| That standoff in Nothern Ireland 21:48 - Sep 27 with 3610 views | The_Romford_Blue |
Where do they go from here then?
The Orangemen marchers wanna march (obviously that specific road is incredibly contentious and highly inflammatory) while the Catholic locals in their thousands absolutely will not budge. Police somewhat caught in the middle. Catholics refusing to negotiate with negotiations and the Orangemen refusing to budge as the recent court order is on their side.
Is there any possible way it goes off (likely tomorrow) without huge amounts of violence? And both sides will likely be knackered as well and therefore more irritable, hostile and irrational.
Fascinating viewing today though I’ve found |  |
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| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 11:26 - Sep 28 with 911 views | Guthrum |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:17 - Sep 28 by jayessess |
Are we keeping everything else the same? i.e. The Brits still invade and colonise Ireland, establish a dominant aristocratic caste across the island who are the major holders of land and capital and act as proxies for the power of the English state, establish another privileged class of settlers from Britain who dominate the local institutions of government in the North East, monopolise the best jobs and land.
You would imagine that situation would still produce unionists and republicans, irrespective of religious views. |
It was not at all improbable in the decades before the First World War that Ireland as a whole would get Home Rule, with no partition. Indeed, the government was contemplating using the army to suppress threats of violent dissent in Ulster (leading to the famous Curragh mutiny, the extended crisis only interrupted in August 1914).
If Home Rule (in the practical form of a restoration of the Irish Parliamrnt in Dublin) had been achieved, it's very likey they would eventually have followed a similar path to Canada and Australia, leading to effective independence. |  |
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| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 11:42 - Sep 28 with 887 views | DJR |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:36 - Sep 28 by jayessess |
It's Unionism that keeps the 6 counties in the union, not protestantism per se. Protestantism was certainly a useful ideological anchor for those communities that identified as British but I don't know that it would have been necessarily impossible to sustain loyalism without it. |
In my view, it is very difficult to argue that Unionism would have been so entrenched or long lasting without Protestantism.
And it is interesting to note that Northern Ireland is the only British, or former British, possession that remains as such, excepting perhaps British Overseas Territories.
Of course, that is not to say that there are not some Catholics who favour the status quo. [Post edited 28 Sep 11:50]
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| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 11:56 - Sep 28 with 838 views | JakeITFC |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:15 - Sep 28 by DJR |
Some of the recent concerns on the Unionist/Loyalist side appear to be influenced by the fact that their ascendancy is on the wane, with Sinn Fein leading the power-sharing agreement and the likelihood that Protestants will become the minority in the province, if that is not already the case. [Post edited 28 Sep 10:25]
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Which in turn would likely lead to a united Ireland, so could understand why those entrenched in Unionist or Loyalist views would be nervous. |  | | |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 12:50 - Sep 28 with 754 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 11:42 - Sep 28 by DJR |
In my view, it is very difficult to argue that Unionism would have been so entrenched or long lasting without Protestantism.
And it is interesting to note that Northern Ireland is the only British, or former British, possession that remains as such, excepting perhaps British Overseas Territories.
Of course, that is not to say that there are not some Catholics who favour the status quo. [Post edited 28 Sep 11:50]
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“ Of course, that is not to say that there are not some Catholics who favour the status quo.”
True - they might not want to lose access to free healthcare and the NHS for example.
Plus these conversations always focus on N Ireland rather than the ROI, they’ve often been quite cool on the idea of incorporating the North. You have the same issues of SCEXIT, who assumes the debt, ECB woukdnt be keen, transition to Euro, how would trade with the UK be impacted. So many challenges.
East Germany, 30+ years later is still considerably poorer than the west, integrating new states successfully is very hard. The other option would be simply having N Irleland having independence as its own state, the Protestant minority might be more amenable to that option. |  | | |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 12:50 - Sep 28 with 757 views | Plums |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 09:35 - Sep 28 by ArnoldMoorhen |
A whole generation have grown up without the ever present threat of brutal violence, and are now playing an incredibly high stakes game of chicken.
It should be remembered that some on the Loyalist side, including senior leaders at the time and still, like Sammy Wilson MP, opposed both the Peace Process working towards The Good Friday Agreement and the Agreement itself, initially.
There were many in the Loyalist Youth movements at the time who opposed the Peace Process, and they are now in their forties and fifties.
The "Big Beasts" who made the Peace Process happen (Ian Paisley senior on the Loyalist side, Martin McGuinness on the Republican side, Mo Mowlam for the UK Government) have died, and the international arbiters, are very old (General De Chastelain) or very old and discredited (Senator Mitchell). Blair and Clinton have lost their lustre.
Within Northern Ireland politics the practical out-workings of the GFA, in terms of Government through MLAs at Stormont, with a First Minister and Deputy First Minister from each community, rather than Direct Rule by the Northern Ireland Secretary, has completely broken down. There is no working relationship between the DUP and Sinn Fein (the "harder line" parties of the Loyalist, Protestant and Republican, Catholic communities, respectively) as there was able to be, remarkably, between Paisley and McGuiness, in spite of the fact that both men had, at the very least, been complicit in acts of violence during the Troubles.
I remember Armando Iannucci on The Saturday Night Armistice offering a satirical solution to one of the Peace Process seemingly intractable deadlocks:
Ian Paisley said that he would not be in the same room as Sinn Fein representatives.
Gerry Adams, then leader of Sinn Fein, said there could only be negotiations if Sinn Fein and the DUP were sat at the same table.
So Iannucci unveiled a 30 foot L shaped table which could start in one room, go through the door, and then turn the corner into the next room. Adams could sit at one end, and Paisley at the other, and that way they would both have their demands met.
So, in that spirit, I offer the following solutions to the Drumcree stand off:
1) The March can happen, but only as a Orange Order X World Naked Bike Ride Collab. The Marchers have to be naked, but can have their suits and Orange sashes painted on.
2) The March can happen, but it is an away match for the Loyalists, so they should wear a change kit of Green sashes. If the Apprentice Boys want to March through Loyalist areas they should wear an Away kit of Orange. If the Orange Order wants to march in Loyalist areas then they can wear their Home Kit.
3) It's a Knockout Inflatables all the way along the Garvaghy Road. For added impact every tenth Orangeman has to wear a giant inflatable Ian Paisley body suit.
4) Twelve Orangemen can march down Garvaghy Road each year, to fulfill their traditions. A ticket to march shall be the top prize in the tombola at 12 different church fetes. Protestants love a tombola, this maintaing two traditions for the price of one. |
I remember the table sketch, it really did highlight the ludicrous nature of these people and their posturing.
I also recall a Dave Allen piece (possibly on Parkinson) where he ridiculed the 'marching season' and participants legs suddently taking control and marching them off all over Northern Ireland. I've tried to find it on YouTube but with no success.
If lives weren't at risk because of dogma, it would be a hilarious situation that deserves all the mocking of rational people. |  |
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| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 13:50 - Sep 28 with 670 views | DJR |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 12:50 - Sep 28 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
“ Of course, that is not to say that there are not some Catholics who favour the status quo.”
True - they might not want to lose access to free healthcare and the NHS for example.
Plus these conversations always focus on N Ireland rather than the ROI, they’ve often been quite cool on the idea of incorporating the North. You have the same issues of SCEXIT, who assumes the debt, ECB woukdnt be keen, transition to Euro, how would trade with the UK be impacted. So many challenges.
East Germany, 30+ years later is still considerably poorer than the west, integrating new states successfully is very hard. The other option would be simply having N Irleland having independence as its own state, the Protestant minority might be more amenable to that option. |
Absolutely, but I suppose the nationalist response to this would be that none of these would have been problems if Northern Ireland hadn't been carved out back in the 1920s, and some wouldn't be problems if Northern Ireland hadn't been taken out of the EU against its wishes. 
The irony is that many Unionists voted for Brexit because I think they thought it would make Irish independence more difficult, but the settlement they ended up with appears deeply unpopular to them and merely emphasises the fact that Ireland is one island. [Post edited 28 Sep 13:52]
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| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 14:53 - Sep 28 with 610 views | eirannach_gorm |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:50 - Sep 28 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Recent history is probably even more relevant.
As I mention above, many on the Loyalist (Orange) side, including senior politicians and leaders of Orange Lodges, were opposed to the Peace (edit) Process.
The Good Friday Agreement was signed on 10th April 1998.
The 1998 Drumcree March was banned by the Parades Commission as too inflammatory.
There was a huge stand off as tens of thousands of Orangemen and other Loyalist supporters gathered at the edge of the town. There were clashes as they tried to break through security forces.
This went on for over a week. A huge security forces presence on the edge of town. Fires lit to block roads in and out of the town. Blast bombs/pipe bombs thrown, as well as hundreds of petrol bombs. Charges at Police lines.
The Police had dug up fields and erected barbed wire all round the Garvaghy Road area. Food and medicine ran out for residents, and emergency relief convoys had to be laid on.
There were over a hundred arson attacks on Catholic community homes during this period.
One arson attack, attributed to the UVF, a Loyalist paramilitary organisation, resulted in three young brothers Richard (10), Mark (9), and Jason Quinn (8) burning to death in their home in Ballymoney, County Antrim.
Had the Republican paramilitary organisations (IRA in it's different forms, INLA) responded similarly then the Peace Process and the Good Friday Agreement would have been destroyed.
This was undoubtedly a motive for many on the Loyalist/Orange side in 1998.
Fast forward to now...
Comments about the residents of the Garvaghy Road being pathetic or childish don't do justice to the fear of those two weeks in 1998. Improvised explosive devices were being thrown and the community was under siege. This wasn't Thommo in a balaclava: the Drumcree community knew that amongst the 20,000 or so men besieging their town were people who had carried out terrorist attacks, and probably some who had killed. And people who were young adults then are parents and grandparents now, and all of that trauma is returning in flashbacks.
And just as some within the Loyalist community wanted the Good Friday Agreement to fail then, so they do now. As people have observed in this thread, the logic of time and demographics is that a majority in Northern Ireland will support a vote for the reunification of Ireland in their lifetime. Add in Trump's unhelpful comments in Ireland, and those on the Loyalist side who have chosen retrenchment into hardened communities over the "Peace Dividend" offered by The Good Friday Agreement and a peaceful transition to a less inflammatory politics and more cohesive cross-community relationships, now feel more threatened than ever and see this as an opportunity for a last stand.
The continued failure of the Stormont Assembly may be a deliberate strategy from the Unionist/Loyalist politicians who see it's success as a pre-requisite for a Reunification Referendum. There is something quite Canute-ish about resisting the tides of demographics in this way.
Whatever else you think, on both sides this is about much more than parades and marching bands. The spectre of a reignited Troubles looms over Drumcree, and many within the security cordon are still haunted by the events of 1998. [Post edited 28 Sep 10:55]
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I compliment you on a very good explanation of the history of this event and why the local residents are so against the march. There was one murder connect to this contentious march that you missed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ | | | |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 15:11 - Sep 28 with 595 views | jayessess |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 11:42 - Sep 28 by DJR |
In my view, it is very difficult to argue that Unionism would have been so entrenched or long lasting without Protestantism.
And it is interesting to note that Northern Ireland is the only British, or former British, possession that remains as such, excepting perhaps British Overseas Territories.
Of course, that is not to say that there are not some Catholics who favour the status quo. [Post edited 28 Sep 11:50]
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I think if you establish a privileged caste within a society, as Early Modern plantation settlers in Northern Ireland were and continued to be in Colonial Ireland, they'll lean towards maintaining separate identities and loyalty to the colonial power. And they might well fashion their identity around whatever point of difference they can find - if it hadn't been Catholicism it might have been something else (as it was in other British colonial contexts). |  |
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| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 17:00 - Sep 28 with 515 views | Mullet |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 15:11 - Sep 28 by jayessess |
I think if you establish a privileged caste within a society, as Early Modern plantation settlers in Northern Ireland were and continued to be in Colonial Ireland, they'll lean towards maintaining separate identities and loyalty to the colonial power. And they might well fashion their identity around whatever point of difference they can find - if it hadn't been Catholicism it might have been something else (as it was in other British colonial contexts). |
I blame brian boru for not sorting it out properly tbh |  |
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| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 17:39 - Sep 28 with 480 views | mellowblue |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:36 - Sep 28 by jayessess |
It's Unionism that keeps the 6 counties in the union, not protestantism per se. Protestantism was certainly a useful ideological anchor for those communities that identified as British but I don't know that it would have been necessarily impossible to sustain loyalism without it. |
true in theory. But don't forget that 2 of the counties Fermagh and Tyrone had Catholic nationalist majorites and were forced into the union against their will. | | | |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 17:46 - Sep 28 with 460 views | mellowblue |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 10:36 - Sep 28 by jayessess |
It's Unionism that keeps the 6 counties in the union, not protestantism per se. Protestantism was certainly a useful ideological anchor for those communities that identified as British but I don't know that it would have been necessarily impossible to sustain loyalism without it. |
true in theory. But don't forget that 2 of the counties Fermagh and Tyrone had Catholic nationalist majorites and were forced into the union against their will. | | | |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 17:59 - Sep 28 with 446 views | mellowblue |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 00:05 - Sep 28 by redrickstuhaart |
The objections to the March are ridiculous.
As is the march itself.
As are all the consequent arguments.
The only way out of this is education, the development of critical thinking, and the ridding of religious nonsense and sectariansim from the majority of human brains. Its 2026. And these people are still fighting because one lot thinks that their approach to worshipping an invisible sky daddy is more correct than the other. |
Surely it is natural for the indigenous population of N.I to wish to be re-united with their southern brothers and sisters. It is also natural for those of Scottish extraction to identify as British and wish to remain part of the U.K. That is at the core of the issue. Both sides use their religions as rocks to throw at eachother and reinforces their cultural identities. Not sure your solution changes any of that. | | | |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 18:03 - Sep 28 with 437 views | mellowblue |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 09:44 - Sep 28 by ArnoldMoorhen |
The Church of Ireland is largely irrelevant as a factor in the violence of The Troubles, and consistently worked as an arbiter of communication between Loyalists and Republicans during The Troubles, and in promoting reconciliation afterwards.
The Orange Order is rooted in the Presbyterian Church. Paisley considered the Presbyterian Church too liberal, and set up his own Free Presbyterian Church. New Orange Order Lodges then arose out of Free Presbyterian congregations.
The idea that there would be no division and violence in Northern Ireland if there were no religion is trite, and ignores human capacity for tribalism and deep-seated resentments. |
A bit of local perspective, Ian Paisleys son Kyle has had a Free Presbyterian church in Lowestoft for many years. | | | |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 18:10 - Sep 28 with 426 views | Mullet |
| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 18:03 - Sep 28 by mellowblue |
A bit of local perspective, Ian Paisleys son Kyle has had a Free Presbyterian church in Lowestoft for many years. |
Where's Presbytarian and why haven't we heard about its plight? | |
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| That standoff in Nothern Ireland on 19:56 - Sep 28 with 334 views | eirannach_gorm |
As part of a mind numbing scrolling I came across an interestingly similar situation in Israel. While this is not the same size of the Drumcree march, it is a similar triumphalist event.
https://www.facebook.com/share | | | |
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