| Another referendum thread... 21:31 - Sep 25 with 5670 views | pointofblue |
Why are so many against a second referendum if a deal is in place as an option? At least people will have a better, if not perfect, idea what they're voting for in terms of Brexit (whether it be No Deal, Deal or Remain) than they did in June 2015. First Past The Post won't work as a voting system but Second Preference vote will.
I also don't understand how a second vote is betraying democracy when it's a democratic vote? |  |
| |  |
| Another referendum thread... on 21:32 - Sep 25 with 2962 views | blueconscience |
And what if people want a 3rd referendum if they dont get their way in the 2nd? |  |
| |
| Another referendum thread... on 21:35 - Sep 25 with 2950 views | BloomBlue |
So first past the post in the first referendum is wrong because it wasn't what you voted for, but it will be right in the second referendum if the result goes your way.
I have no problem with a second referendum but if we have a second then we should have a 3rd, 4th etc etc |  | | |
| Another referendum thread... on 21:37 - Sep 25 with 2956 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
Why concede a second referundum to the people who by definition don’t accept the results of a referendum? |  | | |
| Another referendum thread... on 21:42 - Sep 25 with 2931 views | pointofblue |
| Another referendum thread... on 21:35 - Sep 25 by BloomBlue |
So first past the post in the first referendum is wrong because it wasn't what you voted for, but it will be right in the second referendum if the result goes your way.
I have no problem with a second referendum but if we have a second then we should have a 3rd, 4th etc etc |
No, I said First Past the Post wouldn't suit this referendum because there are three options on the table, with the Leave vote split.
The problem with the first referendum is people had different interpretations of Brexit - one person may have been voting for a curb of immigration but may not get it. Another may have been voting for the British Courts gaining more powers from Strasbourg but that may be something which is negotiated away as part of the deal. A third may be concerned about European legislation on fisheries but that could be put to one side for the sake of the City. And what recourse is there? "I didn't vote for that"? Brexit is all encompassing, there was no manifesto to pinpoint what Leave actually meant.
If there's a Deal on the table there's a blueprint - clear guidance what Brexit means should we sign it. If it's No Deal then the situation is clearer and the British people have stated they wish to take that path. If it's Remain then, again, same as No Deal. | |
| |
| Another referendum thread... on 21:46 - Sep 25 with 2919 views | blueconscience |
| Another referendum thread... on 21:42 - Sep 25 by pointofblue |
No, I said First Past the Post wouldn't suit this referendum because there are three options on the table, with the Leave vote split.
The problem with the first referendum is people had different interpretations of Brexit - one person may have been voting for a curb of immigration but may not get it. Another may have been voting for the British Courts gaining more powers from Strasbourg but that may be something which is negotiated away as part of the deal. A third may be concerned about European legislation on fisheries but that could be put to one side for the sake of the City. And what recourse is there? "I didn't vote for that"? Brexit is all encompassing, there was no manifesto to pinpoint what Leave actually meant.
If there's a Deal on the table there's a blueprint - clear guidance what Brexit means should we sign it. If it's No Deal then the situation is clearer and the British people have stated they wish to take that path. If it's Remain then, again, same as No Deal. |
Surely revoting until people get what they want just defeats the object of voting at all. Will we also do the same in the next general election if the “wrong” party get voted in?
Where will it end? | |
| |
| Another referendum thread... on 21:47 - Sep 25 with 2919 views | GeoffSentence |
| Another referendum thread... on 21:32 - Sep 25 by blueconscience |
And what if people want a 3rd referendum if they dont get their way in the 2nd? |
Then they could campaign for one and if there was sufficient support for it they could get one.
There is a good reason for a second referendum though, at the last one there were no details regarding what brexit would actually mean, a second referendum would be based on the actual dealdeal, we would know precisely what we were letting ourselves in for. That's a bit deal and is well worth asking the question again.
Public support would justify a third referendum, and maybe some as yet new informafion. But otherwise, why bother. |  |
| |
| Another referendum thread... on 21:49 - Sep 25 with 2917 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| Another referendum thread... on 21:42 - Sep 25 by pointofblue |
No, I said First Past the Post wouldn't suit this referendum because there are three options on the table, with the Leave vote split.
The problem with the first referendum is people had different interpretations of Brexit - one person may have been voting for a curb of immigration but may not get it. Another may have been voting for the British Courts gaining more powers from Strasbourg but that may be something which is negotiated away as part of the deal. A third may be concerned about European legislation on fisheries but that could be put to one side for the sake of the City. And what recourse is there? "I didn't vote for that"? Brexit is all encompassing, there was no manifesto to pinpoint what Leave actually meant.
If there's a Deal on the table there's a blueprint - clear guidance what Brexit means should we sign it. If it's No Deal then the situation is clearer and the British people have stated they wish to take that path. If it's Remain then, again, same as No Deal. |
But we voted to leave so the only real case for another vote might be on the basis of the leave deal ie the Chequers Plan (or a version of it) vs no deal (WTO terms). | | | |
| Another referendum thread... on 21:50 - Sep 25 with 2909 views | Blueorder |
The vast majority of those that voted to leave had no idea that there was going to be a negotiated deal to leave. Referendum simply means single issue vote. As a democratic country we can't just keep having a vote just because it doesn't suit. Some of the details were there for all to see before the vote. Most simply listened to the snappy soundbites that were trotted out and demanded to take back control. I saw it for the croc of sh1t that it is. |  | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Another referendum thread... on 21:52 - Sep 25 with 2888 views | Bluefish |
The referendum was swung by a massive swell of people than didn't care about the details of what they were voting for. If we do it again they still won't know what they are voting for, these people have never followed politics and never will but they get the same vote as those that do, it is silly really. Democracy is actually the right way people should do a test to get a vote.
It is a bit like Mick deceiving awful abuse at games like Brentford from people that don't normally go and watch Ipswich and only turn up for games like norwich and millwall |  |
| |
| Another referendum thread... on 21:57 - Sep 25 with 2871 views | pointofblue |
| Another referendum thread... on 21:46 - Sep 25 by blueconscience |
Surely revoting until people get what they want just defeats the object of voting at all. Will we also do the same in the next general election if the “wrong” party get voted in?
Where will it end? |
I wouldn't say this is a revote though; this is clarification. Though on that basis, I understand the argument of a simple FPTP vote over whether we leave with the final deal we manage to extract from the EU or a complete No Deal. | |
| |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:07 - Sep 25 with 2843 views | factual_blue |
| Another referendum thread... on 21:37 - Sep 25 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
Why concede a second referundum to the people who by definition don’t accept the results of a referendum? |
The 2016 referendum was, by your argument, a concession to those who don't accept the result of the 1975 referendum. |  |
| |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:10 - Sep 25 with 2832 views | BloomBlue |
| Another referendum thread... on 21:47 - Sep 25 by GeoffSentence |
Then they could campaign for one and if there was sufficient support for it they could get one.
There is a good reason for a second referendum though, at the last one there were no details regarding what brexit would actually mean, a second referendum would be based on the actual dealdeal, we would know precisely what we were letting ourselves in for. That's a bit deal and is well worth asking the question again.
Public support would justify a third referendum, and maybe some as yet new informafion. But otherwise, why bother. |
So you're saying the vote should be about the deal not leaving or staying? So if the vote goes against the deal then as you're saying it's only related to the deal then that would mean we leave the EU with no deal.
That's fair as that doesn't overturn the first vote and therefore not anti democracy | | | |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:13 - Sep 25 with 2832 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:07 - Sep 25 by factual_blue |
The 2016 referendum was, by your argument, a concession to those who don't accept the result of the 1975 referendum. |
1975 was a vote to join the common market, 2015 a vote to leave the EU not the same issue (in my view). | | | |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:14 - Sep 25 with 2816 views | blueconscience |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:07 - Sep 25 by factual_blue |
The 2016 referendum was, by your argument, a concession to those who don't accept the result of the 1975 referendum. |
After 40 years though, and not really what they voted for.
To ask for another vote before what has been voted for being implemented is a little different. | |
| |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:15 - Sep 25 with 2815 views | Herbivore |
Brexiteers are against a second referendum because they are worried they'll lose, it's really as simple as that. |  |
| |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:16 - Sep 25 with 2794 views | blueconscience |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:15 - Sep 25 by Herbivore |
Brexiteers are against a second referendum because they are worried they'll lose, it's really as simple as that. |
Everyone said the brexiteers would lose the first vote too!!! You can never be too sure. | |
| |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:17 - Sep 25 with 2791 views | pointofblue |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:14 - Sep 25 by blueconscience |
After 40 years though, and not really what they voted for.
To ask for another vote before what has been voted for being implemented is a little different. |
How should it be implemented though? Should we still allow Strasbourg to have a say over here? Should we allow EU shipping to fish in British waters without tariffs? Should we have a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland? [Post edited 25 Sep 2018 22:17]
| |
| |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:17 - Sep 25 with 2797 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:15 - Sep 25 by Herbivore |
Brexiteers are against a second referendum because they are worried they'll lose, it's really as simple as that. |
That is not why I am against a second vote.
I think a second referendum would actually reinforce the decision to leave. | | | |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:17 - Sep 25 with 2789 views | syntaxerror |
| Another referendum thread... on 21:37 - Sep 25 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
Why concede a second referundum to the people who by definition don’t accept the results of a referendum? |
But what if democratic opinion has actually changed to not want Brexit anymore.
Is it not less democratic to refuse them that?
There is no easy option - but democracy in the true definition of the word, means government for the people, by the people.
If the people change their mind, are they not allowed to express that?
(And I don't know if they actually have, just asking hypothetically) |  | | |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:19 - Sep 25 with 2775 views | blueconscience |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:17 - Sep 25 by pointofblue |
How should it be implemented though? Should we still allow Strasbourg to have a say over here? Should we allow EU shipping to fish in British waters without tariffs? Should we have a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland? [Post edited 25 Sep 2018 22:17]
|
If the EU will want a hard border in Ireland, let them build it and upset the natives themselves. [Post edited 25 Sep 2018 22:19]
| |
| |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:21 - Sep 25 with 2768 views | RegencyBlue |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:13 - Sep 25 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
1975 was a vote to join the common market, 2015 a vote to leave the EU not the same issue (in my view). |
Quite!
The Common Market was an economic alliance and not a lot more. By 2016 the EU was busy morphing into the United States of Europe.
Two completely different things. |  | | |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:21 - Sep 25 with 2764 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:17 - Sep 25 by syntaxerror |
But what if democratic opinion has actually changed to not want Brexit anymore.
Is it not less democratic to refuse them that?
There is no easy option - but democracy in the true definition of the word, means government for the people, by the people.
If the people change their mind, are they not allowed to express that?
(And I don't know if they actually have, just asking hypothetically) |
But we haven’t even got Brexit yet at least not experience of it in practice to ask the question if people no longer want it. | | | |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:21 - Sep 25 with 2760 views | Herbivore |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:17 - Sep 25 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
That is not why I am against a second vote.
I think a second referendum would actually reinforce the decision to leave. |
I don't think it would and I think many Brexiteers feel the same way. The whole thing is a clusterfck though however you slice it. | |
| |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:24 - Sep 25 with 2735 views | pointofblue |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:19 - Sep 25 by blueconscience |
If the EU will want a hard border in Ireland, let them build it and upset the natives themselves. [Post edited 25 Sep 2018 22:19]
|
I don't think it'd be them, I think it'd be us. | |
| |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:32 - Sep 25 with 2714 views | blueconscience |
| Another referendum thread... on 22:24 - Sep 25 by pointofblue |
I don't think it'd be them, I think it'd be us. |
Probably true unfortunately. The EU would never want to spend to implement their own rules. [Post edited 25 Sep 2018 22:34]
| |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
