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It’s funny in the past when my political knowledge and awareness and interest kicked in (since early 80’s) I was always generally quite pro it.. only the Italian yearly farce of changing leaders holding the country back and not allowing stability tempered my enthusiasm. … Now when I think this country is more ready for it and needs it… I’m actually less enthusiastic for it….. so I’m really not sure. … PR naturally leads to coalition governments and makes strange bedfellows which can cause stagnation..I’m very pro a strong shadow opposition in whatever form though to keep any government in check.
Hence my vote for all body shapes …. As in any form of democracy no matter how small the reality of it actually existing to us is … it’s better than none.
In a referendum would you vote for proportional representation on 19:38 - Oct 4 by Perublue
It’s funny in the past when my political knowledge and awareness and interest kicked in (since early 80’s) I was always generally quite pro it.. only the Italian yearly farce of changing leaders holding the country back and not allowing stability tempered my enthusiasm. … Now when I think this country is more ready for it and needs it… I’m actually less enthusiastic for it….. so I’m really not sure. … PR naturally leads to coalition governments and makes strange bedfellows which can cause stagnation..I’m very pro a strong shadow opposition in whatever form though to keep any government in check.
Hence my vote for all body shapes …. As in any form of democracy no matter how small the reality of it actually existing to us is … it’s better than none.
[Post edited 4 Oct 19:58]
Im the opposite, i user to be very anti it and think it would lead to weak governments. But now i think it would be better and more fair with every vote counting.
In a referendum would you vote for proportional representation on 19:45 - Oct 4 by nodge_blue
Im the opposite, i user to be very anti it and think it would lead to weak governments. But now i think it would be better and more fair with every vote counting.
In a referendum would you vote for proportional representation on 19:38 - Oct 4 by Perublue
It’s funny in the past when my political knowledge and awareness and interest kicked in (since early 80’s) I was always generally quite pro it.. only the Italian yearly farce of changing leaders holding the country back and not allowing stability tempered my enthusiasm. … Now when I think this country is more ready for it and needs it… I’m actually less enthusiastic for it….. so I’m really not sure. … PR naturally leads to coalition governments and makes strange bedfellows which can cause stagnation..I’m very pro a strong shadow opposition in whatever form though to keep any government in check.
Hence my vote for all body shapes …. As in any form of democracy no matter how small the reality of it actually existing to us is … it’s better than none.
[Post edited 4 Oct 19:58]
Stagnation is probably the wrong word. More like impasses that can slow some things down imo. And yes I agree with that.
On the flip side think about the major things politicians have done to us over the last 15+ years and a counter challenge would have been very welcome. I think I’d vote yes, as I’m naive enough to thing parties could reach compromises that would benefit us for once.
Pure PR, all MPs elected countrywide from party lists - no, I think it's important to keep a link between constituency and representative, also gives too much power to parties.
A two-track system, with some MPs elected in constituencies by FPTP, topped up by a number elected by PR from party lists (similar to the Scottish, German and Danish systems, for example) - maybe, but it would depend upon the ratio of constituency to list seats.
Larger, regional constituencies each electing a number of MPs by PR - I quite like this idea, best of both worlds.
Transferrable/preference, where voters rank candidates and that is used to apportion seats - can be overly complicated, don't want to put electors off.
Then there are other aspects: PR tends to result in non-decisive elections, which have to be followed by extensive negotiations to form a working government. Minority (sometimes extremist) parties have excessive influence, as their support is needed to prop up the government. Coalitions lack agility in emergencies.
Thing is, with UK politics being as fragmented as it is, you're probably going to get similar results anyway. We'll get a hung parliament either way, and a government will be formed through negotiation, or at least until voters who've turned to the fringes feel like returning to Lab/Con. We could be in for a few decades of Lab/Lib/Green alternating power with Con/Ref.
In a referendum would you vote for proportional representation on 20:27 - Oct 4 by Swansea_Blue
Stagnation is probably the wrong word. More like impasses that can slow some things down imo. And yes I agree with that.
On the flip side think about the major things politicians have done to us over the last 15+ years and a counter challenge would have been very welcome. I think I’d vote yes, as I’m naive enough to thing parties could reach compromises that would benefit us for once.
We seem to have reached an impasse in recent years with neither of the 2 main parties seemingly capable of making real decisions, despite having large majorities. So would we really be any worse off with coalitions? At least PR has a semblance of fairness.
What form of proportional representation? on 20:33 - Oct 4 by Guthrum
There are a number of different options:
Pure PR, all MPs elected countrywide from party lists - no, I think it's important to keep a link between constituency and representative, also gives too much power to parties.
A two-track system, with some MPs elected in constituencies by FPTP, topped up by a number elected by PR from party lists (similar to the Scottish, German and Danish systems, for example) - maybe, but it would depend upon the ratio of constituency to list seats.
Larger, regional constituencies each electing a number of MPs by PR - I quite like this idea, best of both worlds.
Transferrable/preference, where voters rank candidates and that is used to apportion seats - can be overly complicated, don't want to put electors off.
Then there are other aspects: PR tends to result in non-decisive elections, which have to be followed by extensive negotiations to form a working government. Minority (sometimes extremist) parties have excessive influence, as their support is needed to prop up the government. Coalitions lack agility in emergencies.
It's not a simple question.
As someone who experiences the Scottish system I feel I have some say on whether the ratio of constituency to list seats matters, and I think that most voters are either indifferent or confused by the list element. I can say from the point of view as a counting agent at the last Holyrood election that the constituency part of the job was just reliant on me being quick enough to follow what the counters were doing and quick enough to put the markers down on my answer sheet. When it came to the list part of things everything got impossible and I gave up and I think all the other counting agents did too.
So from a democracy being done point of view, yes maybe that system of proportional representation is better than first past the post, but in terms of democracy being seen to be done - no.
In a referendum would you vote for proportional representation on 07:58 - Oct 5 by DJR
The latest poll has Labour on 30% which is just on the cusp of a Labour majority.
Any further rise, and I doubt Burnham will follow through with his hints about PR.
What a cynical viewpoint, I'm sure he would want to - but the rest of his cabinet and the Parliamentary Party plus advisers would persuade him otherwise...
In a referendum would you vote for proportional representation on 08:15 - Oct 5 by WeWereZombies
What a cynical viewpoint, I'm sure he would want to - but the rest of his cabinet and the Parliamentary Party plus advisers would persuade him otherwise...
Not cynical but based on the fact that it has always been in the interests of the two main parties to keep the current voting system.
2
In a referendum would you vote for proportional representation on 08:24 - Oct 5 with 1172 views
I am a bit cycnical of P.R, it would have to be a system that does not allow the tail to wag the dog, so to speak, give to much power to possible radical parties in a coalition. So I can't say I support it, without 100% rejecting it. Any proposals would need fleshing out first.
0
In a referendum would you vote for proportional representation on 11:36 - Oct 5 with 986 views
In a referendum would you vote for proportional representation on 11:26 - Oct 5 by mellowblue
I am a bit cycnical of P.R, it would have to be a system that does not allow the tail to wag the dog, so to speak, give to much power to possible radical parties in a coalition. So I can't say I support it, without 100% rejecting it. Any proposals would need fleshing out first.
Maybe it depends on whether one lives in a constituency that has had a Tory MP for well over a century, and which shows no evidence of ever changing.
[Post edited 5 Oct 11:36]
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In a referendum would you vote for proportional representation on 12:11 - Oct 5 with 932 views
In a referendum would you vote for proportional representation on 11:36 - Oct 5 by DJR
Maybe it depends on whether one lives in a constituency that has had a Tory MP for well over a century, and which shows no evidence of ever changing.
[Post edited 5 Oct 11:36]
I expect that is fine and dandy if you are a Tory constituent ! But what do M.Ps really achieve anyway. In Waveney Valley as we are now called, we have had a regular flip flop from Lab to Con to Lab for years, can't say it improves things or otherwise. The reverse to that is Wales who have had the same party control for decades and it is totally stale there.
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In a referendum would you vote for proportional representation on 13:21 - Oct 5 with 846 views
In a referendum would you vote for proportional representation on 19:38 - Oct 4 by Perublue
It’s funny in the past when my political knowledge and awareness and interest kicked in (since early 80’s) I was always generally quite pro it.. only the Italian yearly farce of changing leaders holding the country back and not allowing stability tempered my enthusiasm. … Now when I think this country is more ready for it and needs it… I’m actually less enthusiastic for it….. so I’m really not sure. … PR naturally leads to coalition governments and makes strange bedfellows which can cause stagnation..I’m very pro a strong shadow opposition in whatever form though to keep any government in check.
Hence my vote for all body shapes …. As in any form of democracy no matter how small the reality of it actually existing to us is … it’s better than none.
[Post edited 4 Oct 19:58]
I wouldn't necessarily be against coalition governments. It would create a better environment for consensus politics, and potentially reduce some of the constant swinging between left and right.
Barring the current emergence of AfD, I've always been generally impressed by what Germany has been able to achieve with almost constant coalition governments. I really don't think it would lead to the electoral chaos etc., that was hinted at by the anti-PR campaign during the last referendum on the matter.
Not a prophet, or a stone-age man; just a mortal with potential of a superman.
When the choice was Tory/Liberal and then Conservative/Labour the first past the post system worked well.
But now, with multiple parties you get weird results. Take our current Pariament. A landslide for Labour with only about 20% of the available vote. As in 4 out of 5 registered voters did not vote for them.
If the system is not reformed such distortions will continue with differing parties benefitting as luck or design awards.
What we have is not fit for purpose. It needs to be changed. But to what is the question ?
0
In a referendum would you vote for proportional representation on 21:29 - Oct 5 with 670 views
If it was a simple PR or stay as it is, I think I would.
However, I think a far better system would be to have single transferable vote for the local MP and the House of Lords to be mostly elected by proportional representation. I think having the Lords to only get replaced every 10 years (half of them at each general election or fewer if an early election is called) would add more stability too.
In a referendum would you vote for proportional representation on 11:36 - Oct 5 by DJR
Maybe it depends on whether one lives in a constituency that has had a Tory MP for well over a century, and which shows no evidence of ever changing.
[Post edited 5 Oct 11:36]
Where I live a dog turd with the right colour of rosette will get elected. My vote is utterly meaningless and has been for years.
With PR it isn’t. As such it’s far more democratic and fair, if there’s any such thing.
It’ll never be embraced by Labour or by the tories. The former don’t need to bother about it and latter might embrace when the idiots realise the obvious - their chances of forming a government in the future are fat zero.
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In a referendum would you vote for proportional representation on 18:52 - Oct 6 with 391 views
In a referendum would you vote for proportional representation on 08:13 - Oct 6 by Churchman
Where I live a dog turd with the right colour of rosette will get elected. My vote is utterly meaningless and has been for years.
With PR it isn’t. As such it’s far more democratic and fair, if there’s any such thing.
It’ll never be embraced by Labour or by the tories. The former don’t need to bother about it and latter might embrace when the idiots realise the obvious - their chances of forming a government in the future are fat zero.
It seems like it is being adopted by Labour. Burnham has said so. Probably he realises that the distortion of the '24 election is unlikely to be repeated and he needs to hedge his bets. I think with 4, 5, or 6 parties now getting substantial numbers of votes a new system has to be considered. Let us vote for who we want, not have to vote tactically against who we dont.
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In a referendum would you vote for proportional representation on 20:15 - Oct 6 with 337 views
In a referendum would you vote for proportional representation on 21:55 - Oct 5 by Nthsuffolkblue
If it was a simple PR or stay as it is, I think I would.
However, I think a far better system would be to have single transferable vote for the local MP and the House of Lords to be mostly elected by proportional representation. I think having the Lords to only get replaced every 10 years (half of them at each general election or fewer if an early election is called) would add more stability too.
The House of Lords has had sporadic reform over the years, largely involving getting rid of the hereditary peers. But I'm unconvinced that having 800 appointees is much better. However, if you have a democratically elected 2nd chamber (they do NOT need to be called "Lords") they will be keener to use their powers & you can get a US style gridlock between the 2 houses.
In a referendum would you vote for proportional representation on 20:15 - Oct 6 by Radlett_blue
The House of Lords has had sporadic reform over the years, largely involving getting rid of the hereditary peers. But I'm unconvinced that having 800 appointees is much better. However, if you have a democratically elected 2nd chamber (they do NOT need to be called "Lords") they will be keener to use their powers & you can get a US style gridlock between the 2 houses.
Isn't the gridlock prevented due to the limited amount of times the Lords can return a bill for reconsideration? I must admit I don't follow it all that closely so I may be wrong.
I would suggest that having as many parties as want stand for the PR second chamber vote and for each 1% of the vote they get they appoint someone to serve for 10 years. Should that person die/resign/be deselected or whatever, their party replaces them with whoever they choose (i.e. they represent the party that was voted for and not any particular constituency). The chamber would then have around 200 members (maybe a few more or fewer if 0.5% are rounded up and anything below is rounded down) half of whom are up for re-election 5 years later.
That is unlikely to see a chamber predominantly of any one political persuasion and it would provide the check and balance that the current House of Lords supplies. I think (again correct me if I am wrong), the US system is very heavily based on just two parties in both chambers.
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