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It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:41 - Jul 17 by SWLondonBlue93
You've obviously decided that this is a binary issue and Tuchel can do no wrong, so this is a waste of time, but if you think putting six defenders on the pitch is the best way to see out a game then I don't know what to say.
We couldn't cope with Argentina crosses. Our wingers were already playing full back. That was before the subs.
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It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:53 - Jul 17 with 1171 views
It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:43 - Jul 17 by DJR
I think things are more deep-rooted than a change in coach. After all, Tuchel joins a list of foreign coaches who were meant to change things.
Did you see my earlier post which quoted Barney Roney who echoed the point I made earlier that English players are not great at retaining possession in a way that the top national teams are?
[Post edited 17 Jul 9:47]
I think we’re getting into really strange territory here where almost unanimously the respected football press have firmly laid the blame with Tuchel’s tactics.
Pretty much every single ex player has said the same.
And today we have the BBC and the athletic confirming many of the England players found his tactics baffling - which chimes with the candid post match comments too.
Yet there’s a handful of people on a message board who think the opposite…as you said, everyone is entitled to an opinion but not everyone’s opinion needs to be treated equally.
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It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:54 - Jul 17 with 1165 views
It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:53 - Jul 17 by nrb1985
I think we’re getting into really strange territory here where almost unanimously the respected football press have firmly laid the blame with Tuchel’s tactics.
Pretty much every single ex player has said the same.
And today we have the BBC and the athletic confirming many of the England players found his tactics baffling - which chimes with the candid post match comments too.
Yet there’s a handful of people on a message board who think the opposite…as you said, everyone is entitled to an opinion but not everyone’s opinion needs to be treated equally.
Take it up with Barney Roney.
And if you think opinions on football should be confined to "the experts", TWTD might as well cease to exist.
The sad thing for me these days is that rather than merely disagreeing with a person, people cast aspersions on a person merely for having a different view.
It goes on constantly on TWTD and I suppose is proof of just how intolerant people are these days.
Indeed, I sometimes wonder whether I should just give up TWTD, which is the only social media I use.
[Post edited 17 Jul 10:47]
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It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:14 - Jul 17 with 1099 views
It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:53 - Jul 17 by nrb1985
I think we’re getting into really strange territory here where almost unanimously the respected football press have firmly laid the blame with Tuchel’s tactics.
Pretty much every single ex player has said the same.
And today we have the BBC and the athletic confirming many of the England players found his tactics baffling - which chimes with the candid post match comments too.
Yet there’s a handful of people on a message board who think the opposite…as you said, everyone is entitled to an opinion but not everyone’s opinion needs to be treated equally.
Ah but what do ex-players know, it's not like they've ever played football
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It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:16 - Jul 17 with 1094 views
It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:56 - Jul 17 by DJR
Take it up with Barney Roney.
And if you think opinions on football should be confined to "the experts", TWTD might as well cease to exist.
The sad thing for me these days is that rather than merely disagreeing with a person, people cast aspersions on a person merely for having a different view.
It goes on constantly on TWTD and I suppose is proof of just how intolerant people are these days.
Indeed, I sometimes wonder whether I should just give up TWTD, which is the only social media I use.
[Post edited 17 Jul 10:47]
I haven’t said that, I’ve said I don’t give everyone’s opinion the same weight and nor should I.
In the same way if my doctor prescribed me something I wouldn’t then go and get an opinion from mumsnet.
My simple question to JD, and you in fact, is that given what seems to be coming from the players themselves why do you still think you know better?
Really odd position to take.
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It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:19 - Jul 17 with 1078 views
It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:16 - Jul 17 by nrb1985
I haven’t said that, I’ve said I don’t give everyone’s opinion the same weight and nor should I.
In the same way if my doctor prescribed me something I wouldn’t then go and get an opinion from mumsnet.
My simple question to JD, and you in fact, is that given what seems to be coming from the players themselves why do you still think you know better?
Really odd position to take.
The main point I have made on this thread is to question the ability of the England players to retain possession of the ball, whatever the players, in the situation they were in, a point Barney Roney made.
But he also offered support for the main minority view on this thread.
And surely you are not saying that he is not an expert?
[Post edited 17 Jul 10:37]
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It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 11:43 - Jul 17 with 997 views
It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:19 - Jul 17 by DJR
The main point I have made on this thread is to question the ability of the England players to retain possession of the ball, whatever the players, in the situation they were in, a point Barney Roney made.
But he also offered support for the main minority view on this thread.
And surely you are not saying that he is not an expert?
[Post edited 17 Jul 10:37]
You’ll appreciate, given what most of us saw with our own eyes, and what now seems to be coming from the players themselves - it’s difficult for me to give to much credence to what an almost lone journo is saying.
It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:35 - Jul 17 by jasondozzell
It amazes me how many people don't watch the game closely.
The narrative that we went defensive after the subs and it's Tuchel's fault is just mad.
We collapsed immediately after our goal. Tuchel no doubt (and for the umpteenth time this tournament) brassed off that we instantly started worrying about being the player to screw up the lead.
Argentina had 3 good chances before Konsa came on on 72.
What the subs told you was Tuchel knew the players didn't have the belief or control to deal with the situation. We had to go defensive because we couldn't keep the ball.
This is psychological and the need to blame Tuchel just reveals that the real problem is players taking responsibility. It's why Jude's comments after Norway were poor.
Tuchel isn't daft. He's an elite coach. I think he cut a frustrated figure during the tournament because the players went against his direction.
That first half against Croatia. The fearful patterns.
Players are pampered at huge PL clubs. And are they as good as they think they are?
Argentina were ice cool. No panic. The opposite of us.
[Post edited 17 Jul 8:41]
To be honest, I think it's a bit of both. You're right, the players did back off before the subs... but then 6 defenders wasn't the answer to that. Everyone could see it wasn't going to work and there was too long to hold out while Argentina pummel us. We needed an outlet or two. Fresh legs who can run to try and stop some of the crosses... and also chase/hold up clearances so they don't just keep coming back in.
It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:56 - Jul 17 by DJR
Take it up with Barney Roney.
And if you think opinions on football should be confined to "the experts", TWTD might as well cease to exist.
The sad thing for me these days is that rather than merely disagreeing with a person, people cast aspersions on a person merely for having a different view.
It goes on constantly on TWTD and I suppose is proof of just how intolerant people are these days.
Indeed, I sometimes wonder whether I should just give up TWTD, which is the only social media I use.
[Post edited 17 Jul 10:47]
Intolerant? Don’t be such a massive d1ckhead. Honestly! I bet you like Battenberg too!
PS. It’s the coaching/Tuchel - those same players aren’t negative Nellie’s with their clubs. Kane didn’t score 3000 goals this season by wandering around in no man’s land just ahead of his fullbacks. It’s was a combination of primarily an inability to look after the ball (coaching), mentality (set by manager & reinforced by coaches) and instructions/tactical decisions (by manager & coaches).
It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 13:25 - Jul 18 by Swansea_Blue
Intolerant? Don’t be such a massive d1ckhead. Honestly! I bet you like Battenberg too!
PS. It’s the coaching/Tuchel - those same players aren’t negative Nellie’s with their clubs. Kane didn’t score 3000 goals this season by wandering around in no man’s land just ahead of his fullbacks. It’s was a combination of primarily an inability to look after the ball (coaching), mentality (set by manager & reinforced by coaches) and instructions/tactical decisions (by manager & coaches).
Joe Hart and others also pointed out yesterday he left most of his ball playing players at home in favour of more pacy/powerful players like Madueke. He also didn’t give Mainoo, who can handle the ball, a single minute.
Shambles of a coaching display compounded by some absolutely absurd comments post match. Trying gaslight a nation.
I doubt he makes the euros, think trust between him and players is probably broken.
[Post edited 18 Jul 14:00]
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It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 15:09 - Jul 18 with 675 views
It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:40 - Jul 16 by jasondozzell
Agreed but I think Tuchel's exasperation (albeit very diplomatic in tone) is because we will not learn.
Too much hype and believing in it.
He thought the players dropped too deep. So brought on three defenders for attackers and no out ball or pace AT ALL. His words and actions seem slightly conflicting, can’t imagine that’s getting us up the pitch!
Both things can be true and probably are.., would be nice if he owned what was clearly a dreadful set of decisions, and the bits he controls.
Coaches like Warnock describe it as pure Sunday league levels of panic, I’m EPL double winner and 0.000001% in the world at FPL over many decades. I agree with him.
Fair to say me and Warnock have 100 years experience between us, we know stuff (like the best chip shop in torquey).
I’m not saying me and big W are England’s answer - but we might be.
Watkins would have terrified Argentina - when you 100% make the same set of decisions that the opposition would make for you, you’re likely doing something wrong.
With 10 men or against poor opposition with less time left .., maybe.., my phone lit up (in real time) I don’t know a single person at the time thought we could sit with no out ball for 35 minutes with zero out ball, and their quality.., not one person, and only one of them has his badges, these are just football people with decades watching the game.
It wasn’t Southgate levels - it was far worse - Tuchel swallowed.
I think I heard someone say we have WEAK people around our managers at this level, who won’t speak out against a narrative. Maybe it was simon Jordan.
He’s 100% right.
There’s only one thing worse than what happened. It’s the knowledge that WE short listed Barry for our managers job!
That’s terrifying and blows my mind ..,, even in the games we won.., not counting Croatia where he was very direct and talked sense; he sounded like a little lost school boy .., like he was just saying words.., not of which related to the game or tactics.
He 100% isn’t a manager!!! Too much of a yes man.., try telling Tuchel he’s got it wrong, in real time, hard to do, but that’s what LEADERS do, they take risks and do what’s necessary.
Barry won’t ever be a manager of any note.
That Ashton thought he and OGS might, blows my mind - Ashton is SO poor at knowing what elite looks like.
Seam the channel with McKenna and thinks HE is the IQ in the room .., and it’s starting to become blindingly obvious, he isn’t, and never was.
Get a feeling we got the best Ashton can do in GON, faint praise, but we dodged two Ashton bullets.
And yes. Before you ask. Me and Warnock would do Town and England .., in our sleep, twice on Tuesdays.
We missed out with Warnock - he has a soft spot a mile wide for us, 15 years ago he’d have done v well I’d think.
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It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 16:10 - Jul 18 with 602 views
It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 13:55 - Jul 18 by nrb1985
Joe Hart and others also pointed out yesterday he left most of his ball playing players at home in favour of more pacy/powerful players like Madueke. He also didn’t give Mainoo, who can handle the ball, a single minute.
Shambles of a coaching display compounded by some absolutely absurd comments post match. Trying gaslight a nation.
I doubt he makes the euros, think trust between him and players is probably broken.
[Post edited 18 Jul 14:00]
It was all a bit odd wasn’t it. I know Mainoo‘s young still, but he had a good black end to the season under Carrick. Rice was dead on his feet after his illnesss and with his hamstring issue yet he doesn’t get a look in. Tuchel’s no McKenna that’s for sure. He’d have refreshed legs when needed.
It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 16:10 - Jul 18 by Swansea_Blue
It was all a bit odd wasn’t it. I know Mainoo‘s young still, but he had a good black end to the season under Carrick. Rice was dead on his feet after his illnesss and with his hamstring issue yet he doesn’t get a look in. Tuchel’s no McKenna that’s for sure. He’d have refreshed legs when needed.
He did put fresh legs on, it was just two CBs
The team we actually finished that game with on the pitch was an absolute joke if you look at it. Every single CB in the squad and trying to win the game with Dan Burn in both boxes, embarrassing.
It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 16:10 - Jul 18 by Swansea_Blue
It was all a bit odd wasn’t it. I know Mainoo‘s young still, but he had a good black end to the season under Carrick. Rice was dead on his feet after his illnesss and with his hamstring issue yet he doesn’t get a look in. Tuchel’s no McKenna that’s for sure. He’d have refreshed legs when needed.
Mainoo also played all the knockout games inc. the final at Euro 2024. So not that inexperienced!
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It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 16:56 - Jul 18 with 550 views
It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 16:44 - Jul 18 by nrb1985
Mainoo also played all the knockout games inc. the final at Euro 2024. So not that inexperienced!
I watched a few tactical videos on that last 20 minutes. Although we were under pressure as a back 4 we defended so much better than when we had 6 CBs in the pitch, no one knew who their man was and it was total chaos. Stones was actually playing really well but Konsa and Burns introduction confused all the zones.
It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 16:56 - Jul 18 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior
I watched a few tactical videos on that last 20 minutes. Although we were under pressure as a back 4 we defended so much better than when we had 6 CBs in the pitch, no one knew who their man was and it was total chaos. Stones was actually playing really well but Konsa and Burns introduction confused all the zones.
Sounds about right.
It was beyond question the worst coaching performance I’ve ever seen in those last 40 minutes.
I would have resigned from embarrassment personally not doubled down on some bollox about DNA etc.
Public nor players I imagine have any confidence in him, so as mentioned I doubt he lasts to the Euros.
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It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 17:34 - Jul 18 with 517 views
It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 17:24 - Jul 18 by nrb1985
Sounds about right.
It was beyond question the worst coaching performance I’ve ever seen in those last 40 minutes.
I would have resigned from embarrassment personally not doubled down on some bollox about DNA etc.
Public nor players I imagine have any confidence in him, so as mentioned I doubt he lasts to the Euros.
Not the best look when a lot of players who are technically good on the ball were left out of the squad as well. I really think the FA might have underestimated the fan reaction and court of public opinion about what we all saw.
What Tuchel did was so much worse than anything Southgate ever did.
Southgate's team sat deep in that final VS Italy, because Italy forced them back- Tuchel made an active choice against the reigning world champions, with approximately half an hour left to play, to sit deep with a five at the back and flat four in midfield, with a team comprised of 4 centre backs, 2 left backs, a defensive midfeilder, two numbers tens and a false 9...
Let's play devils advocate and say, Tuchel had no choice, we had to sit deep and weather the storm- OK? Where was the outball? It was proven time and time again that the weakness in that Argentina side was down the flanks- why not slot Bellingham back into an authodox midfield role, ask Kane as the centre forward to sit almost like an AMC and stick two of Saka/Morgan/Rashford/Watkins high and wide and leave them there to exploit the space behind the full backs, offer a consistent pacey out ball when sh*t got though and drag about those two clowns of centre backs?
Tuchel was hired SPECIFICALLY to be the difference tactically in these moments- we were told that his experience in big club games would prove the difference.
In reality, Tommy T might as well have been Mick McCarthy, Tony Pullis or any other Dinosaur manager, wearing a rubber mask.
I only learned he had signed a new contract before the tournament, AFTER the Argentina game- I had assumed and hoped, that would be the last we saw of him. Absolutely gutted he's getting another opportunity.
[Post edited 18 Jul 17:51]
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It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 17:55 - Jul 18 with 491 views
It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 15:09 - Jul 18 by darkhorse28
He thought the players dropped too deep. So brought on three defenders for attackers and no out ball or pace AT ALL. His words and actions seem slightly conflicting, can’t imagine that’s getting us up the pitch!
Both things can be true and probably are.., would be nice if he owned what was clearly a dreadful set of decisions, and the bits he controls.
Coaches like Warnock describe it as pure Sunday league levels of panic, I’m EPL double winner and 0.000001% in the world at FPL over many decades. I agree with him.
Fair to say me and Warnock have 100 years experience between us, we know stuff (like the best chip shop in torquey).
I’m not saying me and big W are England’s answer - but we might be.
Watkins would have terrified Argentina - when you 100% make the same set of decisions that the opposition would make for you, you’re likely doing something wrong.
With 10 men or against poor opposition with less time left .., maybe.., my phone lit up (in real time) I don’t know a single person at the time thought we could sit with no out ball for 35 minutes with zero out ball, and their quality.., not one person, and only one of them has his badges, these are just football people with decades watching the game.
It wasn’t Southgate levels - it was far worse - Tuchel swallowed.
I think I heard someone say we have WEAK people around our managers at this level, who won’t speak out against a narrative. Maybe it was simon Jordan.
He’s 100% right.
There’s only one thing worse than what happened. It’s the knowledge that WE short listed Barry for our managers job!
That’s terrifying and blows my mind ..,, even in the games we won.., not counting Croatia where he was very direct and talked sense; he sounded like a little lost school boy .., like he was just saying words.., not of which related to the game or tactics.
He 100% isn’t a manager!!! Too much of a yes man.., try telling Tuchel he’s got it wrong, in real time, hard to do, but that’s what LEADERS do, they take risks and do what’s necessary.
Barry won’t ever be a manager of any note.
That Ashton thought he and OGS might, blows my mind - Ashton is SO poor at knowing what elite looks like.
Seam the channel with McKenna and thinks HE is the IQ in the room .., and it’s starting to become blindingly obvious, he isn’t, and never was.
Get a feeling we got the best Ashton can do in GON, faint praise, but we dodged two Ashton bullets.
And yes. Before you ask. Me and Warnock would do Town and England .., in our sleep, twice on Tuesdays.
We missed out with Warnock - he has a soft spot a mile wide for us, 15 years ago he’d have done v well I’d think.
Wow. Well done for somehow managing an anti Mark Ashton rant in the middle of an England thread. That's some going, even for yourself.
It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 17:34 - Jul 18 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior
Not the best look when a lot of players who are technically good on the ball were left out of the squad as well. I really think the FA might have underestimated the fan reaction and court of public opinion about what we all saw.
I think if we don’t do well in autumn internationals there will be some fan backlash and he’ll be gone.
I’d rather have Southgate back tbh - at least we all liked him! And I say that as somebody who has had enormous respect for TT until now.
If he’d come out and owned it I think we’d have all moved on by now.
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It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 18:44 - Jul 18 with 442 views
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