| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? 14:58 - Oct 13 with 1635 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
Having funked everything up, Kwarteng has tried to buy some time with another statement later this month. He could pick any day for it. So when does he go for?
31st October!
Halloween!
Cue tabloid front pages of him with blood on his hands, or surrounded by Scream masks or as "Benefits Slasher" or just good old "Nightmare on Downing Street" and him in Freddie Kreuger jumper and hat.
How brainless are the PM, Cabinet, Treasury senior staff and the strategists at Conservative HQ? |  | | |  |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:01 - Oct 13 with 1610 views | bluelagos |
"How brainless are the PM, Cabinet, Treasury senior staff and the strategists at Conservative HQ?"
A rhetorical question I presume? |  |
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| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:04 - Oct 13 with 1583 views | homer_123 |
I think 'optics' maybe the issue here...clearly they are drunk as skunks. |  |
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| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:06 - Oct 13 with 1577 views | bluelagos |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:04 - Oct 13 by homer_123 |
I think 'optics' maybe the issue here...clearly they are drunk as skunks. |
Nah, all the parties ended with the Sue Grey report. | |
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| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:07 - Oct 13 with 1576 views | Steve_M |
Yes, they really are crap at politics as well as everything else.
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| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:13 - Oct 13 with 1530 views | HARRY10 |
Aren't optics those things that drink is measured out in bars ? | | | |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:23 - Oct 13 with 1493 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:01 - Oct 13 by bluelagos |
"How brainless are the PM, Cabinet, Treasury senior staff and the strategists at Conservative HQ?"
A rhetorical question I presume? |
But for nobody, not one person, to say "You mean Halloween? No, Kwasi, not a good idea!"
There are some bright senior Civil Servants in the Treasury, surely? To be honest it's something that even the most junior press officer should have spotted!
Such basic stuff!
The Trick or Treat Budget
Get Out!
Sh It Chapter 2
A Nightmare Before Christmas
Predatories
I'm just gobsmacked that they couldn't even stop this open goal. | | | |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:25 - Oct 13 with 1479 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:13 - Oct 13 by HARRY10 |
Aren't optics those things that drink is measured out in bars ? |
Yes, and also a handy short word to mean "how things will look out in the real world to the average person".
It's PR jargon, but handy for a Thread Title with a character limit. | | | |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:27 - Oct 13 with 1477 views | bluelagos |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:23 - Oct 13 by ArnoldMoorhen |
But for nobody, not one person, to say "You mean Halloween? No, Kwasi, not a good idea!"
There are some bright senior Civil Servants in the Treasury, surely? To be honest it's something that even the most junior press officer should have spotted!
Such basic stuff!
The Trick or Treat Budget
Get Out!
Sh It Chapter 2
A Nightmare Before Christmas
Predatories
I'm just gobsmacked that they couldn't even stop this open goal. |
I sometimes wonder if the civil servants know full well something is ridiculous and opt to keep quiet.
"Just give them enough rope" was a phrase I sometimes heard in business when you were dealing with someone considered an idiot. | |
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| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:30 - Oct 13 with 1457 views | HARRY10 |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:25 - Oct 13 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Yes, and also a handy short word to mean "how things will look out in the real world to the average person".
It's PR jargon, but handy for a Thread Title with a character limit. |
rather defeats the object when it has to be spelt out
and I am not sure decisions are taken by the Treasury on the basis of how they will look | | | |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:43 - Oct 13 with 1436 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:30 - Oct 13 by HARRY10 |
rather defeats the object when it has to be spelt out
and I am not sure decisions are taken by the Treasury on the basis of how they will look |
It's used a fair bit in political commentary. Probably come into journalistic use since Cameron's days.
Re your second point: the decision is being taken by Kwarteng. But senior Civil Servants will give him advice about the ramifications of decisions, and The Treasury have always had a reputation of being very careful. | | | |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:55 - Oct 13 with 1406 views | Dubtractor |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:30 - Oct 13 by HARRY10 |
rather defeats the object when it has to be spelt out
and I am not sure decisions are taken by the Treasury on the basis of how they will look |
None of the rest of us needed the explanation Harry. Just saying. |  |
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| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:55 - Oct 13 with 1405 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:27 - Oct 13 by bluelagos |
I sometimes wonder if the civil servants know full well something is ridiculous and opt to keep quiet.
"Just give them enough rope" was a phrase I sometimes heard in business when you were dealing with someone considered an idiot. |
Surely. They must have known, and either:
a) been scared to say anything
Or
b) sniggered into their hands and said "Yes, Chancellor, great idea, Chancellor..." | | | |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 16:02 - Oct 13 with 1379 views | bluelagos |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:55 - Oct 13 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Surely. They must have known, and either:
a) been scared to say anything
Or
b) sniggered into their hands and said "Yes, Chancellor, great idea, Chancellor..." |
100%
When Patel went on her visit to Israel (and got sacked for it) - the reason she was fired is that the trip was not officially sanctioned - think she even did it in her own holiday time.
Now I simply don't believe her officials had no idea what was on the cards. A strong and committed bod would have pulled her aside and explained the implication of what she was planning and explained it was truly stupid and would lead to her losing her job.
That conversation presumably never took place. Why? One can only really conclude it was because they detested her so much they were happy to see her swing.
(I do know a couple of DFID staff who have privately confirmed she was detested by literally everyone in the department due to her bullying style and her policies) | |
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| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 16:07 - Oct 13 with 1366 views | homer_123 |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:55 - Oct 13 by Dubtractor |
None of the rest of us needed the explanation Harry. Just saying. |
Meow.... | |
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| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 16:26 - Oct 13 with 1323 views | Dubtractor |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 16:07 - Oct 13 by homer_123 |
Meow.... |
Tbh, Harry seems like a decent egg really, but is is often unnecessarily rude to people, so a little bluntness back never hurts. | |
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| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 18:07 - Oct 13 with 1270 views | factual_blue |
Yes. They're called Civil Servants. Proper Civil Servants. Not Special Advisors.
Sadly the current tory party only wants to listen to the spads, not the people who know what they're talking about. |  |
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| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 18:08 - Oct 13 with 1268 views | factual_blue |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:27 - Oct 13 by bluelagos |
I sometimes wonder if the civil servants know full well something is ridiculous and opt to keep quiet.
"Just give them enough rope" was a phrase I sometimes heard in business when you were dealing with someone considered an idiot. |
As I've said elsewhere, the tories don't want to listen to the Civil Servants, who are of course part of the anti-growth coalition. | |
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| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 18:25 - Oct 13 with 1213 views | Churchman |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 15:27 - Oct 13 by bluelagos |
I sometimes wonder if the civil servants know full well something is ridiculous and opt to keep quiet.
"Just give them enough rope" was a phrase I sometimes heard in business when you were dealing with someone considered an idiot. |
I don’t think it’s really like that. In the simplest terms government sets policy. Civil Servants implement it. Part of the CS role when a minister comes up with a bright idea is to work that idea up. To look at its impact in a variety of ways, it’s potential revenue generation, costs, timescales, risks etc and what might be needed to implement it.
People involved might include, for a crude example, specialists in whatever field the measure relates to, economists, IT (third party supplied usually) other Gov departments, press office, recruitment people, statisticians, project managers, accountants you name it. The measure might be worked by just a few people if secret/sensitive or a whole team. The work for a budget measure might not be completed in time and have to be carried over to the next. Presented with the information/options the Minister might just shelve the idea or give it the green light.
A primary reason for working up a measure before announcement is to not leave a Minister exposed and embarrassed in the HoC there and then or further down the line. The way in which policy has been implemented for years by the CS is totally non political. There are no CS blockers or people getting in the way. Nor are they just paper shufflers stealing a living. Just people doing what is often varied and complex work as well as they can, often with a high degree of skill.
If the tories think this work can be done on a fag packet and implemented without the work, maybe the last couple of weeks might make one or two question the assumption. But I doubt it. If they think this kind of work can be done quicker, cheaper and better by the private sector, good luck with that too. I happen to know the kind of daily rate the likes of PWC charge and it’s not £2.50 and a packet of twiglets |  | | |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 19:00 - Oct 13 with 1162 views | NthQldITFC |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 18:07 - Oct 13 by factual_blue |
Yes. They're called Civil Servants. Proper Civil Servants. Not Special Advisors.
Sadly the current tory party only wants to listen to the spads, not the people who know what they're talking about. |
How long have unelected advisers who are not trained, career civil servants been a thing? Was it Mandelson era or does it go back earlier than that? It's another thing that seems wrong to me, the ability to just parachute some arse in, who lacks relevant experience, but may well be a Malcolm Tucker style dominator who can effectively dictate the course of the country without any kind of mandate. |  |
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| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 20:17 - Oct 13 with 1089 views | factual_blue |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 19:00 - Oct 13 by NthQldITFC |
How long have unelected advisers who are not trained, career civil servants been a thing? Was it Mandelson era or does it go back earlier than that? It's another thing that seems wrong to me, the ability to just parachute some arse in, who lacks relevant experience, but may well be a Malcolm Tucker style dominator who can effectively dictate the course of the country without any kind of mandate. |
Harold Wilson had his so-called 'Kitchen Cabinet', and I'm sure many before then turned to others for advice, support etc. This would really all have started because Civil Servants are prevented from giving support on matters of party politics, and Ministers wanted to be able to talk to somebody in the loop about how a particular policy could be presented etc.
This would sometimes be taken to the nth degree. When mobile phones first started to become common, Permanent Secretaries had to advise Ministers they were only for government business. So the Defence Secretary could ring up the Chancellor to talk about the Comprehensive Spending Review, but not about when to hold the next General Election.
SPADs were/are an attempt to put some structure around it all. Not sure it's worked, particularly as boris clearly took no notice of those (or indeed any) rules. | |
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| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 20:24 - Oct 13 with 1047 views | Churchman |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 19:00 - Oct 13 by NthQldITFC |
How long have unelected advisers who are not trained, career civil servants been a thing? Was it Mandelson era or does it go back earlier than that? It's another thing that seems wrong to me, the ability to just parachute some arse in, who lacks relevant experience, but may well be a Malcolm Tucker style dominator who can effectively dictate the course of the country without any kind of mandate. |
Civil Servants are trained in all sorts of ways. Yes, there are clerical staff, including PAs, PSs etc, but I think the sheer variety of skills with the CS would surprise people who’ve not seen it up close. It did me.
A friend of mine is a marketing expert who was employed by the treasury. The lawyers employed are all fully and mega qualified, you have fully qualified accountants, qualified project managers, IT specialists, security experts, military in the MoD, qualified tax inspectors many with different specialisms, to name just a tiny few.
It’s actually fine to employ private sector people in the CS and as one that made that move, there are benefits to have both ways. I’ll say it again, CS people do not create policy. They implement it. None of them, not even the Head honchos of the departments.
Shame CS people can no longer talk to ministers. They have to go through Advisors now. These people may well influence policy. Many tend to be fresh out of Uni, fast tracking people looking for political careers. I never met one I had any time for. I’ve no idea if they even have to sign the official secrets act. If that tool Cummings is anything to go by I suspect not. [Post edited 13 Oct 2022 20:37]
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| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 20:30 - Oct 13 with 1027 views | factual_blue |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 20:24 - Oct 13 by Churchman |
Civil Servants are trained in all sorts of ways. Yes, there are clerical staff, including PAs, PSs etc, but I think the sheer variety of skills with the CS would surprise people who’ve not seen it up close. It did me.
A friend of mine is a marketing expert who was employed by the treasury. The lawyers employed are all fully and mega qualified, you have fully qualified accountants, qualified project managers, IT specialists, security experts, military in the MoD, qualified tax inspectors many with different specialisms, to name just a tiny few.
It’s actually fine to employ private sector people in the CS and as one that made that move, there are benefits to have both ways. I’ll say it again, CS people do not create policy. They implement it. None of them, not even the Head honchos of the departments.
Shame CS people can no longer talk to ministers. They have to go through Advisors now. These people may well influence policy. Many tend to be fresh out of Uni, fast tracking people looking for political careers. I never met one I had any time for. I’ve no idea if they even have to sign the official secrets act. If that tool Cummings is anything to go by I suspect not. [Post edited 13 Oct 2022 20:37]
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They wouldn't give a fig about obeying any law that didn't suit them.
(Addendum for those who might not be aware: 'signing the OSA' doesn't mean you have a choice about opting in. You don't. It's a law and as such applies to everybody. As a non Civil Servant you can break the OSA by, for example, receiving classified information. What you in fact sign is a piece of paper saying you've had your attention drawn to the provisions of the OSA as they pertain to Civil Servants.) [Post edited 13 Oct 2022 20:37]
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| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 20:38 - Oct 13 with 996 views | factual_blue |
| Is there nobody left in the Treasury with a clue about optics? on 16:26 - Oct 13 by Dubtractor |
Tbh, Harry seems like a decent egg really, but is is often unnecessarily rude to people, so a little bluntness back never hurts. |
balls | |
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