| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed 15:37 - Oct 4 with 9831 views | giant_stow |
at the Green conference.
What a world. |  |
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 08:12 - Oct 5 with 1184 views | DJR |
I am very surprised that it is only the Guardian that this story has made the front page. |  | | |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 08:31 - Oct 5 with 1149 views | BloomBlue |
Mrs Bloom is Jewish and believes in a Jewish homeland, and if that makes her a zionist and therefore a racist according to the greens, she has said she will wear that racism as a badge of honour.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the biggest danger to Jewish people in the UK is the far left. |  | | |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 08:56 - Oct 5 with 1081 views | baxterbasics |
There was a progressive Jewish bod on TImes Radio this morning, which I often listen to on the way to work. The sort that is very critical of the Israeli government, and someone that people who want to oppose the Netanyahu's of the world would want to have on board.
She was quite clear that the resolution itself is racist and leaves the door open for harassment of all Jews regardless of their stance on Israel. None of the will be able to vote Green despite wanting a politically progressive left wing party to align with.
Also I note that Polanski made himself absent for the vote - that is not leadership, that is cowardice. |  |
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 09:36 - Oct 5 with 979 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Looks pretty stupid to me! |  |
| "They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches." | | Poll: | What you watching. |
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 09:46 - Oct 5 with 969 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 08:31 - Oct 5 by BloomBlue |
Mrs Bloom is Jewish and believes in a Jewish homeland, and if that makes her a zionist and therefore a racist according to the greens, she has said she will wear that racism as a badge of honour.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the biggest danger to Jewish people in the UK is the far left. |
The definition does not cover people who just believe in a Jewish homeland.
And this is the problem and why the greens shouldn't have let their more extreme elements drive the agenda.
One side will equivocate over the definition to claim anti semitism. The other knows full well that there are elements who will use it in that way and that there are people who self identify as zionists who don't fit the forced definition they have used for the motion.
In the end it's a largely semantic issue weaponised by both sides. [Post edited 5 Oct 9:47]
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 10:14 - Oct 5 with 903 views | giant_stow |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 09:46 - Oct 5 by redrickstuhaart |
The definition does not cover people who just believe in a Jewish homeland.
And this is the problem and why the greens shouldn't have let their more extreme elements drive the agenda.
One side will equivocate over the definition to claim anti semitism. The other knows full well that there are elements who will use it in that way and that there are people who self identify as zionists who don't fit the forced definition they have used for the motion.
In the end it's a largely semantic issue weaponised by both sides. [Post edited 5 Oct 9:47]
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I have to take issue with your last comment. Jewish people didn't asked to be attacked this way -their's is a defensive reaction. Its on the Greens to get the wording and definitions clear - if they meant something else they should said so.
Remember also the rejection of amendment 3 which would have offered some protection to Jewish Greens.
There's also another side of this which hasn't been brought up yet, as pointed by Peter Tatchell:
This motion was just all round sh1t and indefensible. [Post edited 5 Oct 10:17]
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 10:31 - Oct 5 with 863 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 10:14 - Oct 5 by giant_stow |
I have to take issue with your last comment. Jewish people didn't asked to be attacked this way -their's is a defensive reaction. Its on the Greens to get the wording and definitions clear - if they meant something else they should said so.
Remember also the rejection of amendment 3 which would have offered some protection to Jewish Greens.
There's also another side of this which hasn't been brought up yet, as pointed by Peter Tatchell:
This motion was just all round sh1t and indefensible. [Post edited 5 Oct 10:17]
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And yet we already have people in this thread objecting to being covered by the motion when the definition doesn't cover them. And also people outright failing to recognise that when people in the Middle East or Islamic world hear the word zionism, it is Israeli settling and expansion they understand by it | |
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 10:38 - Oct 5 with 841 views | giant_stow |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 10:31 - Oct 5 by redrickstuhaart |
And yet we already have people in this thread objecting to being covered by the motion when the definition doesn't cover them. And also people outright failing to recognise that when people in the Middle East or Islamic world hear the word zionism, it is Israeli settling and expansion they understand by it |
Again, if there's a problem with the definition the Greens use, that's on them, not people reacting to it.
Re your second point, I imagine that's correct, but I'd gently point out that we're in the UK, discussing a UK party and how its actions impact UK citizens. Tatchell makes a related point... [Post edited 5 Oct 10:39]
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 10:47 - Oct 5 with 797 views | Ryorry |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 10:31 - Oct 5 by redrickstuhaart |
And yet we already have people in this thread objecting to being covered by the motion when the definition doesn't cover them. And also people outright failing to recognise that when people in the Middle East or Islamic world hear the word zionism, it is Israeli settling and expansion they understand by it |
Which highlights the Greens’ gobsmacking stupidity and political naivety in not making their definition clear and precise in their motion.
Hence the reactions on thread varying from “excellent” (from a normally reasonable poster, who I think may have taken it as meaning illegal settlers), to people who just thought it means those who want a safe homeland for Jewish people. |  |
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 10:47 - Oct 5 with 795 views | DJR |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 10:31 - Oct 5 by redrickstuhaart |
And yet we already have people in this thread objecting to being covered by the motion when the definition doesn't cover them. And also people outright failing to recognise that when people in the Middle East or Islamic world hear the word zionism, it is Israeli settling and expansion they understand by it |
Leaving aside the fact that it is not for the Green party to define Zionism, is it any wonder the motion is interpreted in the way it is when the heading "Zionism is racism" is not couched in any way, and the motion contains sentences like "Zionism is Israel's foundational ideology"? [Post edited 5 Oct 10:51]
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 10:55 - Oct 5 with 749 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 10:31 - Oct 5 by redrickstuhaart |
And yet we already have people in this thread objecting to being covered by the motion when the definition doesn't cover them. And also people outright failing to recognise that when people in the Middle East or Islamic world hear the word zionism, it is Israeli settling and expansion they understand by it |
“ And also people outright failing to recognise that when people in the Middle East or Islamic world hear the word zionism, it is Israeli settling and expansion they understand by it”
We don’t live in the Middle East mate, they are supposed to be a UK political party - hence their popularity will plummet. Burnham probably can’t believe his luck. | | | |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 10:57 - Oct 5 with 735 views | Ryorry |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 10:47 - Oct 5 by DJR |
Leaving aside the fact that it is not for the Green party to define Zionism, is it any wonder the motion is interpreted in the way it is when the heading "Zionism is racism" is not couched in any way, and the motion contains sentences like "Zionism is Israel's foundational ideology"? [Post edited 5 Oct 10:51]
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Yes, I should have added in my post above yours that they shouldn’t have jumped into this cauldron of a topic in the first place. But if they were going to, then they have a responsibility to be precise in explaining exactly what they mean. | |
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 11:03 - Oct 5 with 709 views | chicoazul |
This board is unusable now. |  |
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 11:08 - Oct 5 with 683 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 10:47 - Oct 5 by DJR |
Leaving aside the fact that it is not for the Green party to define Zionism, is it any wonder the motion is interpreted in the way it is when the heading "Zionism is racism" is not couched in any way, and the motion contains sentences like "Zionism is Israel's foundational ideology"? [Post edited 5 Oct 10:51]
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Absolutely. | |
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 11:22 - Oct 5 with 644 views | WeWereZombies |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 11:03 - Oct 5 by chicoazul |
This board is unusable now. |
Why ? I've only read the first and last pages of the thread but it seems like a strong and robust debate that has brought out the public relations difficulties that the Greens have gotten into by not concentrating on environmental, i.e. Green, issues. They got into a similar tangle in Scotland a few years back over transgender rights and lost their best MSP |  |
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 11:27 - Oct 5 with 629 views | DJR |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 10:57 - Oct 5 by Ryorry |
Yes, I should have added in my post above yours that they shouldn’t have jumped into this cauldron of a topic in the first place. But if they were going to, then they have a responsibility to be precise in explaining exactly what they mean. |
Personally, I am not convinced that greater precision would have helped if the focus was Zionism.
But of course, a motion aimed at the actions of the Israeli government or even of some settlers in the West Bank would not have been objectionable.
And this very motion completely overshadows and undermines the views of those (including me) with valid concerns about the actions of the Israeli government. [Post edited 5 Oct 11:29]
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 11:33 - Oct 5 with 601 views | DJR |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 11:27 - Oct 5 by DJR |
Personally, I am not convinced that greater precision would have helped if the focus was Zionism.
But of course, a motion aimed at the actions of the Israeli government or even of some settlers in the West Bank would not have been objectionable.
And this very motion completely overshadows and undermines the views of those (including me) with valid concerns about the actions of the Israeli government. [Post edited 5 Oct 11:29]
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Wrong thread. [Post edited 5 Oct 11:33]
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 11:39 - Oct 5 with 577 views | baxterbasics |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 17:41 - Oct 4 by John_Warks_Willy |
Phil loves thread topics like these |
He might get a bit nervous about it but so far it's been a very reasonable discussion avoiding personal abuse or OTT positions which cross the line.
Hopefully we can keep it that way. | |
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 11:45 - Oct 5 with 548 views | lowhouseblue |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 10:55 - Oct 5 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
“ And also people outright failing to recognise that when people in the Middle East or Islamic world hear the word zionism, it is Israeli settling and expansion they understand by it”
We don’t live in the Middle East mate, they are supposed to be a UK political party - hence their popularity will plummet. Burnham probably can’t believe his luck. |
it probably does help labour. but at the same time it is leading to greater sectionalism, balkanisation, and divisiveness in uk politics. it plays well to some - and drives people apart - and it's hard not to see that as the intention. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 11:48 - Oct 5 with 537 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 11:03 - Oct 5 by chicoazul |
This board is unusable now. |
I'm sure we're all sad to see you go. |  |
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 11:56 - Oct 5 with 534 views | leitrimblue |
The Greens have made an absolute mess of this. Apart from the fact there are hundreds of more important issues concerning the UK at the moment. Trying to form Zionism into a simple yes or no decision completely fails to understand the complexity of the subject.
The right to self determination for some of the worlds most abused peoples is clearly in theory a no brainer. The issue is how to fairly turn this into a practical reality.
Which people's do you dispossess in order to create this homeland is the tricky part surely? |  | | |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 12:32 - Oct 5 with 441 views | Ryorry |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 11:27 - Oct 5 by DJR |
Personally, I am not convinced that greater precision would have helped if the focus was Zionism.
But of course, a motion aimed at the actions of the Israeli government or even of some settlers in the West Bank would not have been objectionable.
And this very motion completely overshadows and undermines the views of those (including me) with valid concerns about the actions of the Israeli government. [Post edited 5 Oct 11:29]
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Your middle para is what I meant!
Your last paragraph also describes my own position.
In practice, what this furore has also resulted in is that I’ve no idea what environmental policies/motions may have been discussed or passed at their conference, because any such have been totally overshadowed by this, sadly.
Speaking as someone who’s not a GP member or follower, but was previously sympathetic to them when they focused on environmental issues, and leafletted for them locally. | |
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 12:43 - Oct 5 with 397 views | Ryorry |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 11:03 - Oct 5 by chicoazul |
This board is unusable now. |
7360 views of this thread, over 18,000, 12,000, 10,000 and 7,000 on other threads on p1 alone, are evidence that you’re wrong. | |
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 12:56 - Oct 5 with 355 views | Dubtractor |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 11:03 - Oct 5 by chicoazul |
This board is unusable now. |
Slightly puzzled why this thread is the one to prompt that response, given the number of previous threads that would have better justified it. |  |
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| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 13:04 - Oct 5 with 320 views | DJR |
| Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 12:32 - Oct 5 by Ryorry |
Your middle para is what I meant!
Your last paragraph also describes my own position.
In practice, what this furore has also resulted in is that I’ve no idea what environmental policies/motions may have been discussed or passed at their conference, because any such have been totally overshadowed by this, sadly.
Speaking as someone who’s not a GP member or follower, but was previously sympathetic to them when they focused on environmental issues, and leafletted for them locally. |
I imagine it is a great disappointment to the many decent Greens I came across in the local party. Through their efforts they now hold the two KCC seats for the largest town in a constituency which has been Tory for well over a century. But I imagine this motion dent their chances for future.
And had the vote been put to the 200,000 members, I am sure there would have been a very different result. [Post edited 5 Oct 13:05]
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