Forum | English youth development needs an overhaul by IP1Blue

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English youth development needs an overhaul 12:22 - Jul 16 with 2514 views

Was interested to see how much English clubs spend on youth development compared to nations across Europe and a report by UEFA in 2020 shows we’re way above most nations - https://www.uefa.com/news-medi

As someone who has been going to academy games a lot in the last 15/20 years for various reasons such as family members being part academies from u9 - u16 levels this obsession of athleticism is what is killing us. Ipswich for example came out with a new tiered pillar system in what they’re looking for which placed athleticism and physicality at the top with technical ability only coming in at 3rd. You play teams in London who are 13/14 years old who are bigger and stronger than everyone at there age so it looks like they’re really good but by the time they’re 18/19 people have caught them up and get found out.

This was accelerated after France winning the World Cup in 2018 and we’ve almost gone backwards in producing footballers. Spain and Argentina produce top quality footballers whilst most of ours are very good physically but are average footballers which get found out at the top level. Unless we change our approach in English football and this obsession with physicality and don’t move to a more technical approach which gives players a chance to grow rather than kicked out for academies for being too small which happens a lot and more than people would think, I think we struggle.

We’re world class at producing non league players and amateur in producing world class players for the money that we spend on youth development. Obviously there’s a few exceptions e.g. Bellingham but overall, it’s all quite average - we’ve been very lucky the last four tournaments with our routes to semi finals / finals and unfortunately we’ve not taken this golden opportunity that we’ve had in the last 8 years.

English youth development needs an overhaul on 15:15 - Jul 16 with 470 views

Marshalls_Mullet

English youth development needs an overhaul on 14:38 - Jul 16 by IP1Blue

But in the end, they didn’t win because of there sh*thousery, the better footballing side won - once they actually locked in and stopped all of that, we couldn’t get near them and there footballing ability in midfield and Messi won them the game.

We couldn’t just rely on Bellingham/Kane to win us the game - the Spain/Argentinians of the world to me seems like they have more strings to there bow than us. I do feel someone like an Adam Wharton would have been perfect last night who can take the ball in midfield and find them cute passes and hold onto it.

Happy to agree to differ on that one.

The sh*thousery played into it for sure, keeping them in the first half.

We more than matched them for the first hour technically / footballing wise, and then gave up, which was more of a mentality issue and poor tactical decisions from the manager.

I wouldnt put Argentina in the same bracket as Spain, and I hope Spain show that in the final.

Poll:

Would Lambert have acheived better results than Cook if given the same resources

English youth development needs an overhaul on 15:18 - Jul 16 with 463 views

hype313

English youth development needs an overhaul on 15:06 - Jul 16 by Marshalls_Mullet
I wouldn't disagree. From my experience as a parent in kids football atm, the scouts are looking for big fast athletes, not technical players.

Yep, the amount of kids I see where parents say he's in an academy is baffling when I see them play, it's purely just down to size and genetics in the hope they can teach them skills.

The most ironic thing is the best player on the planet, and in history is 5'7.

Poll:

Should Muric be dropped?

English youth development needs an overhaul on 15:20 - Jul 16 with 463 views

RIPbobby

English youth development needs an overhaul on 15:15 - Jul 16 by Marshalls_Mullet
Happy to agree to differ on that one. The sh*thousery played into it for sure, keeping them in the first half. We more than matched them for the first hour technically / footballing wise, and then gave up, which was more of a mentality issue and poor tactical decisions from the manager. I wouldnt put Argentina in the same bracket as Spain, and I hope Spain show that in the final.

The fact they left de paul on the bench said to me that the argies wanted us to run our race for the first seventy minutes and bring on the quality the last twenty. They were a good watch after seventy minutes, but before that they were going through the motions and binding their time. A perfectly executed training game on their part.

We were told right from day one that they would be lenient on fouls, they adapted and we did not. We must do that in these kind of games.

English youth development needs an overhaul on 15:39 - Jul 16 with 422 views

naa

English youth development needs an overhaul on 12:56 - Jul 16 by IP1Blue

Overreaching! We spend by far and most on youth development across Europe - what about Spain, italy, Argentina who all have lower populations than us who have won top tier tournaments in last 10 years. France only have 10m more people than us as well!

Every team we should beat, we beat and every 50/50 game we have lost in the last 10 years - we couldn’t of asked for better games and we have thrown them away in key moment or by better footballing terms!

Declan rice and Anderson are good players but neither would get into Argentinas or Spains midfield - I would argue very overrated by the way media speak about him. I think it was Michael Owen who said you can make a good career now in the premier league by running a bit further than anyone else and passing the ball from A to B and he’s right

Be careful using Italy as an example! They may have won one but they got knocked out in group phase and failed to qualify at all for the last 5 tournaments.

I'd much rather be in our position than theirs.

English youth development needs an overhaul on 16:31 - Jul 16 with 401 views

OldFart71

English youth development needs an overhaul on 12:47 - Jul 16 by BseaBlue

The only thing is, a lot of the current squad will still be around for the next world cup. Out of the current squad, I'd imagine the following will be in with a chance of being there:

- James
- Guehi
- Konsa
- O'Reilly
- Spence
- Anderson
- Rice
- Gordon
- Saka
- Bellingham
- Mainoo
- Quansah
- Madueke
- Rogers
- Eze

Add in that Foden will be 30 and Palmer 28 and that is two other good options to have.

Losing Kane will be the biggest blow but I still see Bellingham as our long term 9. Strikers do seem to be an issue though and is concerning considering we have had a luxury of options there for a number of years.

Foden will be another in the long line of failed youngsters and along with players like Phillips, Grealish and Stirling will be moved on by City.
Cole Palmer in my humble opinion should have gone to the world cup.
Rice was a shadow of himself especially after the illness.
Gordon was a breath of fresh air. I thought he had a terrific tournament.

-1

English youth development needs an overhaul on 16:42 - Jul 16 with 398 views

BseaBlue

English youth development needs an overhaul on 14:53 - Jul 16 by NedPlimpton

But they're not "fairly average" are they? They're the 4th best side in the world, beat Mexico on their home soil and if it wasn't for some pretty depressing tactics against Argentina would potentially be in a world cup final. And that's without the likes of Palmer, Foden, TAA etc who have been amongst the best players in the best league in the world over the last few seasons

I genuinely get your point, but a complete overhaul of youth football for what has been a pretty successful side over the last few years would be ridiculous. As a country we're producing some of our finest talent in recent years, and are internationally more successful now than we've ever been (barring 66). Winning a Euros or World cup would be the next step and to me it feels more psychological than talent based.

[Post edited 16 Jul 14:55]

And we decided to leave three of our most technically competent footballers at home in Trent, Palmer and Foden!

It is incredibly harsh to say outside of Bellingham, we are bang average when a lot of the players are important components at very successful football clubs.

English youth development needs an overhaul on 16:45 - Jul 16 with 386 views

BseaBlue

English youth development needs an overhaul on 16:31 - Jul 16 by OldFart71
Foden will be another in the long line of failed youngsters and along with players like Phillips, Grealish and Stirling will be moved on by City. Cole Palmer in my humble opinion should have gone to the world cup. Rice was a shadow of himself especially after the illness. Gordon was a breath of fresh air. I thought he had a terrific tournament.

Failed youngster? He has won 18 major trophies in his time at City. Give me that failure any day of the week!

I agree that he hasn't quite done it with England but maybe it is just that we haven't got the best out of him in comparison to his time at Citeh. Agree regarding Rice but then we didn't trust Mainoo to play who has been fantastic at United.

English youth development needs an overhaul on 16:55 - Jul 16 with 373 views

Bluefields

English youth development needs an overhaul on 15:20 - Jul 16 by RIPbobby

Couldnt agree with you more, exactly my comments last night.

English youth development needs an overhaul on 16:56 - Jul 16 with 369 views

Bluefields

We've won the last 2 U21 Euro Champs so must be doing something right

English youth development needs an overhaul on 23:21 - Jul 16 with 301 views

armchaircritic59

English youth development needs an overhaul on 12:40 - Jul 16 by Nutkins_Return
We're hitting semi finals and finals on a regular basis and essentially overachieving in a lot of senses for our size. Annoyed we went out it I don't by the rhetoric we need to rip things up.

There is some truth in that, it is also the truth that we were the country that introduced the game as we know it, to the world, and set up the very first football association. I'd say that points to us losing our way if not too dramatically. The question is why? Well there are probably a few reasons. One of them in my opinion is the lack of the highest quality coaching. You look at Spain, nothing they do is outrageously clever. It's simple pass and move football, but done to the highest level, over laid with some flair here and there and you can bet they practice it till they're sick of it. If you can't do the basics of the game you might as well not bother. Ball control and passing should be extremely high on the list.

English youth development needs an overhaul on 00:52 - Jul 17 with 282 views

Matt_Netherlands

English youth development needs an overhaul on 12:47 - Jul 16 by BseaBlue

In terms of England’s long term number 9, Liam Delap should(!) be an absolute shoo-in. If he fails to make that his own after the promise he showed at under 21 level and with us in the prem, he will be absolutely devastated and will live to regret poor choices (like going to Chelsea over Everton or Newcastle).

English youth development needs an overhaul on 08:28 - Jul 17 with 231 views

TownieRob

This is a really interesting post, and I agree with a lot of what you've said.

Having been fortunate to have spent pretty much all of my youth in School of Excellence (showing my age)/ academy football across the local clubs, and then playing/following local and non-league football, I've seen countless players come out of academies and full-time football. It's given me a pretty reasonable perspective of the journey.

It has always felt quite cyclical to me. At one stage it was all about pace and power particualry early 2000's, then there was a period where everyone wanted to copy Spain and tiki-taka football. The pendulum then swung back towards physicality again (I think Germany were the reason at the time). So it always felt that English football is too quick to copy the latest successful nation's DNA rather than committing to its own long-term identity.

Your point about physical development particularly resonates as there always seemed to be a belief that you could coach a naturally gifted athlete to become a better footballer, but you couldn't coach a technically gifted player to suddenly become six inches taller or significantly quicker. That inevitably favoured the early developers.

Some of the best technical players I saw were actually released, dropped into adult and non-league football, learned how to use their smaller frames against men, and eventually worked their way back up the pyramid. Meanwhile, the old saying "a good big'un beats a good little'un" seemed to influence plenty of decisions of who got kept on and who didn't. Particularly when clubs 'missed' an age group for e.g. didnt have an u16 and players hand to jump from u15 to u17, that's a big jump at that age. That said and rightly or wrongly, football is only becoming more athletic, and pace, power and directness will always be difficult to play against. You only have to look at the African nations at this World Cup to see that.

So what's the answer? I'm honestly not sure there is a single answer, 'Experts' throw the word DNA around a lot, but I sometimes wonder whether having one fixed DNA is a little naive. The best teams I've watched have always had a mix. You need your flair players, your tacticians, your grafters, but you also need pace, power and athleticism because the modern game demands it.

For me, that's what a real DNA should be. Not trying to produce one type of player, but producing different types of players who complement each other. That's probably a much harder thing to achieve, but it's also what the best teams seem to get right.

It's probably where Ipswich find themselves this summer. There's been plenty of talk about adding pace and power, and rightly so, but you can't build a squad full of one profile of player. You still need the footballers, the thinkers and the technicians alongside the athletes.

Interesting times for English football, and perhaps even more so for us.

[Post edited 17 Jul 8:29]

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