| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' 08:35 - Jul 16 with 6872 views | jasondozzell |
He was narked after Norway and rightly.
I think he felt he had to go 5 at the back because we were so passive and weren't able to follow direction. No bite in midfield after the goal.
It's a psychological thing. English players are weak mentally compared to international counterparts.
Anyway glad we can get back to Town and proper football.
[Post edited 16 Jul 8:36]
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:37 - Jul 16 with 3121 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
Its both.
Mental preparation and strength comes under the managers remit too. |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:40 - Jul 16 with 3081 views | jasondozzell |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:37 - Jul 16 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Its both.
Mental preparation and strength comes under the managers remit too. |
Agreed but I think Tuchel's exasperation (albeit very diplomatic in tone) is because we will not learn.
Too much hype and believing in it. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:43 - Jul 16 with 3054 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:40 - Jul 16 by jasondozzell |
Agreed but I think Tuchel's exasperation (albeit very diplomatic in tone) is because we will not learn.
Too much hype and believing in it. |
Terrible subs though. | |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:45 - Jul 16 with 3020 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
I mean the players always have to take some responsibility as they are the ones playing.
But Tuchel got that so wrong last night. He gave Argentina exactly what they wanted, bet they couldn't believe their luck. |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:47 - Jul 16 with 2998 views | Swansea_Blue |
I keep seeing this line, but just don’t see it. If he can’t control his players in even the most basic of situations like not sitting on the edge of your box then he shouldn’t be in management. If the players are so nervous that they have zero belief in themselves, that also falls on him as a failure to build the belief. Either way makes him a failed project and he needs to go.
He had a hydration break too if it genuinely was a case of players not following instructions. And if you’ve got players who are running on empty, he could change like for like to freshen up the midfield rather than abandon it. |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:49 - Jul 16 with 2973 views | LankHenners |
That match was possibly the most obvious case of a manager completely screwing it up that there’s ever been. |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:50 - Jul 16 with 2964 views | billlm |
Yes Argentina were getting into the game, but going defensive was always going to end up in one result so be it,
If we had made subs fresh legs kept the same formation we would have had a great chance, they had to push and more gaps would have opened up for us, both their central defenders were on bookings,
A wasted opportunity,
Enjoyed the run,
Come on town |  | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:51 - Jul 16 with 2967 views | TownieRob |
I think taking your outlet off (Gordon) and inviting pressure for 30 minutes or whatever it was, was criminal. It was a matter of when, not if Argentina scored. When they scored we didn't then have the players on the pitch to change the approach and ultimately were a sitting duck.
I think Tuchel got lots right in this WC without us ever firing but in my opinion he got it wrong last night very wrong.
As you say, roll on the PL. That's the important stuff. |  | | |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:57 - Jul 16 with 2913 views | itfc48 |
There’s a video going around on Twitter where Cesc sums it up perfectly of how a player’s mentality can change when a manager makes subs like that.
It was dreadful, we weren’t an underdog ranked 50 places below taking a shock 1-0 lead. We are a side with some of the most expensive players in world football.
It wasn’t just we parked the bus, everyone was in the box meaning the Argentinians could select whatever shooting or crossing angle they wanted. You give players of that quality those options they will eventually pick out a cross or bang one in from distance. Even if not you’re relying on the second ball after a duel in the box falling your way. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:57 - Jul 16 with 2907 views | IP1Blue |
This is solely on Tuchel!
5 at the back was the worst thing you could of done against this Argentinian side, all of a sudden from 72nd minute, they had all the ball outside of our box. Their biggest strength is midfield and have Fernandes, MacAllister and Messi who can make things happen and all love a late run into the box which we couldn’t stop because we were pushed back to our 6 yard box. There was 2/3 warning signs before there first goal, to not then change it at 1-1 is criminal.
We needed 5 in midfield to stop there midfield from playing and then had not outlet upfront to get us up the pitch. He should have swapped Rashford for Gordon and Saka/Madueke for Rogers and then if Rice was unfit, bring Mainoo on and bought Bellingham back to the 8. 4-5-1 and compact in midfield to stop them from playing and also having fresh legs outside to get us up the pitch.
His squad selection was Abysmal, people will say Mainoo didn’t play because Tuchel doesn’t think he’s good enough but then why bring him! You can’t rely on Rice/Anderson every game and then not trust you only otherr natural CM to play. Palmer showed last Euros that he can impact these big games off the bench and defo should have been there. Trent as well should have been there, ended up having to play Konsa RB as makeshift cover and same with Quansah! Chalobah by the looks of it was called up to go on holiday!
If you would have been offered Congo, Mexico and Norway to get you through to a semis, you would have bit your hand off for it. You can see off games against Mexico and Norway with 5 at the back, but against Argentina, you can’t as you play into there strengths that way.
We crumbled! | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:58 - Jul 16 with 2903 views | mikeybloo88 |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:43 - Jul 16 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Terrible subs though. |
After 10 mins of being pinned back, he should have realised the need to get back on the front foot and got fresh legs on...Kane seems unsubbable but maybe Toney or Watkins for him, Rashford for Gordon, Saka for Rogers and Mainoo for Rice would have got England playing again. Trying to cling on with tired front men gave no chance to relieve pressure |  | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:58 - Jul 16 with 2898 views | Mullet |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:49 - Jul 16 by LankHenners |
That match was possibly the most obvious case of a manager completely screwing it up that there’s ever been. |
You can always rely on him to get his politics and football completely wrong and at the most extreme end of wrong too.
It’s quite breathtaking. |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:02 - Jul 16 with 2870 views | jasondozzell |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:58 - Jul 16 by Mullet |
You can always rely on him to get his politics and football completely wrong and at the most extreme end of wrong too.
It’s quite breathtaking. |
What's more likely? A succession of elite coaches in world football (Eriksson, Capello, Hodgson, Tuchel etc.) spectacularly screw up or there's something deeper wrong with the psyche of English players? We were scared again last night. The only player who wasn't was Spence.
And you'll forgive me if I ignore the political jibe from someone who thinks the Starmer government was a success. [Post edited 16 Jul 9:03]
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:02 - Jul 16 with 2869 views | Sugito |
While Tuchel has to take some blame for his substitutions and defensive tactics, I can't believe that Pickford hasn't been getting any criticism: his positioning in Argentina's opener is horrible and also in the second he's wondering somewhere around the near post when the cross is swung in. He made a couple of good saves before the goals but has to take some blame especially for the first goal. | | | |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 09:03 - Jul 16 with 2863 views | jasondozzell |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:58 - Jul 16 by Mullet |
You can always rely on him to get his politics and football completely wrong and at the most extreme end of wrong too.
It’s quite breathtaking. |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:07 - Jul 16 with 2807 views | hype313 |
It's on Tuchel for me, 30 minutes to go and with their quality you can't just let them have free rein, fine against Mexico who don't posses the same firepower, but suicide against Argentina.
All very bizarre, the two CB's on Yellow's must have been thinking this is their lucky day.
If Southgate had done this, he would've been lambasted. |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:16 - Jul 16 with 2742 views | BseaBlue |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:07 - Jul 16 by hype313 |
It's on Tuchel for me, 30 minutes to go and with their quality you can't just let them have free rein, fine against Mexico who don't posses the same firepower, but suicide against Argentina.
All very bizarre, the two CB's on Yellow's must have been thinking this is their lucky day.
If Southgate had done this, he would've been lambasted. |
Quite right. The idea was that Tuchel would be the one to see us over the line and 'Take the Shackles off'
It was the complete opposite last night. We were in control of that match up until the point we scored. We had worked the ball into dangerous areas and nullified their threat. Defensively, we were doing ok and Anderson seemed to be doing a job on Messi.
Changing the shape and the subs absolutely killed any control we had. Gordon was a good out ball for us and then we took him off. Scaloni then made changes to adjust what we had done and we couldn't respond.
You know that you are going to have around 40 minutes of the match left with the ridiculous amount of added on time so it was suicidal to sit back like that and shut up shot. There was plenty of warning signs too with the Pickford saves and hitting the post but he still didn't change it. Counter that with the way that Spain went about their business against France and it is chalk and cheese isn't it. |  | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:18 - Jul 16 with 2720 views | hype313 |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:16 - Jul 16 by BseaBlue |
Quite right. The idea was that Tuchel would be the one to see us over the line and 'Take the Shackles off'
It was the complete opposite last night. We were in control of that match up until the point we scored. We had worked the ball into dangerous areas and nullified their threat. Defensively, we were doing ok and Anderson seemed to be doing a job on Messi.
Changing the shape and the subs absolutely killed any control we had. Gordon was a good out ball for us and then we took him off. Scaloni then made changes to adjust what we had done and we couldn't respond.
You know that you are going to have around 40 minutes of the match left with the ridiculous amount of added on time so it was suicidal to sit back like that and shut up shot. There was plenty of warning signs too with the Pickford saves and hitting the post but he still didn't change it. Counter that with the way that Spain went about their business against France and it is chalk and cheese isn't it. |
Yep, the other thing to note is that he clearly didn't have confidence in the likes of Mainoo, what was the point taking him? He's got an engine, when Rice was flagging just do a like for like replacement.
I think in the coming days Tuchel will be kicking himself. | |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:23 - Jul 16 with 2677 views | BseaBlue |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:18 - Jul 16 by hype313 |
Yep, the other thing to note is that he clearly didn't have confidence in the likes of Mainoo, what was the point taking him? He's got an engine, when Rice was flagging just do a like for like replacement.
I think in the coming days Tuchel will be kicking himself. |
I said the same last night. Outside of Casemiro, he has arguably been Man United's best player since Carrick went in but wasn't trusted to play any part. I felt with how comfortable he is on the ball that he would have suited that last night.
I think the other concern is that outside of the remarkable Mexico performance and a decent half against Croatia, we haven't really clicked this world cup have we? The idea with the squad selection was that it was meant to be a 'Team'
I'd imagine that if we had Pep in, he would get us playing with the likes of Palmer, Foden, Mainoo, Trent all playing a part. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:25 - Jul 16 with 2669 views | tiptreeblue |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:43 - Jul 16 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Terrible subs though. |
Why? He knows that they are going to sit back, partly because of fear of failure, so is he meant to put on forward thinking players who will struggle to defend as well? I honestly think he panicked which is his fault but brought on by the players | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:26 - Jul 16 with 2661 views | Dubtractor |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:49 - Jul 16 by LankHenners |
That match was possibly the most obvious case of a manager completely screwing it up that there’s ever been. |
Yep. Surprised there is even any debate.
Fine to go more compact, but you absolutely have to have a counter attacking option to keep the opposition honest. 6 defenders and no pace on the transition was only going to end one way. |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:27 - Jul 16 with 2638 views | TheGentlemanViking |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:02 - Jul 16 by jasondozzell |
What's more likely? A succession of elite coaches in world football (Eriksson, Capello, Hodgson, Tuchel etc.) spectacularly screw up or there's something deeper wrong with the psyche of English players? We were scared again last night. The only player who wasn't was Spence.
And you'll forgive me if I ignore the political jibe from someone who thinks the Starmer government was a success. [Post edited 16 Jul 9:03]
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I don't think it's to do with the mentality of the players, these guys are serial winners for their clubs, you look at the combined honours list, it's incredible, they compete at the highest level.
I think it's more that for 20+ years we haven't had an identifiable style of play, we have nothing to fall back on, no foundation of play. We have great players but no cohesive plan. Spain, Argentina, France, they are all so well drilled in their style.
We've had an absolute shambles of a defence this tournament, we've got 3x£100m centre mid players who are all trying to occupy the same space, an elite goalscorer who drops so deep to get involved and leaves us with nobody attacking the box or working the line, no relationship between the fullbacks and wingers. Our success is based on moments of brilliance from a few very talented players, it's never based on a quality tactical team performance. |  | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:28 - Jul 16 with 2613 views | Mullet |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:02 - Jul 16 by jasondozzell |
What's more likely? A succession of elite coaches in world football (Eriksson, Capello, Hodgson, Tuchel etc.) spectacularly screw up or there's something deeper wrong with the psyche of English players? We were scared again last night. The only player who wasn't was Spence.
And you'll forgive me if I ignore the political jibe from someone who thinks the Starmer government was a success. [Post edited 16 Jul 9:03]
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They didn’t even manage in the same era with the same players. You’re looking to make your half baked opinion fit, as per usual.
You can ignore facts all you like, it’s your MO | |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:29 - Jul 16 with 2612 views | SWLondonBlue93 |
He put six defenders on the pitch, for goodness sake. It was impossible for them to do anything other than sit on the edge of our box and hope for the best. Compare and contrast our subs with Spain the previous evening. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:31 - Jul 16 with 2591 views | soupytwist |
The players might not have been able or apparently willing to carry out the manager's instructions to keep going for a second goal but to make the substitutions that effectively made it impossible to do so was negligent.
Saka, Rashford, Mainoo, one of the other centre forwards could and should all have been on the pitch with explicit instructions about getting the play further up the pitch. |  | | |
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