| Van Oevelen 09:43 - Aug 19 with 2900 views | tractorboy1978 |
Why are we loaning him out? I don't really get it if I am honest. He's looked really good in pre season whilst Scherpen has looked a touch shaky. He would provide genuine competition that for me Walton doesn't. The fact he is off to a mid-tier La Liga side to be their number 1 says a lot. I hope it isn't one we regret. |  | | |  |
| Van Oevelen on 10:51 - Aug 19 with 771 views | TheGentlemanViking |
| Van Oevelen on 10:21 - Aug 19 by tractorboy1978 |
If Walton is a better keeper currently then why do a mid-tier La Liga side want Van Oevelen as their number 1? Walton is an average Championship goalkeeper who will be a problem for us if required to play for a prolonged period of time in the PL. Palmer is exactly the same. After a great debut against Villa he was tosh as well - he had a spell of half a dozen games where almost every shot beat him. |
Scherpen is the starting keeper, that's clear, so decisions have to made about the other keepers we have. Walton is experienced, has played Premier League football before, and deserves his place in the squad. He's the wrong side of 30 now and holds very little resale value, keeping him as our backup carries very little risk, and selling him holds very little benefit.
KVO on the other hand, is young, inexperienced and at this stage in his development needs games, as many as he can get, at a competitive level. If Scherpen plays well this season, and we hope he does, KVO would get a few cup games at best, a full season in La Liga will be so beneficial to him, and us.
For me it's a no-brainer to get him out on loan, (which it seems was always the plan), huge upside for us long-term. I've got full trust in Scherpen and Walton to deliver this season, it's one of the few areas I really don't have any concerns over, it will be interesting to see who gets the 3rd spot though, Palmer staying, Button registered or another?! |  | | |
| Van Oevelen on 10:52 - Aug 19 with 769 views | Trequartista |
It seems as if Walton was a foreign goalkeeper he would be rated higher - he had excellent season last season and deserves to be backup goalkeeper on merit this season. |  |
| |
| Van Oevelen on 10:52 - Aug 19 with 768 views | Bellevue_Blue |
| Van Oevelen on 10:16 - Aug 19 by tractorboy1978 |
No - I am looking at it through a risk management lens. You surely want your two best keepers in the building in case you need the 2nd choice keeper for whatever reason. |
But there is a risk that comes with paying 4M for a 23YO goalie that sits on the bench not playing?
The other is 31 and has previously kept a clean sheet in the Premier League.
You are talking about Walton like he's completely woeful. Had he played all season last year he would have won the Championship Golden Glove ahead of Rushworth. | | | |
| Van Oevelen on 10:53 - Aug 19 with 763 views | Hermann_eats_puffin |
| Van Oevelen on 10:20 - Aug 19 by Nutkins_Return |
The model is proven.
We either end up with a quality game ready keeper or you only have to look at what Brighton do with keepers. They have just got the best part of £25 mil for Rushworth. They probably made about £ 6 mil on Scherpen. The prem keeper loan model works.
I would like to see a Jan recall option in there though. |
I absolutely agree with this!
If we want to become an established PL team such as Brighton have done we have to copy elements of their business model.
Yes as team to cover all worries and eventualities you'd feel more comfortable keeping your three best goalkeepers at the club to cover for injuries or suspensions. But if those injuries or suspensions do not occur then your backup keepers do not gain any first team football experience (vital for a young keeper) or appreciate in value by sitting on the bench and playing U21 team games of football.
Brighton have bought in top prospect keepers for a while and then have loaned them out to get experience. Those keepers go out and gain invaluable first team experience and they either return as your new number one in due course or they appreciate in value and you sell them for a good profit. It's what they did with keepers such as Scherpen as well as Carl Rushworth. And it's what they're doing now with keepers such as James Beadle and Nils Ramming.
As far as I look at it we've signed two good keepers in the summer and I'm not going to read too much into pre season game performance because I don't think that any of those games are going to be particularly reflective of actual Premier League games.
Of our signings one is 26 and has 174 games under their belt and has played in European games and so hopefully has the experience to be able to cope with the Premier League.
The other is 23 with 92 games under their belt (but I think with only 27 of those games being in a top flight league) and will benefit greatly if they can go to another top league and play as a number 1 gaining more experience.
Also if we're looking at being like Brighton trying to establish ourselves in the PL the reality is that we will need to get good at player trading, because that's how the clubs with smaller stadiums and without global brand status and income generation can survive/compete in the PL, and so hopefully Scherpen comes in and does really well with us and then perhaps say in two years time we end up selling Scherpen for double what we bought him for and in the meantime Kayne van Oevelen goes out and gets two seasons of good loan experience and comes back to us aged 25 ready to be number one.
I'm really pleased with us signing two talented goalkeepers this summer. But part of me worries that having signed both Scherpen and van Oevelen it has given fans looking for a negative spin the opportunity for whichever keeper was given number one status a stick to beat the other one with saying we wish that the other one was in goal because they would of done better.
The truth is that neither will be perfect the same way that no goalkeeper is perfect and nor is any outfield player for that matter. The scrutiny placed on keepers is unbelievable and say a striker in a game misses a chance or two in a game it doesn't get endlessly talked about and replayed over & over in quite the same way as one slip up by a keeper does.
I really hope that the crowd gets behind him and backs Scherpen with support and does not get on his back in the same way as some people did with Muric because these things can be self perpetuating if the crowd is making nervous noises every time the balls goes near Scherpen that is not conducive to him, or anyone else for that matter, having a good performance.
Maybe it was on one of the KoA videos from the Union Berlin I'm sure that they were talking about a kind of supporters agreement whereby they sign up to support the club through thick & thin and to support the players & team and not to get on the backs of any of their own players and we could do with thinking of that in the season ahead which will come with plenty of challenges playing in the best league in the world against teams full of world class players every single game. |  | | |
| Van Oevelen on 10:55 - Aug 19 with 747 views | Gary_Knows |
I think it’s a great move for him, and real exposure in a decent league. Go and get Oscar Gil now and have him compete with Scherpen. |  |
| |
| Van Oevelen on 10:59 - Aug 19 with 729 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Van Oevelen on 10:55 - Aug 19 by Gary_Knows |
I think it’s a great move for him, and real exposure in a decent league. Go and get Oscar Gil now and have him compete with Scherpen. |
Different ball game if another keeper comes in. | | | |
| Van Oevelen on 11:04 - Aug 19 with 704 views | IPS_wich |
Too many people looking at this through purely a footballing lens. Welcome to our first dabbling in the player asset management space (and then add Ouattara and maybe Fatawu to this as well).
We're owned by asset managers and investors, this is second nature to them. Buy young players. Stick them on a five year deal and then find the best place for them to demonstrate their prowess (some with us, others out on loan). Sell them at a big profit and then rinse and repeat.
It should come as no surprise with Van Oevelen - we pretty much announced we were going to loan him out the day we signed him. If it hadn't been for injuries to Walton and Plamer we probably wouldn't have seen him in pre-season at all.
Wouldn't surprise me at all if we sell Slicker in the next year or two for $7-8m despite him never making a league appearance for us. | | | |
| Van Oevelen on 11:10 - Aug 19 with 678 views | CastroSito |
Stunning that people don't grasp this tbh. | | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Van Oevelen on 11:11 - Aug 19 with 676 views | WolfieAtTheBack |
| Van Oevelen on 11:04 - Aug 19 by IPS_wich |
Too many people looking at this through purely a footballing lens. Welcome to our first dabbling in the player asset management space (and then add Ouattara and maybe Fatawu to this as well).
We're owned by asset managers and investors, this is second nature to them. Buy young players. Stick them on a five year deal and then find the best place for them to demonstrate their prowess (some with us, others out on loan). Sell them at a big profit and then rinse and repeat.
It should come as no surprise with Van Oevelen - we pretty much announced we were going to loan him out the day we signed him. If it hadn't been for injuries to Walton and Plamer we probably wouldn't have seen him in pre-season at all.
Wouldn't surprise me at all if we sell Slicker in the next year or two for $7-8m despite him never making a league appearance for us. |
Exactly as you suggest, we are a HUGE global business now backed by finance sharks, long long gone are the days of pre KM.
I said earlier we could spend 200 - 300 m on players by January, this is petty cash to these guys, plus they will get ROI back one way or another. |  | | |
| Van Oevelen on 11:29 - Aug 19 with 626 views | Hermann_eats_puffin |
I agree with much of the above regarding the business perspective to what we are now doing but it is a change and it will take time for people to get used to it.
From a fans perspective I also find it interesting to think of what our squad will be by the end of this transfer window and who will be named in it.
I'd be very surprised if when you have a limited number of squad places we''d end up naming Scherpen, Walton and Palmer in the 25 man squad and I think I'd make Palmer the most likely to move on given the rumours that we've heard in pre season. But then Palmer departing is not just dependant on whether or not we think it's a good idea it's whether or not another team wants him and whether or not it's a move that Palmer wants to make.
We heard that over the summer Boro wanted a keeper but they've bought in Vitek from Man Utd, Wrexham wanted a keeper and they've brought Paterson from Sunderland. Now I don't know how many other Championship teams are actively looking for another keeper. People have said that WBA are interested but they bought Max O'Leary in January who I think is their current number 1 and they bought in a new number 2 this summer so whether or not they're looking for a new number 1 I don't know.
In terms of the club having a training group of keepers presumably for both specific training of the goalkeepers groups and also for training matches it seems that Button will be sticking around without being named in the 25 man squad. Plus we have Woody Williamson, Nicholas Bilokapic, George Barrett plus any other young keepers from the other age groups.
Also in terms of training right now in pre season have of me wondered whether Henry Gray would of stuck around training with us in pre season prior to his loan move to Wellington Phoenix because I don't think that the Australian A League starts up until the middle of October and so I doubt they've even started pre season yet. [Post edited 19 Aug 11:34]
| | | |
| Van Oevelen on 11:53 - Aug 19 with 570 views | NthQldITFC |
| Van Oevelen on 10:20 - Aug 19 by Nutkins_Return |
The model is proven.
We either end up with a quality game ready keeper or you only have to look at what Brighton do with keepers. They have just got the best part of £25 mil for Rushworth. They probably made about £ 6 mil on Scherpen. The prem keeper loan model works.
I would like to see a Jan recall option in there though. |
Yes, I think the move is right for immediate development reasons - I think Scherpen and Walton are effectively on a par overall, at the moment anyway, and can compete for the #1 spot - but I'd be very keen to have a January recall option.
Having said that, it's pretty unlikely that you'd need to use a third keeper anyway, and there are emergency loam possibilities too, are there not? Overall, he's probably got to be starting either here or elsewhere, and her looks very unlikely atm. |  |
| |
| Van Oevelen on 12:20 - Aug 19 with 536 views | JammyDodgerrr |
| Van Oevelen on 10:16 - Aug 19 by tractorboy1978 |
No - I am looking at it through a risk management lens. You surely want your two best keepers in the building in case you need the 2nd choice keeper for whatever reason. |
The difference between Walton and VO is miniscule. One has a high ceiling, both ability and financially, and one doesn't. It's a no brainer to loan out VO.
We don't want any second keeper playing in any scenario, but if we have to, Walton having the experience at this point it's probably a safer risk management than VO. |  |
| |
| Van Oevelen on 12:22 - Aug 19 with 534 views | brazil1982 |
| Van Oevelen on 09:57 - Aug 19 by JammyDodgerrr |
Not much point in having him sit on the bench here, get him out to get some experience and then bring him back. Same we're doing with Slicker. |
Will he be Valencia's first choice? Terrific move if he is. |  | | |
| Van Oevelen on 12:27 - Aug 19 with 523 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Van Oevelen on 12:20 - Aug 19 by JammyDodgerrr |
The difference between Walton and VO is miniscule. One has a high ceiling, both ability and financially, and one doesn't. It's a no brainer to loan out VO.
We don't want any second keeper playing in any scenario, but if we have to, Walton having the experience at this point it's probably a safer risk management than VO. |
Fair enough but the difference being "miniscule" is very much a case of 'in your opinion'. I'd suggest the difference is bigger than that given one would be off to a mid table Championship club if we chose to sell him and the other is off to play for Valencia in La Liga. [Post edited 19 Aug 12:27]
| | | |
| Van Oevelen on 12:41 - Aug 19 with 498 views | Bellevue_Blue |
| Van Oevelen on 12:27 - Aug 19 by tractorboy1978 |
Fair enough but the difference being "miniscule" is very much a case of 'in your opinion'. I'd suggest the difference is bigger than that given one would be off to a mid table Championship club if we chose to sell him and the other is off to play for Valencia in La Liga. [Post edited 19 Aug 12:27]
|
Out of interest, where do you think our Championship team would have stacked up in La Liga last season?
Valencia finished 9th ...
I suspect with Walton starting for us, we would have been no worse than 15th?
The gap isn't very big in the middle/ bottom of that league. | | | |
| Van Oevelen on 12:45 - Aug 19 with 485 views | TheGentlemanViking |
| Van Oevelen on 12:27 - Aug 19 by tractorboy1978 |
Fair enough but the difference being "miniscule" is very much a case of 'in your opinion'. I'd suggest the difference is bigger than that given one would be off to a mid table Championship club if we chose to sell him and the other is off to play for Valencia in La Liga. [Post edited 19 Aug 12:27]
|
Valencia might be a little more glamorous, but I'd say the standard between the Championship and La Liga is minimal at best. Outside of Barca and the Madrid clubs it's certainly comparable. | | | |
| Van Oevelen on 14:13 - Aug 19 with 401 views | JammyDodgerrr |
| Van Oevelen on 12:27 - Aug 19 by tractorboy1978 |
Fair enough but the difference being "miniscule" is very much a case of 'in your opinion'. I'd suggest the difference is bigger than that given one would be off to a mid table Championship club if we chose to sell him and the other is off to play for Valencia in La Liga. [Post edited 19 Aug 12:27]
|
It's not a fair comparison though, is it? Why would Valencia come in for Christian Walton? He's a totally different age and profile, and would be a lot more expensive. | |
| |
| Van Oevelen on 14:25 - Aug 19 with 369 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Van Oevelen on 12:41 - Aug 19 by Bellevue_Blue |
Out of interest, where do you think our Championship team would have stacked up in La Liga last season?
Valencia finished 9th ...
I suspect with Walton starting for us, we would have been no worse than 15th?
The gap isn't very big in the middle/ bottom of that league. |
Not really sure what point you are trying to make. Valencia are a better team than any mid-table Championship side. Blackburn, Bristol City, Stoke etc aren't finishing 9th in La Liga. Valencia finished 3 points outside of a European spot and will have ambitions to qualify for Europe this season. If they put trust in KVO to play there as number 1 then that says a lot re what they think of his ability. | | | |
| Van Oevelen on 14:28 - Aug 19 with 359 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Van Oevelen on 14:13 - Aug 19 by JammyDodgerrr |
It's not a fair comparison though, is it? Why would Valencia come in for Christian Walton? He's a totally different age and profile, and would be a lot more expensive. |
They wouldn't come in for Walton because he isn't good enough. Valencia want KVO because they think he's good enough to play for them in a European spot push this season. [Post edited 19 Aug 14:29]
| | | |
| Van Oevelen on 14:31 - Aug 19 with 351 views | IpswichBlue18 |
| Van Oevelen on 14:25 - Aug 19 by tractorboy1978 |
Not really sure what point you are trying to make. Valencia are a better team than any mid-table Championship side. Blackburn, Bristol City, Stoke etc aren't finishing 9th in La Liga. Valencia finished 3 points outside of a European spot and will have ambitions to qualify for Europe this season. If they put trust in KVO to play there as number 1 then that says a lot re what they think of his ability. |
A lot of reports in Spain were suggesting they were surprised that we were willing to loan him there because they’re convinced he’ll be their back up there rather than a guaranteed starter. Which seems even more odd on our part. |  | | |
| Van Oevelen on 14:32 - Aug 19 with 345 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Van Oevelen on 14:31 - Aug 19 by IpswichBlue18 |
A lot of reports in Spain were suggesting they were surprised that we were willing to loan him there because they’re convinced he’ll be their back up there rather than a guaranteed starter. Which seems even more odd on our part. |
Well yeah, if that is true then it is even dafter and completely pointless on every level. | | | |
| Van Oevelen on 14:41 - Aug 19 with 321 views | Hermann_eats_puffin |
| Van Oevelen on 14:31 - Aug 19 by IpswichBlue18 |
A lot of reports in Spain were suggesting they were surprised that we were willing to loan him there because they’re convinced he’ll be their back up there rather than a guaranteed starter. Which seems even more odd on our part. |
I can't remember whether I've imagined this or not but I'm sure that I read somewhere he turned down a loan move to Charlton because he wants the loan move to Valencia.
If that's the case I guess that he either has some assurances regarding game time or he has enough confidence in his own ability that he thinks that if he goes there and trains well he'll impress them enough to grab the number 1 starting place.
Hopefully we would include a recall clause so that if come January he hasn't played then we could recall him and loan him somewhere else for the second half of the season. | | | |
| Van Oevelen on 14:44 - Aug 19 with 316 views | Bellevue_Blue |
| Van Oevelen on 14:25 - Aug 19 by tractorboy1978 |
Not really sure what point you are trying to make. Valencia are a better team than any mid-table Championship side. Blackburn, Bristol City, Stoke etc aren't finishing 9th in La Liga. Valencia finished 3 points outside of a European spot and will have ambitions to qualify for Europe this season. If they put trust in KVO to play there as number 1 then that says a lot re what they think of his ability. |
The point I was making was that the middle of La Liga and the top of the Championship is not very different in quality and Walton started 38 games for a team that finished 2nd.
Therefore, it would probably be fair to say he could start for a middling La Liga team. Aka what KVO is potentially being asked to do.
I'm not sure why you believe Valencia to be this huge step up. Have a look at their pre-season, they beat Derby 2-1, drew with Stoke and lost to Newcastle. You'd imagine they weren't first teams but I'm sure a lot of them featured. | | | |
| Van Oevelen on 14:51 - Aug 19 with 301 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Van Oevelen on 14:44 - Aug 19 by Bellevue_Blue |
The point I was making was that the middle of La Liga and the top of the Championship is not very different in quality and Walton started 38 games for a team that finished 2nd.
Therefore, it would probably be fair to say he could start for a middling La Liga team. Aka what KVO is potentially being asked to do.
I'm not sure why you believe Valencia to be this huge step up. Have a look at their pre-season, they beat Derby 2-1, drew with Stoke and lost to Newcastle. You'd imagine they weren't first teams but I'm sure a lot of them featured. |
We will have to agree to disagree that Christian Walton is good enough to start for a team with ambitions of challenging for Europe in La Liga. | | | |
| Van Oevelen on 15:32 - Aug 19 with 251 views | Bellevue_Blue |
| Van Oevelen on 14:51 - Aug 19 by tractorboy1978 |
We will have to agree to disagree that Christian Walton is good enough to start for a team with ambitions of challenging for Europe in La Liga. |
Have a look at the bloke who was starting for Valencia for the second half of last season whilst they were chasing Europe! He will be competing with KVO - https://www.fotmob.com/en-GB/p
Dimitrievski wasn't a No 1 in La Liga until 21/22 (Was La Liga 2 before that) and since becoming a starter has finished ...
21/22 - 12th in La Liga (Rayo)
22/23 - 12th in La Liga (Rayo)
23/24 - 17th in La Liga (Rayo)
24/25 - 12th in La Liga (Joined Valencia as no 2 and played 4 games)
25/26 - 9th in La Liga (Became starter half-way through, finished 3pts off Europe as you said)
If you don't think Walton could have had a similar career or is good enough to compete I'm not sure what to say! [Post edited 19 Aug 15:38]
| | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
