| Labour Connected 09:44 - Sep 22 with 6991 views | tractordownsouth |
Quite enjoyed that speech from Starmer at the virtual conference. Of course I'm a bit biased, but it was good to see more emotional appeal in there - attacking Tory incompetence, rather than Tory ideology seems like a good plan for the early days of the parliamentary term - that can become the focus later on. It was quite light on policy, but it's still early for any major announcements, especially on a day where it'll get lost in the lockdown news cycle
Was glad to see Ruth Smeeth doing the intro as well, hopefully she'll be back in parliament in 2024. |  |
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| Labour Connected on 09:56 - Sep 22 with 2412 views | Darth_Koont |
I’m also a bit biased as I think policies are the only politics that really matter.
So a performative appeal back to the “halcyon days” of Blair and Cameron leaves me particularly cold.
Impotence is the new leadership. |  |
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| Labour Connected on 10:18 - Sep 22 with 2353 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
He was very good. The majority of the party is behind him...minus a few loon balls. He provides a strong and competent opposition |  |
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| Labour Connected on 10:22 - Sep 22 with 2343 views | BloomBlue |
Politicians do like a catchphrase don't they now we have a new one 'A new leadership'. I honestly thought it was a load of waffle, where are his policies other than a return to the Blair policies. He said the voters didn't trust Labour in the last election but he was part of the Labour leadership so they didn't trust him, why didn't he tell us what he did wrong? If you want the voters to trust and you want to be seen as different to BJ tells us what you did wrong personally
As a few have already posted on social media "it's depressing that the opposition doesn't realise that by repeating your opponent's frame (nationalism, family values etc), you don't steal their votes, you just strengthen their narrative" |  | | |
| Labour Connected on 10:30 - Sep 22 with 2314 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour Connected on 10:18 - Sep 22 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
He was very good. The majority of the party is behind him...minus a few loon balls. He provides a strong and competent opposition |
We’ll see.
I think in appealing to the soft conservative majority he’s entirely missing the real challenges facing the UK. And in particular he can forget Scotland and others who want more progressive and less insular thinking.
Scotland didn’t fall back into line and support Labour in a general election as the not as bad as the Torres option, and I suspect we’ll see the same for a significant amount of Labour voters who will look to the Greens or another left UKIP-style disruptive party.
3 or 4 years out from an election is the opportunity to show genuine leadership and vision, and be forming the debate rather than showing you can play the game more competently. | |
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| Labour Connected on 10:34 - Sep 22 with 2308 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour Connected on 10:22 - Sep 22 by BloomBlue |
Politicians do like a catchphrase don't they now we have a new one 'A new leadership'. I honestly thought it was a load of waffle, where are his policies other than a return to the Blair policies. He said the voters didn't trust Labour in the last election but he was part of the Labour leadership so they didn't trust him, why didn't he tell us what he did wrong? If you want the voters to trust and you want to be seen as different to BJ tells us what you did wrong personally
As a few have already posted on social media "it's depressing that the opposition doesn't realise that by repeating your opponent's frame (nationalism, family values etc), you don't steal their votes, you just strengthen their narrative" |
We don’t agree on our underlying politics. But I think your analysis is bang on here.
Starmer might as well be preparing the ground for a softer, kinder and more competent Tory leadership to clean up in 2024, content in the knowledge that he won that argument back in 2020. [Post edited 22 Sep 2020 10:35]
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| Labour Connected on 10:40 - Sep 22 with 2283 views | tractordownsouth |
| Labour Connected on 10:22 - Sep 22 by BloomBlue |
Politicians do like a catchphrase don't they now we have a new one 'A new leadership'. I honestly thought it was a load of waffle, where are his policies other than a return to the Blair policies. He said the voters didn't trust Labour in the last election but he was part of the Labour leadership so they didn't trust him, why didn't he tell us what he did wrong? If you want the voters to trust and you want to be seen as different to BJ tells us what you did wrong personally
As a few have already posted on social media "it's depressing that the opposition doesn't realise that by repeating your opponent's frame (nationalism, family values etc), you don't steal their votes, you just strengthen their narrative" |
Saw that tweet from Grace Blakeley - she doesn't understand the definition of nationalism. Patriotism and nationalism are completely different things - one is about pride and optimism, the other creates division.
I'd like to see more policy content for sure, but these things have to be announced at a sensible time. Covid is the issue of the day, so focusing on that is. We know that Starmer is anti-austerity, which in itself puts a big gap between him and Johnson. Which policies will be kept and which policies will be dropped will be decided once we know the state of the economy post-Covid - although his commitment to ending austerity and promoting environmentalism will remain intact i'm sure. As one of the contributors to Politics Live pointed out, the last 2 Labour LOTOs who became PM won the leadership in the middle of a parliamentary term, so Starmer has to pace himself better when offering up specifics. | |
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| Labour Connected on 10:44 - Sep 22 with 2272 views | StokieBlue |
| Labour Connected on 10:34 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
We don’t agree on our underlying politics. But I think your analysis is bang on here.
Starmer might as well be preparing the ground for a softer, kinder and more competent Tory leadership to clean up in 2024, content in the knowledge that he won that argument back in 2020. [Post edited 22 Sep 2020 10:35]
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I'm not really sure what you want to be honest. You know he is unlikely to get elected with what you want him to say and implement so it just looks like you want to be "right" rather than have any actual change in the general direction you want.
I don't believe we can get from where we are now to where you want us to be in one step which is what you seem to always suggest is the only way to go about things.
What am I missing?
SB |  | | |
| Labour Connected on 10:46 - Sep 22 with 2257 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour Connected on 10:40 - Sep 22 by tractordownsouth |
Saw that tweet from Grace Blakeley - she doesn't understand the definition of nationalism. Patriotism and nationalism are completely different things - one is about pride and optimism, the other creates division.
I'd like to see more policy content for sure, but these things have to be announced at a sensible time. Covid is the issue of the day, so focusing on that is. We know that Starmer is anti-austerity, which in itself puts a big gap between him and Johnson. Which policies will be kept and which policies will be dropped will be decided once we know the state of the economy post-Covid - although his commitment to ending austerity and promoting environmentalism will remain intact i'm sure. As one of the contributors to Politics Live pointed out, the last 2 Labour LOTOs who became PM won the leadership in the middle of a parliamentary term, so Starmer has to pace himself better when offering up specifics. |
That’s not strictly true. Ethnic nationalism is patriotic and causes division. Civic nationalism is patriotic and inclusive.
But we’re just talking small c, one-nation conservatism here rather than the civic nationalism of Starmer’s pledges. We can both surely agree that those pledges are over now, right? | |
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| Labour Connected on 10:51 - Sep 22 with 2228 views | tractordownsouth |
| Labour Connected on 10:30 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
We’ll see.
I think in appealing to the soft conservative majority he’s entirely missing the real challenges facing the UK. And in particular he can forget Scotland and others who want more progressive and less insular thinking.
Scotland didn’t fall back into line and support Labour in a general election as the not as bad as the Torres option, and I suspect we’ll see the same for a significant amount of Labour voters who will look to the Greens or another left UKIP-style disruptive party.
3 or 4 years out from an election is the opportunity to show genuine leadership and vision, and be forming the debate rather than showing you can play the game more competently. |
Saw a tweet saying that in 1997 Tony Blair could take the north for granted as he had those seats sewn up, so he had to appeal to middle class liberals in the south, whereas it's now the opposite for Labour.
Of course no voter base should be ignored, but Labour majorities in many seats in London are so large that focusing attention away from voters there and towards them in other areas for now seems sensible. Then that can be re-evaluated in the future if the North/Midlands are won back.
Obviously I'm aware I'm parroting the media generalisation of different groups of voters but I think there's a point in there somewhere | |
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| Labour Connected on 10:54 - Sep 22 with 2214 views | tractordownsouth |
| Labour Connected on 10:46 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
That’s not strictly true. Ethnic nationalism is patriotic and causes division. Civic nationalism is patriotic and inclusive.
But we’re just talking small c, one-nation conservatism here rather than the civic nationalism of Starmer’s pledges. We can both surely agree that those pledges are over now, right? |
I think at least a few of them are and to be honest I share your disappointment that he appears to have been economical with the truth to get elected. Don't get me wrong, he wasn't my first choice pick and I don't want all that stuff in the manifesto, but I can see why the left of the party may feel a bit disheartened.
Obviously time will tell whether they're kept but I understand what you mean. He's taking the party in a direction I'm more comfortable with but I wish he'd been elected on that ticket. | |
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| Labour Connected on 10:55 - Sep 22 with 2208 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour Connected on 10:44 - Sep 22 by StokieBlue |
I'm not really sure what you want to be honest. You know he is unlikely to get elected with what you want him to say and implement so it just looks like you want to be "right" rather than have any actual change in the general direction you want.
I don't believe we can get from where we are now to where you want us to be in one step which is what you seem to always suggest is the only way to go about things.
What am I missing?
SB |
There are 4 years of steps.
Which is why ceding the debate on the Tories’ terms is galling when there’s time to establish that message and form the discussion.
Seems to singularly fail to address the biggest changes in UK politics in recent years which is that the debate isn’t formed by central office. It’s from dissenters like UKIP and the SNP or social movements like BLM and XR. What they all have in common is that they’ve utterly outflanked the soft self-interested centre of UK politics.
These organisations address the real world and people’s hopes and fears (in UKIP/Brexit Party/EDL it’s far too much fear-based clearly). It would be nice to have major political parties take responsibility and ownership rather than being smugly self-satisfied with their electoral advantage. | |
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| Labour Connected on 11:04 - Sep 22 with 2182 views | Ryorry |
| Labour Connected on 10:55 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
There are 4 years of steps.
Which is why ceding the debate on the Tories’ terms is galling when there’s time to establish that message and form the discussion.
Seems to singularly fail to address the biggest changes in UK politics in recent years which is that the debate isn’t formed by central office. It’s from dissenters like UKIP and the SNP or social movements like BLM and XR. What they all have in common is that they’ve utterly outflanked the soft self-interested centre of UK politics.
These organisations address the real world and people’s hopes and fears (in UKIP/Brexit Party/EDL it’s far too much fear-based clearly). It would be nice to have major political parties take responsibility and ownership rather than being smugly self-satisfied with their electoral advantage. |
"It would be nice ..."
It'd be brilliant. But Labour gaining power will never happen the way you want.
Socialism has to be tempered *with realism* for Labour to oust the Todies at the next GE, & KS knows that thank goodness, as do the majority of sensible Labourites. Could do without people knocking him when he's only had the leadership for a few short months. Your negativity remnds me of Bluefish after 2 x 2-0 wins (albeit PL's obvs been in post for a helluva lot longer than KS). |  |
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| Labour Connected on 11:23 - Sep 22 with 2139 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour Connected on 11:04 - Sep 22 by Ryorry |
"It would be nice ..."
It'd be brilliant. But Labour gaining power will never happen the way you want.
Socialism has to be tempered *with realism* for Labour to oust the Todies at the next GE, & KS knows that thank goodness, as do the majority of sensible Labourites. Could do without people knocking him when he's only had the leadership for a few short months. Your negativity remnds me of Bluefish after 2 x 2-0 wins (albeit PL's obvs been in post for a helluva lot longer than KS). |
Well, we’ve seen how the mainstream political parties have managed the UK and dealt with the challenges of the last 40 years or so.
I think it’s fair to say it’s not really worked very well. This is the result of major parties taking their responsibilities in government and in opposition for granted, and focusing their efforts on performative stuff.
At the heart of this, among the politicians, media and too many of the electorate, there seems to be an acceptance that political parties can’t or shouldn’t really change anything. Which is why they’re increasingly marginalised and playing catch up with their policies even when in power. | |
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| Labour Connected on 11:38 - Sep 22 with 2115 views | Ryorry |
| Labour Connected on 11:23 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
Well, we’ve seen how the mainstream political parties have managed the UK and dealt with the challenges of the last 40 years or so.
I think it’s fair to say it’s not really worked very well. This is the result of major parties taking their responsibilities in government and in opposition for granted, and focusing their efforts on performative stuff.
At the heart of this, among the politicians, media and too many of the electorate, there seems to be an acceptance that political parties can’t or shouldn’t really change anything. Which is why they’re increasingly marginalised and playing catch up with their policies even when in power. |
Not perfect I agree, but surely better than the shower of sh1te currently in office.
Btw, I wasn't aware of this till yesterday - were you? So much for his loyalty then -
Edit - if you can't see the whole thing, JC challenged the leadership of every single labour leader from 1980 on, leading to Brian Wilson MP writing in the Indie 13/08/1995 "Has there ever been an August in the last 15 years when Jeremy Corbyn did not get on the news to denounce the Labour leadership, whatever one it was at the time?". [Post edited 22 Sep 2020 11:47]
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| Labour Connected on 11:44 - Sep 22 with 2105 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour Connected on 10:54 - Sep 22 by tractordownsouth |
I think at least a few of them are and to be honest I share your disappointment that he appears to have been economical with the truth to get elected. Don't get me wrong, he wasn't my first choice pick and I don't want all that stuff in the manifesto, but I can see why the left of the party may feel a bit disheartened.
Obviously time will tell whether they're kept but I understand what you mean. He's taking the party in a direction I'm more comfortable with but I wish he'd been elected on that ticket. |
I appreciate you accepting the 10 pledges were at best electioneering.
I can’t support that though. As I say, it’s a matter of policies for me and I have zero interest in Labour getting into power as a simple changing of the guard. Objectively, we’re so far beyond that in terms of addressing the issues of the UK in the 21st Century.
Personally, I’ll use the next few years to push for a change of leadership and direction in the Labour Party and a powerful push for Scottish independence that might indirectly achieve that. | |
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| Labour Connected on 11:53 - Sep 22 with 2085 views | Herbivore |
| Labour Connected on 11:44 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
I appreciate you accepting the 10 pledges were at best electioneering.
I can’t support that though. As I say, it’s a matter of policies for me and I have zero interest in Labour getting into power as a simple changing of the guard. Objectively, we’re so far beyond that in terms of addressing the issues of the UK in the 21st Century.
Personally, I’ll use the next few years to push for a change of leadership and direction in the Labour Party and a powerful push for Scottish independence that might indirectly achieve that. |
Although in doing so you are essentially becoming like the likes of lowhouse, who spent all of Corbyn's time as leader agitating for a change in leadership and criticising the party. That has simply enabled the worst Tory government in memory to return a whopping great majority. To decide early that you won't get behind Starmer is doing much the same thing. |  |
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| Labour Connected on 12:16 - Sep 22 with 2051 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour Connected on 11:53 - Sep 22 by Herbivore |
Although in doing so you are essentially becoming like the likes of lowhouse, who spent all of Corbyn's time as leader agitating for a change in leadership and criticising the party. That has simply enabled the worst Tory government in memory to return a whopping great majority. To decide early that you won't get behind Starmer is doing much the same thing. |
My issues with Starmer are policy related. I’m not going to slate him and smear him for who he is. | |
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| Labour Connected on 12:21 - Sep 22 with 2036 views | Herbivore |
| Labour Connected on 12:16 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
My issues with Starmer are policy related. I’m not going to slate him and smear him for who he is. |
Which policies? Shouldn't you wait to see at least the outline of a manifesto before pitching yourself against him less than 6 months into his leadership? | |
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| Labour Connected on 12:38 - Sep 22 with 1992 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour Connected on 12:21 - Sep 22 by Herbivore |
Which policies? Shouldn't you wait to see at least the outline of a manifesto before pitching yourself against him less than 6 months into his leadership? |
Exactly!
Clarity on his policies is a must given he’s seemingly abandoned his 10 pledges. But I reserve the right to criticise a party that doesn’t on the face of it offer anything beyond the same performative politics that have failed for the past couple of decades.
I support Labour when they are somewhat aligned with the SNP but not when they’re now in opposition. | |
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| Labour Connected on 12:47 - Sep 22 with 1954 views | Herbivore |
| Labour Connected on 12:38 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
Exactly!
Clarity on his policies is a must given he’s seemingly abandoned his 10 pledges. But I reserve the right to criticise a party that doesn’t on the face of it offer anything beyond the same performative politics that have failed for the past couple of decades.
I support Labour when they are somewhat aligned with the SNP but not when they’re now in opposition. |
He's 6 months into being leader and for the whole of that time we've had a pandemic going on. You may be desperate for policy pledges at this point but you'd be in a pretty small minority. There won't be a GE for 4 years, any policies put forward now, especially during an all consuming pandemic, will get lost in the ether and have limited impact.
Labour has to get past a crushing election defeat and a crisis of confidence from the public. For now it's a rebuilding job and that's what he's focusing on. I don't see the issue with that, he needs to try to at least get to a point where people might be willing to listen to the Labour Party again. When he's there and he starts to flesh out policy that's when I'll make a call on whether I'll back Starmer's Labour or not. Anything else seems massively premature and, for me, is basically a mirror image of what Labour 'supporters' like lowhouse did with Corbyn's Labour. | |
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| Labour Connected on 12:56 - Sep 22 with 1935 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour Connected on 12:47 - Sep 22 by Herbivore |
He's 6 months into being leader and for the whole of that time we've had a pandemic going on. You may be desperate for policy pledges at this point but you'd be in a pretty small minority. There won't be a GE for 4 years, any policies put forward now, especially during an all consuming pandemic, will get lost in the ether and have limited impact.
Labour has to get past a crushing election defeat and a crisis of confidence from the public. For now it's a rebuilding job and that's what he's focusing on. I don't see the issue with that, he needs to try to at least get to a point where people might be willing to listen to the Labour Party again. When he's there and he starts to flesh out policy that's when I'll make a call on whether I'll back Starmer's Labour or not. Anything else seems massively premature and, for me, is basically a mirror image of what Labour 'supporters' like lowhouse did with Corbyn's Labour. |
Fair enough. We’ll have to agree to disagree, I’m afraid.
I don’t see this as some important and optimistic long game either, quite the opposite. I’m evidently scarred by decades of this country tacking to the right and inexcusably aided and abetted by “effective” opposition leaders who have gone with the flow. | |
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| Labour Connected on 13:14 - Sep 22 with 1905 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Labour Connected on 12:38 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
Exactly!
Clarity on his policies is a must given he’s seemingly abandoned his 10 pledges. But I reserve the right to criticise a party that doesn’t on the face of it offer anything beyond the same performative politics that have failed for the past couple of decades.
I support Labour when they are somewhat aligned with the SNP but not when they’re now in opposition. |
There’s no point making policies right now as by the time the election comes around the country will be in a completely different place, what with an ongoing pandemic and the inevitable economic consequences. Therefore doing so will just lead to inevitable criticism if they’re forced to backtrack or change tack, whether it’s reasonable to do so or not
You’d almost certainly be at the front of the queue too |  |
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| Labour Connected on 13:40 - Sep 22 with 1865 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour Connected on 13:14 - Sep 22 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
There’s no point making policies right now as by the time the election comes around the country will be in a completely different place, what with an ongoing pandemic and the inevitable economic consequences. Therefore doing so will just lead to inevitable criticism if they’re forced to backtrack or change tack, whether it’s reasonable to do so or not
You’d almost certainly be at the front of the queue too |
I’m not asking for detailed and costed policies. Clearly those are only needed in advance of an election.
I do need some sense of a policy approach though and pledges being kept, and the past 6 months have been an increasing disappointment on that score. Starmer’s first major speech setting out the focus just confirms it. | |
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| Labour Connected on 13:58 - Sep 22 with 1828 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Labour Connected on 13:40 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
I’m not asking for detailed and costed policies. Clearly those are only needed in advance of an election.
I do need some sense of a policy approach though and pledges being kept, and the past 6 months have been an increasing disappointment on that score. Starmer’s first major speech setting out the focus just confirms it. |
“I do need some sense of a policy approach...”
“Starmer’s first major speech setting out the focus...”
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| Labour Connected on 14:38 - Sep 22 with 1790 views | Ryorry |
| Labour Connected on 12:56 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
Fair enough. We’ll have to agree to disagree, I’m afraid.
I don’t see this as some important and optimistic long game either, quite the opposite. I’m evidently scarred by decades of this country tacking to the right and inexcusably aided and abetted by “effective” opposition leaders who have gone with the flow. |
What's the point of waving about drawings of Utopia from an Ivory Tower when you literally don't stand an earthly chance of the people you need to give you the necessary planning permission, actually giving it to you?
Better to get down on the ground & consult with them about the kind of plans for sustainable housing, developments, communities and businesses that the majority want, see as achievable, and give you the go ahead for. That'd already be at least 10 x better than what we currently have. | |
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