| Midfield issues 08:02 - Sep 13 with 2079 views | BseaBlue |
Say what you like about the defending (and yes it hasn't been great) but it seems to me that our midfield is leaving them seriously exposed at the minute. The teams we have played seem to be able to play straight through us, with gaps everywhere. Against United I put it down to the brilliance or Bruno Fernandes but it was similar yesterday.
Not sure if Lukic is a natural holder and obviously Palacios isnt but there were quite a few times where both would push on leaving so much space in the middle. We seem ro lack control there and then had a mad period after the changes where we just couldn't keep the ball.
That appeared to change again when Flotentino came on and we had a bit more aggression there as well. Maybe Matusiwa might help as he is defensively minded but then, does that harper us with our attacking play?
At the same time, I'm mindful that we have scored 7 goals already and created a fair few chances. Maybe I just need to accept that its going to be Joe Royle rock and roll football. They score 3, we score 4! Interested to know what other people think. Tactically, it seems a bit all other the place but then we have 6 points on the board! |  | | |  |
| Midfield issues on 08:32 - Sep 13 with 1865 views | SheffordBlue |
Agree the balance could improve a bit with Florentino/Palacios if we're staying with two in the middle but think it's difficult to drop Lukic who has been really impressive overall.
Would leave us with Lukic as the cover/finisher for Palacios and Matusiwa as the more natural very defensive midfielder understudy to Florentino.
I'm sure we'll need some depth at times this season so it's great to have some option. |  |
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| Midfield issues on 08:38 - Sep 13 with 1836 views | Dennyx4 |
We were outnumbered in midfield, and only really got a hold of it, when Palace went down to 10.
Think we may need to go 433 against teams that flood the midfield and use Enciso as one of the three up front.
Palace started with a box four in midfield and easily outnumbered us in the middle of the pitch, something we may need to find an answer to.
Strangely thought we played better first half at Man U, than yesterday, but that was playing against a 4231, similar to ours. |  | | |
| Midfield issues on 08:46 - Sep 13 with 1788 views | NthQldITFC |
A bit of that, and a bit of the defence being too deep or dropping deep too soon, imo. Been evident in every game that that box of two CBs and two DMs has been an elongated rectangle at times. Not sure what the communication between Diop/Greaves and Lukic/Palacios is like.
As you say, Florentino or Matusiwa might improve it, but even with no changes I'd expect it to improve very quickly - after all there are NO established relationships between those four players at all. The international break would be a good time to work on that, but I'm not sure how many of the four will be here?
Getting the whole defence to play a bit higher when the opposition gain possession in their own half would be a major help, or as suggested a 4-3-3/4-3-2-1ish approach. |  |
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| Midfield issues on 08:49 - Sep 13 with 1771 views | BseaBlue |
| Midfield issues on 08:46 - Sep 13 by NthQldITFC |
A bit of that, and a bit of the defence being too deep or dropping deep too soon, imo. Been evident in every game that that box of two CBs and two DMs has been an elongated rectangle at times. Not sure what the communication between Diop/Greaves and Lukic/Palacios is like.
As you say, Florentino or Matusiwa might improve it, but even with no changes I'd expect it to improve very quickly - after all there are NO established relationships between those four players at all. The international break would be a good time to work on that, but I'm not sure how many of the four will be here?
Getting the whole defence to play a bit higher when the opposition gain possession in their own half would be a major help, or as suggested a 4-3-3/4-3-2-1ish approach. |
Yeah completely agree that its the gaps between the midfield and defence which are probably most exposed.
As you say, it could just be a settling in issue. I'd like to see Dara starting central as he is probably our best communicator in there. Probably more to come from Palacios in terms of fitness too. | | | |
| Midfield issues on 09:17 - Sep 13 with 1638 views | Guthrum |
| Midfield issues on 08:46 - Sep 13 by NthQldITFC |
A bit of that, and a bit of the defence being too deep or dropping deep too soon, imo. Been evident in every game that that box of two CBs and two DMs has been an elongated rectangle at times. Not sure what the communication between Diop/Greaves and Lukic/Palacios is like.
As you say, Florentino or Matusiwa might improve it, but even with no changes I'd expect it to improve very quickly - after all there are NO established relationships between those four players at all. The international break would be a good time to work on that, but I'm not sure how many of the four will be here?
Getting the whole defence to play a bit higher when the opposition gain possession in their own half would be a major help, or as suggested a 4-3-3/4-3-2-1ish approach. |
I think the dropping deep quickly is a deliberate tactic, to counter fast-breaking teams by providing an early cohesive and organised defensive wall. The player running with the ball is forced to stop, as his potential targets are outnumbered in the box.
It has generally worked quite well, apart from a period of disfunction at ManU. |  |
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| Midfield issues on 09:24 - Sep 13 with 1526 views | Guthrum |
Problem is the risk (as you mention) of upsetting the balance of the team when it comes to attacking. Giving up any of the harrying of Maeda/Clarke on the left, the running and crossing of Fatawu on the right, Enciso's trickery and persistence or Emersonn's strength and finishing, will decidedly blunt the sharpness of our attacks.
For me, the best solution would be to continue the things we're doing, but get better at them. Which will come with time and practice as a group, plus growing confidence. | |
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| Midfield issues on 09:37 - Sep 13 with 1443 views | BloomBlue |
We were outnumbered in midfield, but that should mean we outnumber them in other areas, and we need to get the ball into those players.
I do feel we're giving too much credence to style this early in the season. Palacios has only been at the club a few weeks and only played in a couple if games with Lukic. Its not a PlayStation game, it takes time for humans to develop an understanding, ie when to cover, which one to move forward etc etc. We're seeing that at most of the PL teams. I'm sure our style will be more fluid once we reach game 10. The important thing is we're collecting points during this period. |  | | |
| Midfield issues on 09:45 - Sep 13 with 1398 views | itfcsuth |
Made this observation after Le Harve in pre season about gaps in midfield.
“ It only flagged to me because there were a couple of moments we went with the press and it just left a gaping hole in the central area, which Le Havre really weren’t good enough to see or exploit, but the PL will be very different of course”
Do think at times we look like there are big spaces in midfield, think Florentino or Matusiwa are required for that defensive anchoring. |  | | |
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| Midfield issues on 10:04 - Sep 13 with 1312 views | NthQldITFC |
| Midfield issues on 09:17 - Sep 13 by Guthrum |
I think the dropping deep quickly is a deliberate tactic, to counter fast-breaking teams by providing an early cohesive and organised defensive wall. The player running with the ball is forced to stop, as his potential targets are outnumbered in the box.
It has generally worked quite well, apart from a period of disfunction at ManU. |
Yes, it definitely is, but at the moment the DMs are not dropping at the same time, or at the same speed, so we sometimes end up with this huge gap between the two, where opponents carry the ball unopposed as the defence continues to back off and the DMs aren't there to get in a challenge. It can look really bad as if we're giving up huge amount of territory unopposed in those situations, but I get the strategy.
We either need one of the DMs at least to be a little deeper (Matusiwa-esque or Florentino perhaps) or for the defence to hold for a second longer to close the gap, but I understand that the early drop is intended to negate the ball in behind. | |
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| Midfield issues on 10:17 - Sep 13 with 1273 views | DavoIPB |
Just to counter a bit. Palacios made the most tackles in defensive positions of any of our players yesterday. Which say something about our defence. He was often the last person between them and the goal on our left hand side where greaves should have been. He also covered the most ground by a large distance of any player in yesterday's game.
It is right that we only looked dominant in midfield when they went down to ten men. | | | |
| Midfield issues on 10:26 - Sep 13 with 1232 views | Devereuxxx |
As others have said, with Enciso in the 10 he has seemingly has limited defensive duties. He loves to gamble on a turnover as he's then ready to exploit the space, but that can leave us exposed. He does press well from the front, saying that, as we press with a more 4-4-2 shape. Their first goal yesterday showed just how easy it can be to play through us, a few passes and they got the shot off which deflected in.
We do look too open when playing a 4-2-3-1 with such an attacking 10. I would like to see how Florentino and Palacios do together, or even Florentino and Lukic as Palacios still looks like he's getting used to a new league, new team, new surroundings etc. He's not miles off it, just still acclimatising.
If we went to a back 5 with wing backs, this issue would be slightly alleviated as you have the extra cover behind, but it looks like GON is resisting switching from our current shape. Which is slightly surprising given the last two results prior to Palace, but does show a degree of bravery. I wouldn't be against seeing Davis and Outtarra as wing backs, with Enciso + 1 other in the 10. Maeda and Fatawu have shown flashes, but you can see them rotating if we did change shape. Fatawu especially has flashes of brilliance then scythes down a play on the halfway line for no reason.
We're still a bit of a work in progress, so that considered 6 points after 4 games is a really good haul to have. |  | | |
| Midfield issues on 10:35 - Sep 13 with 1179 views | NthQldITFC |
| Midfield issues on 10:17 - Sep 13 by DavoIPB |
Just to counter a bit. Palacios made the most tackles in defensive positions of any of our players yesterday. Which say something about our defence. He was often the last person between them and the goal on our left hand side where greaves should have been. He also covered the most ground by a large distance of any player in yesterday's game.
It is right that we only looked dominant in midfield when they went down to ten men. |
That's fascinating data that I certainly wouldn't have guessed. Pala seems to go about the game quietly and efficiently and if he's also getting those sorts of figures I think it really goes to show what a great player ITFC have purchased. That's where we are now! | |
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| Midfield issues on 10:37 - Sep 13 with 1161 views | Guthrum |
| Midfield issues on 10:26 - Sep 13 by Devereuxxx |
As others have said, with Enciso in the 10 he has seemingly has limited defensive duties. He loves to gamble on a turnover as he's then ready to exploit the space, but that can leave us exposed. He does press well from the front, saying that, as we press with a more 4-4-2 shape. Their first goal yesterday showed just how easy it can be to play through us, a few passes and they got the shot off which deflected in.
We do look too open when playing a 4-2-3-1 with such an attacking 10. I would like to see how Florentino and Palacios do together, or even Florentino and Lukic as Palacios still looks like he's getting used to a new league, new team, new surroundings etc. He's not miles off it, just still acclimatising.
If we went to a back 5 with wing backs, this issue would be slightly alleviated as you have the extra cover behind, but it looks like GON is resisting switching from our current shape. Which is slightly surprising given the last two results prior to Palace, but does show a degree of bravery. I wouldn't be against seeing Davis and Outtarra as wing backs, with Enciso + 1 other in the 10. Maeda and Fatawu have shown flashes, but you can see them rotating if we did change shape. Fatawu especially has flashes of brilliance then scythes down a play on the halfway line for no reason.
We're still a bit of a work in progress, so that considered 6 points after 4 games is a really good haul to have. |
I think O'Neil has been using these first few games - including ManU and Liverpool - to assess where the team is and what requires more work. His post-match language has included phases like 'I learnt a lot about the team today'.
Tinkering with formations at this stage does not help, as it just introduces more variables to muddy the analysis.
Edit: It's not like we're failing to pick up points along the way. [Post edited 13 Sep 10:38]
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| Midfield issues on 10:52 - Sep 13 with 1079 views | BseaBlue |
| Midfield issues on 09:24 - Sep 13 by Guthrum |
Problem is the risk (as you mention) of upsetting the balance of the team when it comes to attacking. Giving up any of the harrying of Maeda/Clarke on the left, the running and crossing of Fatawu on the right, Enciso's trickery and persistence or Emersonn's strength and finishing, will decidedly blunt the sharpness of our attacks.
For me, the best solution would be to continue the things we're doing, but get better at them. Which will come with time and practice as a group, plus growing confidence. |
Yeah definitely conflicted because of the results. We do work the ball into really good areas and that is probably because of the risk vs reward approach.
Maybe we just need to accept we might have a few batterings here and there but worth it if we are creating opportunities to won matches | | | |
| Midfield issues on 10:59 - Sep 13 with 1063 views | NthQldITFC |
| Midfield issues on 10:37 - Sep 13 by Guthrum |
I think O'Neil has been using these first few games - including ManU and Liverpool - to assess where the team is and what requires more work. His post-match language has included phases like 'I learnt a lot about the team today'.
Tinkering with formations at this stage does not help, as it just introduces more variables to muddy the analysis.
Edit: It's not like we're failing to pick up points along the way. [Post edited 13 Sep 10:38]
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I think that's reinforced by the fact that Jack Clarke, yesterday, was really O'Neil's first elective change to the league starting lineup in four games. OK, Palacios came in for Nunez, but that was always going to happen with his pedigree.
Maeda has been effective for us defensively, and could easily have continued, so Clarke was the first change he's decided to make, which along with sticking pretty much with the same structures against Man U and Liverpool when many were expecting a more defensive setup, really backs up your point about getting a deep understanding of the core of the team before tinkering.
A very wise strategy in my opinion. | |
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| Midfield issues on 11:00 - Sep 13 with 1051 views | solemio |
You call it Joe Royle football. Most people call it Kevin Keegan football. | | | |
| Midfield issues on 11:03 - Sep 13 with 1026 views | Trequartista |
We seem prone to that straight ball in behind our defence. My best guess is that is down to the players having not played together much yet rather than individual failings. We've got too many midfield options if anything, we just need the right combination, which I think is going to be Palacios + 1 as he is already looking like he's going to be our star man. |  |
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| Midfield issues on 11:18 - Sep 13 with 923 views | HighgateBlue |
If we end up as a Joe Royle type team, and we stay up, hey that's almost perfection in terms of what a fan wants to see from a club like ours!
However, I don't think we can yet draw any conclusions. As others have pointed out, GON is still learning, and we're more than hanging on in there while he does so. Palacios was always going to be a nailed on starter given his price and pedigree, and he's surely still bedding in and learning about his teammates, coach, and system.
So I think we'll know a lot more in a few games' time. However, it may be that, particularly away from home against attacking sides, Florentino may well get the nod.
It's also hard to draw any definitive positive conclusions from yesterday given that Palace went down to 10 men. That seems like a miserable thing to say, and of course I'm delighted with the win, but i'm not certain how representative the successful period of that game will turn out to be, given the numerical disparity. |  | | |
| Midfield issues on 11:44 - Sep 13 with 815 views | LeoMuff |
| Midfield issues on 10:17 - Sep 13 by DavoIPB |
Just to counter a bit. Palacios made the most tackles in defensive positions of any of our players yesterday. Which say something about our defence. He was often the last person between them and the goal on our left hand side where greaves should have been. He also covered the most ground by a large distance of any player in yesterday's game.
It is right that we only looked dominant in midfield when they went down to ten men. |
Yep we looked unable to cope in midfield before the red. For me 3 in midfield is a must. |  |
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| Midfield issues on 11:47 - Sep 13 with 802 views | DBaldy |
Some good discussion here.
My 2 pence is that while Lukic and Palacios are nominally described as defensive midfielders, IMO they're actually deep-lying playmakers rather than your more typical ball-winning defensive midfielder such as Matusiwa or Morsy.
I think that Palacios could maybe grow into that role a bit more, but while I've been pleasantly surprised with Lukic I do wonder if we might be better off with Florentino in there instead of Lukic for certain games to hopefully make us a bit harder to break down.
A good problem to have when compared to 2 seasons ago though. | | | |
| Midfield issues on 12:16 - Sep 13 with 704 views | Ryorry |
| Midfield issues on 08:46 - Sep 13 by NthQldITFC |
A bit of that, and a bit of the defence being too deep or dropping deep too soon, imo. Been evident in every game that that box of two CBs and two DMs has been an elongated rectangle at times. Not sure what the communication between Diop/Greaves and Lukic/Palacios is like.
As you say, Florentino or Matusiwa might improve it, but even with no changes I'd expect it to improve very quickly - after all there are NO established relationships between those four players at all. The international break would be a good time to work on that, but I'm not sure how many of the four will be here?
Getting the whole defence to play a bit higher when the opposition gain possession in their own half would be a major help, or as suggested a 4-3-3/4-3-2-1ish approach. |
I got roundly mocked last week for saying we were missing Matusiwa! |  |
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| Midfield issues on 12:26 - Sep 13 with 649 views | Blue_Uprising |
Finding the posts really interesting
As an amateur looking in
- watching hull last week and Everton this week it is clear how well drilled their back 5/4 + 2 sitting midfielders are to move together as a unit. At most times just a clear grid moving up and down the field in sync.
But as GON said in the presser not enough to completely stop teams scoring in the prem with their quality, and how much the ball is in play this year. A lot less time to get set. Also pleasingly seeing teams go more direct rather than overpassing the ball which challenges ability to set the block.
I’m sure we will see the defence + midfield get a better understanding. And we will see the spaces between our players condense with time on the grass together.
Unlikely even if we shifted formation, we would ever play with that kind of approach for most games, as our attacking shape demands that we break quickly get players up the pitch and overload. So pleasing to see how many players we get up and around the box for attacks. Been a while since we have played like that (been able / allowed to).
One of the questions is whether we need (or probably more specifically in which games or phases of games) we might need a player who is 90% about tracking runners and blocking them off, breaking up play, recycling the ball. Matusiwa does it - he loves it. Luis stats suggest he also loves it. But actually been surprised by the parts of the pitch he has played in during freindlies and his cameos so far - more advanced than I expected.
Lukic and Palacios don’t quite live for that in the same way. I think palacios could be very dangerous with freedom to be a bit closer to Enciso and emmerson - imagine the triangles and defence splitting balls!!!
It will be interesting to see how this evolves under GON whether we go more disciplined or an extra man, or neither!!! (crack out the blood pressure pills) |  | | |
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