| Labour Connected 09:44 - Sep 22 with 6996 views | tractordownsouth |
Quite enjoyed that speech from Starmer at the virtual conference. Of course I'm a bit biased, but it was good to see more emotional appeal in there - attacking Tory incompetence, rather than Tory ideology seems like a good plan for the early days of the parliamentary term - that can become the focus later on. It was quite light on policy, but it's still early for any major announcements, especially on a day where it'll get lost in the lockdown news cycle
Was glad to see Ruth Smeeth doing the intro as well, hopefully she'll be back in parliament in 2024. |  |
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| Labour Connected on 14:44 - Sep 22 with 3660 views | MonkeyAlan |
I don't trust Starmer. He is the guy who wants to slip through a policy where by everyone who owns or buys a house, pays a tax each year on it. So, because you have worked hard to buy, or are struggling to pay a mortgage, you can get penalized for this, by giving the government upwards of 2-3 grand annually on top of trying to find money to pay the blo0dy mortgage. |  | | |
| Labour Connected on 14:48 - Sep 22 with 3641 views | Herbivore |
| Labour Connected on 14:44 - Sep 22 by MonkeyAlan |
I don't trust Starmer. He is the guy who wants to slip through a policy where by everyone who owns or buys a house, pays a tax each year on it. So, because you have worked hard to buy, or are struggling to pay a mortgage, you can get penalized for this, by giving the government upwards of 2-3 grand annually on top of trying to find money to pay the blo0dy mortgage. |
Luckily for you he won't be running for PM in the Land of Make-believe. |  |
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| Labour Connected on 14:50 - Sep 22 with 3640 views | MonkeyAlan |
| Labour Connected on 14:48 - Sep 22 by Herbivore |
Luckily for you he won't be running for PM in the Land of Make-believe. |
Lucky he wont get anywhere near running the country full stop. He is no better than Corbyn. And that's saying something with the gremlins that are running the country at the moment. | | | |
| Labour Connected on 14:59 - Sep 22 with 3616 views | Ryorry |
| Labour Connected on 14:44 - Sep 22 by MonkeyAlan |
I don't trust Starmer. He is the guy who wants to slip through a policy where by everyone who owns or buys a house, pays a tax each year on it. So, because you have worked hard to buy, or are struggling to pay a mortgage, you can get penalized for this, by giving the government upwards of 2-3 grand annually on top of trying to find money to pay the blo0dy mortgage. |
So where's he set that out? Link please. |  |
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| Labour Connected on 15:09 - Sep 22 with 3603 views | MonkeyAlan |
| Labour Connected on 14:59 - Sep 22 by Ryorry |
So where's he set that out? Link please. |
I read it in a news paper a few weeks back. Can't remember which one. But it was in there. That's his plan apparently. | | | |
| Labour Connected on 15:15 - Sep 22 with 3589 views | Herbivore |
| Labour Connected on 15:09 - Sep 22 by MonkeyAlan |
I read it in a news paper a few weeks back. Can't remember which one. But it was in there. That's his plan apparently. |
Worst 'comedy' creation ever. | |
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| Labour Connected on 15:34 - Sep 22 with 3564 views | Ryorry |
Ah, thanks, looks like a bit of cherry picking to suit various purposes has been going on!
Apart from anything else, that proposal was just one amongst innumerable other proposals in the 2019 manifestos which weren't all that likely to see the light of day as bills, particularly since its prime movers seem to have been J. Corbyn + the Labour Land Campaign, a party pressure group backed by him; + J. McDonnell | |
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| Labour Connected on 15:37 - Sep 22 with 3559 views | Ryorry |
| Labour Connected on 15:09 - Sep 22 by MonkeyAlan |
I read it in a news paper a few weeks back. Can't remember which one. But it was in there. That's his plan apparently. |
Do you like pickles or chutney, as well as vinegar, on your chips that are encased by your newspapers? 🤔 | |
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| Labour Connected on 15:42 - Sep 22 with 3548 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Labour Connected on 15:34 - Sep 22 by Ryorry |
Ah, thanks, looks like a bit of cherry picking to suit various purposes has been going on!
Apart from anything else, that proposal was just one amongst innumerable other proposals in the 2019 manifestos which weren't all that likely to see the light of day as bills, particularly since its prime movers seem to have been J. Corbyn + the Labour Land Campaign, a party pressure group backed by him; + J. McDonnell |
It was in the 2017 manifesto and has been backed by T.Blair amongst others. |  | | |
| Labour Connected on 15:47 - Sep 22 with 3535 views | Ryorry |
| Labour Connected on 15:42 - Sep 22 by Clapham_Junction |
It was in the 2017 manifesto and has been backed by T.Blair amongst others. |
As an alternative to council tax. And has it ever even been debated in the chamber in the past 3 years? | |
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| Labour Connected on 15:47 - Sep 22 with 3534 views | StokieBlue |
| Labour Connected on 15:42 - Sep 22 by Clapham_Junction |
It was in the 2017 manifesto and has been backed by T.Blair amongst others. |
If those numbers in the article are correct (which I doubt as it's clearly a rubbish article) then many would struggle to pay it.
SB |  |
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| Labour Connected on 20:53 - Sep 22 with 3489 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Labour Connected on 11:44 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
I appreciate you accepting the 10 pledges were at best electioneering.
I can’t support that though. As I say, it’s a matter of policies for me and I have zero interest in Labour getting into power as a simple changing of the guard. Objectively, we’re so far beyond that in terms of addressing the issues of the UK in the 21st Century.
Personally, I’ll use the next few years to push for a change of leadership and direction in the Labour Party and a powerful push for Scottish independence that might indirectly achieve that. |
You're quite right that ultimately it's the policies that matter to us and should be what it's all about.
Two points on that though:
1. Policies (plural) don't really matter to the current electorate. A single issue and an easily memorable and repeatable slogan (doesn't have to make sense) is all it takes. Was it this election or the previous that the Tories didn't even have a manifesto, or barely one, I can't remember? But they haven't won an election off the back off policies for a number of goes now. In the current world, your view is maybe slightly idealistic? Maybe that's unfair, as solid policies is what we need. I'm just not convinced the public would be receptive enough in large enough numbers to win an election.
2. I'm not sure the time is right. That speech today was all about penance for screwing up the last election so badly and appealing to the lost voters. I think Starmer was right in saying that it's going to take time to build trust again. They lost the election on points such as being unpatriotic ('the terrorist sympathiser') and out of touch ('70s policies'). That Johnson is probably a lot closer to treason and this government have spent more nationalising services and propping up the state than any government in living memory is irrelevant - the damage was done and that's a wound that has to be healed. Policies can come later, but for now he can build trust through effectively challenging the government (which has been going well so far). |  |
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| Labour Connected on 21:33 - Sep 22 with 3475 views | m14_blue |
| Labour Connected on 10:30 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
We’ll see.
I think in appealing to the soft conservative majority he’s entirely missing the real challenges facing the UK. And in particular he can forget Scotland and others who want more progressive and less insular thinking.
Scotland didn’t fall back into line and support Labour in a general election as the not as bad as the Torres option, and I suspect we’ll see the same for a significant amount of Labour voters who will look to the Greens or another left UKIP-style disruptive party.
3 or 4 years out from an election is the opportunity to show genuine leadership and vision, and be forming the debate rather than showing you can play the game more competently. |
Scotland also roundly rejected the policies and politics of the Corbyn Labour Party that was offering something completely different.
Scotland is lost to the nationalists as long as we have the preposterous FPTP system.
You paid lip service to giving Starmer a chance but the truth is you’d made up your mind right from the start. I agree that we need to see what he really stands for but right now having an intelligent, articulate, professional politician on the front benches, the complete antithesis of Johnson, is a good start.
You may well be shown to be right in time, personally I have really high hopes, but I do think you’re letting your continued frustration at the treatment of JC make you overly harsh on KS. |  | | |
| Labour Connected on 21:34 - Sep 22 with 3476 views | Trequartista |
He's saying the right things, but comes across as a bit of a wet lettuce though and you know what the British public are like for personalities over policies when they come to vote. |  |
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| Labour Connected on 21:57 - Sep 22 with 3458 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Labour Connected on 21:33 - Sep 22 by m14_blue |
Scotland also roundly rejected the policies and politics of the Corbyn Labour Party that was offering something completely different.
Scotland is lost to the nationalists as long as we have the preposterous FPTP system.
You paid lip service to giving Starmer a chance but the truth is you’d made up your mind right from the start. I agree that we need to see what he really stands for but right now having an intelligent, articulate, professional politician on the front benches, the complete antithesis of Johnson, is a good start.
You may well be shown to be right in time, personally I have really high hopes, but I do think you’re letting your continued frustration at the treatment of JC make you overly harsh on KS. |
I'm not sure FPTP is the issue for Labour in Scotland. The Scottish Parliament is elected partially by PR, with voters getting one vote in a FPTP constituency and one under PR. but Labour (and the Tories) are polling at roughly the same vote share in both FPTP and PR votes.
From the polls, it looks like the only significant difference PR makes is that 10% of voters would vote SNP in FPTP constituencies but Green in the PR vote. | | | |
| Labour Connected on 23:30 - Sep 22 with 3424 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Labour Connected on 15:09 - Sep 22 by MonkeyAlan |
I read it in a news paper a few weeks back. Can't remember which one. But it was in there. That's his plan apparently. |
My money's on the Mail |  | | |
| Labour Connected on 06:05 - Sep 23 with 3387 views | m14_blue |
| Labour Connected on 21:57 - Sep 22 by Clapham_Junction |
I'm not sure FPTP is the issue for Labour in Scotland. The Scottish Parliament is elected partially by PR, with voters getting one vote in a FPTP constituency and one under PR. but Labour (and the Tories) are polling at roughly the same vote share in both FPTP and PR votes.
From the polls, it looks like the only significant difference PR makes is that 10% of voters would vote SNP in FPTP constituencies but Green in the PR vote. |
Interesting, thanks.
I was looking at the fact that a party with 45% of the vote has pretty much all of the seats in Westminster. You’re right that a change wouldn’t necessarily benefit Labour any more than anyone else. | | | |
| Labour Connected on 07:17 - Sep 23 with 3364 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour Connected on 21:33 - Sep 22 by m14_blue |
Scotland also roundly rejected the policies and politics of the Corbyn Labour Party that was offering something completely different.
Scotland is lost to the nationalists as long as we have the preposterous FPTP system.
You paid lip service to giving Starmer a chance but the truth is you’d made up your mind right from the start. I agree that we need to see what he really stands for but right now having an intelligent, articulate, professional politician on the front benches, the complete antithesis of Johnson, is a good start.
You may well be shown to be right in time, personally I have really high hopes, but I do think you’re letting your continued frustration at the treatment of JC make you overly harsh on KS. |
Scotland rejected Labour and progressive policies because the SNP fill that gap - and that’s been a process 2 decades in the making ever since the much awaited Labour government revealed itself to be the same ineffective government ignoring the same widening structural and regional imbalances. I believe it would have taken a fairly radical and transformative UK government to even start reversing that.
But as I’ve repeatedly said, Scotland is gone electorally and the new, exciting competence platform is not much of a selling point either as they’ve got that on the ground and on their terms with Sturgeon and the Scottish government.
And thanks for telling me what I was really thinking about Starmer. I gave him more than a chance straight off the bat after the election when he talked about maintaining the same progressive platform that had engaged voters outside of the Brexit trap. And I was really pleased that he confirmed that with his 10 pledges.
However, he’s proven the opposite since he got elected as leader. And I now don’t have any confidence in him and especially the Shadow Cabinet he assembled to fight for and promote the change needed. It’s Blair all over again, as if we’ve learnt absolutely nothing about what the country really needs from an opposition party and where that approach of sliding right has gone fatally wrong. In particular by exacerbating the very same socioeconomic imbalances that have resulted in the last decade of political upheaval that the Tories are always better placed to exploit on nationalist/populist grounds.
I’m perfectly happy about switching my support away from that empty politics and the resulting weak policies. I’ll go back to voting Green, promoting the independence cause, and seeing the Labour Party as part of the underlying problem just like I was before 2015.
Good luck with whatever you’re hoping for in 4 years’ time and while, amongst other things, the number of children living in poverty goes past 5 million, we keep talking about climate change and we see regional and socioeconomic divisions in the UK increasing. I’m sure the flag-shagging, nurse-clapping, media-briefing politics will be worth it. |  |
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| Labour Connected on 08:03 - Sep 23 with 3338 views | Herbivore |
| Labour Connected on 07:17 - Sep 23 by Darth_Koont |
Scotland rejected Labour and progressive policies because the SNP fill that gap - and that’s been a process 2 decades in the making ever since the much awaited Labour government revealed itself to be the same ineffective government ignoring the same widening structural and regional imbalances. I believe it would have taken a fairly radical and transformative UK government to even start reversing that.
But as I’ve repeatedly said, Scotland is gone electorally and the new, exciting competence platform is not much of a selling point either as they’ve got that on the ground and on their terms with Sturgeon and the Scottish government.
And thanks for telling me what I was really thinking about Starmer. I gave him more than a chance straight off the bat after the election when he talked about maintaining the same progressive platform that had engaged voters outside of the Brexit trap. And I was really pleased that he confirmed that with his 10 pledges.
However, he’s proven the opposite since he got elected as leader. And I now don’t have any confidence in him and especially the Shadow Cabinet he assembled to fight for and promote the change needed. It’s Blair all over again, as if we’ve learnt absolutely nothing about what the country really needs from an opposition party and where that approach of sliding right has gone fatally wrong. In particular by exacerbating the very same socioeconomic imbalances that have resulted in the last decade of political upheaval that the Tories are always better placed to exploit on nationalist/populist grounds.
I’m perfectly happy about switching my support away from that empty politics and the resulting weak policies. I’ll go back to voting Green, promoting the independence cause, and seeing the Labour Party as part of the underlying problem just like I was before 2015.
Good luck with whatever you’re hoping for in 4 years’ time and while, amongst other things, the number of children living in poverty goes past 5 million, we keep talking about climate change and we see regional and socioeconomic divisions in the UK increasing. I’m sure the flag-shagging, nurse-clapping, media-briefing politics will be worth it. |
Ultimately you can't change stuff like child poverty when in opposition. And if you think you can then Corbyn must have been ineffective in opposition as child poverty continued to go up whilst he was Labour leader. You have basically done a reverse lowhouse here, which is disappointing. [Post edited 23 Sep 2020 8:33]
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| Labour Connected on 08:15 - Sep 23 with 3330 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour Connected on 08:03 - Sep 23 by Herbivore |
Ultimately you can't change stuff like child poverty when in opposition. And if you think you can then Corbyn must have been ineffective in opposition as child poverty continued to go up whilst he was Labour leader. You have basically done a reverse lowhouse here, which is disappointing. [Post edited 23 Sep 2020 8:33]
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I think you’re misjudging how I see politics completely. And not just how I’ve seen party politics over the past 30-odd years but also how politics is happening outside and in spite of our electoral system on almost all the major issues.
Labour under Corbyn at least brought this stuff into the debate, even if it doesn’t interest the vast majority of MPs or the media, and now they’re going back to the performative stuff. Let’s see what happens there because I have zero faith in traditional UK politics to be a help rather than a hindrance nowadays.
Surely you can at least recognise that I’ve consistently held that same position over the past few years? Why would I go all tribal suddenly, especially if I think that Starmer and the Labour right isn’t the answer and it’s the same mistake again? | |
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| Labour Connected on 08:24 - Sep 23 with 3315 views | Herbivore |
| Labour Connected on 08:15 - Sep 23 by Darth_Koont |
I think you’re misjudging how I see politics completely. And not just how I’ve seen party politics over the past 30-odd years but also how politics is happening outside and in spite of our electoral system on almost all the major issues.
Labour under Corbyn at least brought this stuff into the debate, even if it doesn’t interest the vast majority of MPs or the media, and now they’re going back to the performative stuff. Let’s see what happens there because I have zero faith in traditional UK politics to be a help rather than a hindrance nowadays.
Surely you can at least recognise that I’ve consistently held that same position over the past few years? Why would I go all tribal suddenly, especially if I think that Starmer and the Labour right isn’t the answer and it’s the same mistake again? |
I just think you've gone massively early on this to be honest. Whether you think it's a principled position is of course on you, we all know our own values and act according to them. I am willing to see what comes policy wise from Starmer and understand the need for now to undo the reputational damage the party has suffered if they are ever going to be able to sell their policies to them and have a chance of enacting them. It's all well and good to say that Corbyn brought stuff into the debate, but he hasn't stopped the rise in child poverty. Marcus Rashford has done more for kids in poverty than Jeremy Corbyn. As I've said to BDS before, ideological purity doesn't mean a lot to people who are homeless and living in poverty. They need actual change.
I can only comment from the outside looking in and as I've said, it does smack of basically doing what you've pilloried lowhouse and others for over the years when it comes to the Labour Party. We're 6 months in and 4 years away from a GE and, if we're honest, you've been pretty anti-Starmer for most of the time he's been leader. It does feel like you have made a judgement about him without even giving him the chance to develop aa manifesto or policy and it does seem that you refuse to accept what a massive mess he inherited and how much work is involved in just undoing some of that mess. | |
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| Labour Connected on 09:00 - Sep 23 with 3294 views | tractordownsouth |
| Labour Connected on 10:55 - Sep 22 by Darth_Koont |
There are 4 years of steps.
Which is why ceding the debate on the Tories’ terms is galling when there’s time to establish that message and form the discussion.
Seems to singularly fail to address the biggest changes in UK politics in recent years which is that the debate isn’t formed by central office. It’s from dissenters like UKIP and the SNP or social movements like BLM and XR. What they all have in common is that they’ve utterly outflanked the soft self-interested centre of UK politics.
These organisations address the real world and people’s hopes and fears (in UKIP/Brexit Party/EDL it’s far too much fear-based clearly). It would be nice to have major political parties take responsibility and ownership rather than being smugly self-satisfied with their electoral advantage. |
The point about outflanking is a fair one - I think Miliband suffered from that as there was no clear message at that point. However, pushing to ideological extremes doesn't work for a party of government. UKIP/Brexit Party and the Greens can be as idealistic as they want because they know that they won't be in power - the best they can hope is to influence one of the big 2. Back in 2015, immigration was arguably the biggest single issue, yet UKIP only won 12% of the vote, despite their entire campaign being about immigration, because their extremism put off large swathes of the public.
Green and anti-austerity policies should be at the centre of the next Labour manifesto, but by embracing the likes of XR with their extreme methods, it will push many moderates away. As nice as it may be to transform the economic system in one swoop, activism is about bringing undecideds over to your side of the argument, and moderate change with a clear and optimistic message is the best way to do that. I too wish politics was less about media handling, but sadly that's the game and it has to be played to be able to bring in the change we want. | |
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| Labour Connected on 10:03 - Sep 23 with 3269 views | StokieBlue |
| Labour Connected on 08:15 - Sep 23 by Darth_Koont |
I think you’re misjudging how I see politics completely. And not just how I’ve seen party politics over the past 30-odd years but also how politics is happening outside and in spite of our electoral system on almost all the major issues.
Labour under Corbyn at least brought this stuff into the debate, even if it doesn’t interest the vast majority of MPs or the media, and now they’re going back to the performative stuff. Let’s see what happens there because I have zero faith in traditional UK politics to be a help rather than a hindrance nowadays.
Surely you can at least recognise that I’ve consistently held that same position over the past few years? Why would I go all tribal suddenly, especially if I think that Starmer and the Labour right isn’t the answer and it’s the same mistake again? |
What is the point of bringing stuff into the debate if you lose the election to one of the largest majorities in history? All that's been achieved is that a very poor Tory government has been enabled to really show how rubbish they are.
Surely supporting Starmer to a win is far better than having another internal fight within Labour and another Tory victory?
I just think it's naive to push for such change in one large swoop, it is far more likely to be achieved by smaller steps over a period of time once actually in power.
You are right that you've been consistent in your position, however nothing has changed in all that time and probably things are even worse now so perhaps it's worth considering that?
SB | |
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| Labour Connected on 10:21 - Sep 23 with 3256 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour Connected on 08:24 - Sep 23 by Herbivore |
I just think you've gone massively early on this to be honest. Whether you think it's a principled position is of course on you, we all know our own values and act according to them. I am willing to see what comes policy wise from Starmer and understand the need for now to undo the reputational damage the party has suffered if they are ever going to be able to sell their policies to them and have a chance of enacting them. It's all well and good to say that Corbyn brought stuff into the debate, but he hasn't stopped the rise in child poverty. Marcus Rashford has done more for kids in poverty than Jeremy Corbyn. As I've said to BDS before, ideological purity doesn't mean a lot to people who are homeless and living in poverty. They need actual change.
I can only comment from the outside looking in and as I've said, it does smack of basically doing what you've pilloried lowhouse and others for over the years when it comes to the Labour Party. We're 6 months in and 4 years away from a GE and, if we're honest, you've been pretty anti-Starmer for most of the time he's been leader. It does feel like you have made a judgement about him without even giving him the chance to develop aa manifesto or policy and it does seem that you refuse to accept what a massive mess he inherited and how much work is involved in just undoing some of that mess. |
Similarly, I think Starmer has gone massively early to distance himself from the policies and the hope that was energising and engaging the people he’ll need to campaign for him. Voters have a short memory - campaigners don’t. He’s also lost people like me who would be largely supportive but now feel largely critical based on me now not trusting him on his principles or his strategy.
And it’s not a question of ideological purity. It’s my sincere belief that politics needs to deal with real-world problems or suffer the consequences, and I certainly don’t think it works along the same top-down party political lines anymore.
Starter and the centrists will be outflanked again and again the more they retreat into chasing the votes for electoral gains. Not realising that even the Tories have co-opted movements themselves to stay relevant. I despise Cummings et al and the way they game the system but they’ve understood fully the need to outflank the rational yet passive majority. Using the clarity and strength (however misguided) of the Leave voters they’ve set the agenda entirely.
I think it’s insane of the Labour Party to not take the lesson and understand that movements like XR, BLM, Corbynism and even the real underlying drivers of Scottish independence and Brexit are critical to their success and can’t be casually cast aside or ignored to please a soft Establishment or a media that the right-wingers will always be able to bring onside around their version of family, country, opportunity, taxation, etc. The Blairite move was a one-time deal because they could count on the loyalty of Labour supporters but that ship has sailed. Plus there’s nothing like the reliance on the mainstream political system nowadays.
All in all, I think Labour need to get out of their traditional party bubble to wake up to the real-world issues AND how to be effective in opposition. | |
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