| Serious answers only please 22:39 - Jan 6 with 3880 views | SpruceMoose |
Are we still supposed to listen to these Very Real Concerns and be the bigger people by reaching across the aisle to unify? |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Serious answers only please on 22:45 - Jan 6 with 2562 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
Yes. Talking and listening is good. People should be able to debate views in the right way and the right context but that includes listening properly to evidence.
I think Biden truly believes this too. He is no mug but wants to bring some sense of unity. A very different type of President to Trump, thankfully. |  |
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| Serious answers only please on 22:47 - Jan 6 with 2546 views | SpruceMoose |
| Serious answers only please on 22:45 - Jan 6 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Yes. Talking and listening is good. People should be able to debate views in the right way and the right context but that includes listening properly to evidence.
I think Biden truly believes this too. He is no mug but wants to bring some sense of unity. A very different type of President to Trump, thankfully. |
OK. What do you say, and what do you expect to hear back? | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Serious answers only please on 22:50 - Jan 6 with 2525 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Serious answers only please on 22:47 - Jan 6 by SpruceMoose |
OK. What do you say, and what do you expect to hear back? |
This is the problem, too many are so entrenched and will not listen. I agree that misinformation should be challenged on social media platforms too. It is good that Twitter has been prepared to do this to the President too.
Ultimately, there is a careful balance between freedom of speech and preventing unacceptable things.
What specifically have you in mind? | |
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| Serious answers only please on 22:53 - Jan 6 with 2503 views | SpruceMoose |
| Serious answers only please on 22:50 - Jan 6 by Nthsuffolkblue |
This is the problem, too many are so entrenched and will not listen. I agree that misinformation should be challenged on social media platforms too. It is good that Twitter has been prepared to do this to the President too.
Ultimately, there is a careful balance between freedom of speech and preventing unacceptable things.
What specifically have you in mind? |
I genuinely have no idea. That's why I asked, I don't now how to bring these terrorists back to a place where a realistic conversation is even possible. It's not as if it hasn't been tried either. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Serious answers only please on 22:55 - Jan 6 with 2481 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Serious answers only please on 22:53 - Jan 6 by SpruceMoose |
I genuinely have no idea. That's why I asked, I don't now how to bring these terrorists back to a place where a realistic conversation is even possible. It's not as if it hasn't been tried either. |
The terrorists are about to meet the authorities. I am talking in wider terms about challenges through the courts to democratic processes. They have been heard, the evidence has been demonstrated to not exist. Anyone who continues to argue it needs to be put right. Unfortunately these rioters are the product of people living in an echo chamber perpetuated at a very high level. | |
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| Serious answers only please on 23:08 - Jan 6 with 2431 views | Mercian |
These divisions were bought to a head when Abe Lincoln was elected in 1860. After the civil war weak governments failed to deal with and even appease those who wanted to retain slavery. It again came to a head in the 1950s/60s after which things improved but divisions widened. Then in 2016 a man was elected who supported their views. Now they have lost and attempting a coup. I would be prepared to cross the aisle to work with Boris but I would not with Trump. |  | | |
| Serious answers only please on 23:19 - Jan 6 with 2374 views | ElderGrizzly |
I’m wondering after this, will the 12 senators still stand up and reject the electoral college votes?
They are apparently going back in tonight to finish off the vote ‘count’ |  | | |
| Serious answers only please on 23:22 - Jan 6 with 2360 views | SpruceMoose |
| Serious answers only please on 23:19 - Jan 6 by ElderGrizzly |
I’m wondering after this, will the 12 senators still stand up and reject the electoral college votes?
They are apparently going back in tonight to finish off the vote ‘count’ |
Would you be surprised if today didn't change a single thing for them? | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Serious answers only please on 23:26 - Jan 6 with 2348 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Serious answers only please on 23:22 - Jan 6 by SpruceMoose |
Would you be surprised if today didn't change a single thing for them? |
There is a huge amount of disdain in my post.
These senators/congressmen have no shame, so of course they will carry on and “do it for the patriots”.
They will be interested in protecting their access to Trump’s base for their own 2024 run | | | |
| Serious answers only please on 23:28 - Jan 6 with 2342 views | SpruceMoose |
| Serious answers only please on 23:26 - Jan 6 by ElderGrizzly |
There is a huge amount of disdain in my post.
These senators/congressmen have no shame, so of course they will carry on and “do it for the patriots”.
They will be interested in protecting their access to Trump’s base for their own 2024 run |
Would impeachment prevent Trump from holding public office again? | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Serious answers only please on 23:30 - Jan 6 with 2323 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Serious answers only please on 23:28 - Jan 6 by SpruceMoose |
Would impeachment prevent Trump from holding public office again? |
I believe so.
Prison will do too | | | |
| Serious answers only please on 23:43 - Jan 6 with 2284 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Serious answers only please on 23:30 - Jan 6 by ElderGrizzly |
I believe so.
Prison will do too |
Conway confirming it
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| Serious answers only please on 23:45 - Jan 6 with 2271 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Serious answers only please on 23:43 - Jan 6 by ElderGrizzly |
Conway confirming it
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And the 25th could be on tonight!
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| Serious answers only please on 00:01 - Jan 7 with 2202 views | Guthrum |
Yes, because otherwise we'll simply be feeding more people into the machine which has produced these Trumpists.
That's not to say giving them everything they demand in their current guise (as driven by tweets and populist media). More making sure that sectors of society or geographical regions do not fall socially or economically behind. That people are not left feeling disenfranchised. That wealth does not end up concentrated in certain places or with particular people.
If fairness and a more corporate (as in body, not business) approach is taken, people feel invested in things working, rather than left out in the cold. Which leaves them prey to demagoguery. |  |
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| Serious answers only please on 07:25 - Jan 7 with 2065 views | Steve_M |
| Serious answers only please on 00:01 - Jan 7 by Guthrum |
Yes, because otherwise we'll simply be feeding more people into the machine which has produced these Trumpists.
That's not to say giving them everything they demand in their current guise (as driven by tweets and populist media). More making sure that sectors of society or geographical regions do not fall socially or economically behind. That people are not left feeling disenfranchised. That wealth does not end up concentrated in certain places or with particular people.
If fairness and a more corporate (as in body, not business) approach is taken, people feel invested in things working, rather than left out in the cold. Which leaves them prey to demagoguery. |
Indeed. Most of those yesterday have very little that should be listened to but that does not go for everyone who voted Trump. Given the widespread disinformation pumped out by Fox News and even worse places on Facebook then there must be people whose minds can be changed - not trying is a route solely to further polarisation. |  |
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| Serious answers only please on 07:31 - Jan 7 with 2053 views | GlasgowBlue |
Yes. Decades of failure to listen and engage with people has resulted in the election of Trump and Brexit.
As I used to say about [redacted] on here; engage with him. Point out why he is wrong and calmly produce the evidence to counter his beliefs.
Calling people names and belittling their perceptions leads to them feeling disenfranchised and easy pickings for the likes of Trump, Farage, Tommy Robinson etc etc. |  |
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| Serious answers only please on 07:50 - Jan 7 with 2009 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Serious answers only please on 07:31 - Jan 7 by GlasgowBlue |
Yes. Decades of failure to listen and engage with people has resulted in the election of Trump and Brexit.
As I used to say about [redacted] on here; engage with him. Point out why he is wrong and calmly produce the evidence to counter his beliefs.
Calling people names and belittling their perceptions leads to them feeling disenfranchised and easy pickings for the likes of Trump, Farage, Tommy Robinson etc etc. |
The problem is, very high profile politicians add fuel to the fire, like the Matt Gaetz thing i just posted above on AntiFA
They don’t look beyond the initial claim once it is debunked 30 minutes later with actual evidence | | | |
| Serious answers only please on 07:54 - Jan 7 with 1980 views | thebooks |
Not the ‘concerns’ themselves — they’re either right or wrong, dangerous or not dangerous.
This is the mistake Labour made here for years over things like immigration.
However, there have to be causes for this (and Brexit, as GB notes). I don’t believe a ‘rational’ argument works, often because that comes loaded with a bunch of assumptions as well (e.g. in the case of Brexit, that the EU was a solely good thing).
You need to address the why of Brexit, Trumpism etc. and I’d say that’s down to decades of economic neglect, and an acceptance that there are winners and losers from deindustrialisation etc.
(Incidentally, I know that’s a very simplistic take. I don’t really have the answer to your question as it’s a very difficult one!) |  | | |
| Serious answers only please on 07:56 - Jan 7 with 1968 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Serious answers only please on 07:50 - Jan 7 by ElderGrizzly |
The problem is, very high profile politicians add fuel to the fire, like the Matt Gaetz thing i just posted above on AntiFA
They don’t look beyond the initial claim once it is debunked 30 minutes later with actual evidence |
Stuff like “immigrants get £thousands in benefits”, “immigrants jump the housing queue” are very easy to counter with real facts. There is no reason not to at least try to educate people with facts.
Completely agree that sections of the media in tandem with our politicians isn’t help perpetuate these myths. [Post edited 7 Jan 2021 8:08]
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| Serious answers only please on 08:51 - Jan 7 with 1894 views | DanTheMan |
| Serious answers only please on 07:56 - Jan 7 by GlasgowBlue |
Stuff like “immigrants get £thousands in benefits”, “immigrants jump the housing queue” are very easy to counter with real facts. There is no reason not to at least try to educate people with facts.
Completely agree that sections of the media in tandem with our politicians isn’t help perpetuate these myths. [Post edited 7 Jan 2021 8:08]
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You can counter with as many facts as you like, they just don't listen. It's not really their fault, it's just how humans work.
And now it's much easier to shun those facts and get a catered world view through one of many social media sites. [Post edited 7 Jan 2021 8:53]
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| Serious answers only please on 08:52 - Jan 7 with 1886 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Serious answers only please on 22:45 - Jan 6 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Yes. Talking and listening is good. People should be able to debate views in the right way and the right context but that includes listening properly to evidence.
I think Biden truly believes this too. He is no mug but wants to bring some sense of unity. A very different type of President to Trump, thankfully. |
"that includes listening properly to evidence"
Therein lies the problem. |  |
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| Serious answers only please on 10:52 - Jan 7 with 1779 views | Guthrum |
| Serious answers only please on 08:51 - Jan 7 by DanTheMan |
You can counter with as many facts as you like, they just don't listen. It's not really their fault, it's just how humans work.
And now it's much easier to shun those facts and get a catered world view through one of many social media sites. [Post edited 7 Jan 2021 8:53]
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They're not looking for facts, but for solutions to the things which are making them hurt - economic pressure, social dislocation, feelings of disenfranchisement.
The biggest problem with a facts-based, rational approach is that you can't offer those solutions. Mostly because they are very difficult (or impossible), expensive and require a lot of time/work. Someone whose best hope, since the mines closed, is a minimum wage job in a warehouse shipping nice stuff for the well-off understandably does not have the resources to put in* and lacks patience.
It is possible to present things as a project, to get these people on board and involved. But you have to be seen to be delivering, rather than mouthing platitudes and keep on letting the divides increase. Also, you face stiff competition from manipulators seeking to vampirically suck their energy for their own ends, promising things they have no intention of making good on.
* To move location or for self-improvement. | |
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| Serious answers only please on 10:59 - Jan 7 with 1762 views | CrayonKing |
| Serious answers only please on 07:31 - Jan 7 by GlasgowBlue |
Yes. Decades of failure to listen and engage with people has resulted in the election of Trump and Brexit.
As I used to say about [redacted] on here; engage with him. Point out why he is wrong and calmly produce the evidence to counter his beliefs.
Calling people names and belittling their perceptions leads to them feeling disenfranchised and easy pickings for the likes of Trump, Farage, Tommy Robinson etc etc. |
This article is about anti-vaxxers, but the principles are the same when it comes to any entrenched position. The stuff about the backfire effect Is particularly important.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/26/heres-how-to-tackle-the-co
(not trying to start a vaccine argument btw!)
People don't reach an irrational position because they've weighed up all the evidence, so presenting more evidence (to start with at least) is of limited use. You can't reason somebody out of a position they weren't reasoned into, as the saying goes.
Likewise, as you say, belittling them is even more counter-productive! People are more likely to listen to people that they like, so pithy put-downs and the usual pile-ons are totally counter-productive.
For the most part, winning these people over is about soft skills and psychology, and that means engaging with them in the right way.
Just to clarify: this is for the not-completely-lost people. Nobody is winning round a nazi terrorist any time soon, but there are plenty of people who aren't that far gone who can be won round with the right techniques. Or at the very least not pushed further into the hands of the bad guys. |  | | |
| Serious answers only please on 11:12 - Jan 7 with 1733 views | BlueLikeJazz |
| Serious answers only please on 07:31 - Jan 7 by GlasgowBlue |
Yes. Decades of failure to listen and engage with people has resulted in the election of Trump and Brexit.
As I used to say about [redacted] on here; engage with him. Point out why he is wrong and calmly produce the evidence to counter his beliefs.
Calling people names and belittling their perceptions leads to them feeling disenfranchised and easy pickings for the likes of Trump, Farage, Tommy Robinson etc etc. |
"engage with him. Point out why he is wrong and calmly produce the evidence to counter his beliefs. "
I'm not sure being 'engaged with calmly' is really the way to deal with someone sh*twitted enough to be wearing a 'Camp Auschwitz' t-shirt. We had this argument 75 years ago, his side lost. [Post edited 7 Jan 2021 11:13]
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| Serious answers only please on 11:22 - Jan 7 with 1704 views | CrayonKing |
| Serious answers only please on 11:12 - Jan 7 by BlueLikeJazz |
"engage with him. Point out why he is wrong and calmly produce the evidence to counter his beliefs. "
I'm not sure being 'engaged with calmly' is really the way to deal with someone sh*twitted enough to be wearing a 'Camp Auschwitz' t-shirt. We had this argument 75 years ago, his side lost. [Post edited 7 Jan 2021 11:13]
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This is also a valid point. Someone like that is too far gone to bother with! | | | |
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