trying to make them the story just tells everyone else that you don't share their values.
there is now a significant list of instances in which, very widely, policing in england is not perceived as having been even-handed. there needs to be a serious, honest and searching engagement with why that is so. writing it off as a far right mirage, and trying to make it all just another example of the badness of the far right, won't wash. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Two-tier policing? on 12:16 - Jun 5 with 455 views | lowhouseblue |
| Two-tier policing? on 11:49 - Jun 5 by WestStanderLaLaLa |
My reading of the summing up is that the judge was sympathetic to the police actions.
“Another consequence of those lies is that the attending police officers honestly
believed that there were reasonable grounds for suspecting Henry had
committed an offence and arrested him with the consequence he was
handcuffed for about a minute before his condition further deteriorated and the
arresting officer began CPR. The police were given a convincing but wholly false
narrative of the incident. It was dark and Henry was wearing a dark top. The
entry damage caused by the knife through it, would not have been obvious.
Whilst there was visible blood on Henry, it would not have clearly been seen
coming from that wound and the clearly visible facial wound was not life-
threatening. Henry was complaining that he had been stabbed and was
struggling to breathe but that would not have necessarily told the officers how
serious the situation had become. It is the experience of the criminal courts that
sometimes, someone arrested and handcuffed will feign injury in the hope they
may be released. These police officers were faced with having to make quick
decisions in pressurised circumstances about the best way to act. The genuine
shock to the particular police officer, when he realised that he had been giving
CPR to Henry when he had a serious chest wound tends to show that he was
doing his best in a very difficult situation.”
We’ll have to wait and see what the enquiry brings |
equally, I've seen long serving officers express real shock at what occurred. we'll see what the enquiry finds. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Two-tier policing? on 12:21 - Jun 5 with 440 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Two-tier policing? on 12:13 - Jun 5 by lowhouseblue |
as i said 'we need the inquiry'.
but we do need to recognise that, very widely, public revulsion is real and trust is greatly damaged. yes the far right seek to exploit that, but the far right aren't the story here, and politically trying to make them the story just tells everyone else that you don't share their values.
there is now a significant list of instances in which, very widely, policing in england is not perceived as having been even-handed. there needs to be a serious, honest and searching engagement with why that is so. writing it off as a far right mirage, and trying to make it all just another example of the badness of the far right, won't wash. |
The misinformation continues. This is a narrative being put out, not something based in fact or reason. If you sit back and watch people being drawn in by innuendo and confirmation bias you are complicit. | |
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| Two-tier policing? on 12:24 - Jun 5 with 420 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Two-tier policing? on 12:09 - Jun 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Two-tier policing? by StokieBlue 5 Jun 7:40Your point has pretty much been confirmed by the two posters who didn't like my post but refused to engage with the evidence or content.
SB
Two-tier policing? by reusersfreekicks 5 Jun 9:39You are trying to be subtle but are still open to the Farage agenda of using this incident to stoke up hatred and division.
Poor show
I’ll leave it there. |
Stand by my posts
Not point scoring
Just zero tolerance of the hatred and division apologism
And for you with your extensive history on this board to call out others for point scoring is beyond irony
Leave me out of your smug faux superiority complex
Edited for typos [Post edited 5 Jun 12:28]
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| Two-tier policing? on 12:25 - Jun 5 with 409 views | lowhouseblue |
| Two-tier policing? on 12:21 - Jun 5 by redrickstuhaart |
The misinformation continues. This is a narrative being put out, not something based in fact or reason. If you sit back and watch people being drawn in by innuendo and confirmation bias you are complicit. |
what was the 'misinformation'? what is the 'narrative being put out'?
if you want to have grown up discussions you have to actually express your arguments - not just try and dismiss stuff with smears. [Post edited 5 Jun 12:27]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Two-tier policing? on 12:39 - Jun 5 with 355 views | bartyg |
| Two-tier policing? on 12:13 - Jun 5 by lowhouseblue |
as i said 'we need the inquiry'.
but we do need to recognise that, very widely, public revulsion is real and trust is greatly damaged. yes the far right seek to exploit that, but the far right aren't the story here, and politically trying to make them the story just tells everyone else that you don't share their values.
there is now a significant list of instances in which, very widely, policing in england is not perceived as having been even-handed. there needs to be a serious, honest and searching engagement with why that is so. writing it off as a far right mirage, and trying to make it all just another example of the badness of the far right, won't wash. |
Oh dear, it's a "legitimate concerns" argument. |  |
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| Two-tier policing? (n/t) on 12:42 - Jun 5 with 335 views | StokieBlue |
| Two-tier policing? on 12:09 - Jun 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Two-tier policing? by StokieBlue 5 Jun 7:40Your point has pretty much been confirmed by the two posters who didn't like my post but refused to engage with the evidence or content.
SB
Two-tier policing? by reusersfreekicks 5 Jun 9:39You are trying to be subtle but are still open to the Farage agenda of using this incident to stoke up hatred and division.
Poor show
I’ll leave it there. |
My initial post was fair and balanced, it was downvoted by two posters without comment, why can that not be highlighted?
There aren't two sides here. There are the facts and evidence and there is a false narrative.
SB [Post edited 5 Jun 12:49]
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| Avatar - M101 - Pinwheel Galaxy |
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| Two-tier policing? on 12:55 - Jun 5 with 278 views | lowhouseblue |
| Two-tier policing? on 12:21 - Jun 5 by redrickstuhaart |
The misinformation continues. This is a narrative being put out, not something based in fact or reason. If you sit back and watch people being drawn in by innuendo and confirmation bias you are complicit. |
perhaps this is the bit you think is misinformation:
"there is now a significant list of instances in which, very widely, policing in england is not perceived as having been even-handed."
you really think that is 'misinformation' - that that it isn't widely perceived? politically, just wishing away inconvenient stuff never works.
the instances i had in mind are the ban on maccabi tel aviv supporters and everything that came out prior to the departure of the chief constable; police passivity in response to the 2022 riots in leicester and the 2024 riots in birmingham; the npcc guidance that police shouldn't be colour blind; and the systematic failure of public authorities including the police to act against child grooming gangs.
are you really saying that there isn't a wide spread public perception in those instances that the police weren't even-handed? [Post edited 5 Jun 12:58]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Two-tier policing? on 12:57 - Jun 5 with 263 views | lowhouseblue |
| Two-tier policing? on 12:39 - Jun 5 by bartyg |
Oh dear, it's a "legitimate concerns" argument. |
you mean real stuff that matters to real people? but they're all just stupid oiks to be sneered at by the left aren't they so who cares.
all that inconvenient stuff, just say it's lies and it'll go away. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Two-tier policing? on 13:07 - Jun 5 with 229 views | leitrimblue |
| Two-tier policing? on 12:57 - Jun 5 by lowhouseblue |
you mean real stuff that matters to real people? but they're all just stupid oiks to be sneered at by the left aren't they so who cares.
all that inconvenient stuff, just say it's lies and it'll go away. |
'To be sneered at by the left' Aren't you a life time Labour supporter?
I also find your use of the term 'stupid oiks' interesting.. I wonder if you could clarify who exactly you are referring to? |  | | |
| Two-tier policing? on 13:15 - Jun 5 with 177 views | lowhouseblue |
| Two-tier policing? on 13:07 - Jun 5 by leitrimblue |
'To be sneered at by the left' Aren't you a life time Labour supporter?
I also find your use of the term 'stupid oiks' interesting.. I wonder if you could clarify who exactly you are referring to? |
the people whose views are dismissed with the 'legitimate concerns' sneer.
the labour leadership is very clear that these are real and serious issues. most of the things i listed - which others on here have dismissed as not real - the government is taking, or has taken, action on. [Post edited 5 Jun 13:19]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Two-tier policing? on 13:30 - Jun 5 with 116 views | TownieRob |
| Two-tier policing? on 10:35 - Jun 5 by redrickstuhaart |
One was the unlawful killing of a black man by police, following a long pattern of such issues against black people in the US.
The other was a murder by a weapon obsessed civilian with no obvious pattern or racial element. |
I wasn't comparing the crimes themselves, I was comparing the scrutiny of police conduct.
The question here isn't whether a civilian committed a crime. The question is whether the police response was appropriate once they were dealing with someone who said he'd been stabbed. | | | |
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