| A savage demolition of austerity 08:49 - Dec 29 with 3081 views | DJR |
The following Twitter thread from John Burn-Murdoch of the FT is fascinating. It includes graphs which compare us (unfavourably) to peer countries on many different measures, and which highlight the differences between the situation under the Tories and Labour.
It finishes
"In conclusion, Cameron and Osborne are lucky to have escaped the fate of Truss and Kwarteng.
Like Trussonomics, austerity was ideology-over-evidence. Unlike Trussonomics, it was not quickly reversed, and so has gone on to cause enormous, lasting damage."
The need for austerity was rammed down our throats at the time, and organisations like the BBC were cheerleaders. Dissenting voices were not really given any space, and it brought to mind the words of George Orwell.
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed that all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to say this, that or the other, but it is ‘not done’ to say it ..... Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with surprising effectiveness. A genuinely unfashionable opinion is almost never given a fair hearing, either in the popular press or in the highbrow periodicals."
Labour was pretty weak on this at the time (austerity-lite), and it was only with Corbyn that the case against austerity began to be made and won.
I was a civil servant at the time the Tories came to power, and I remember challenging (without success) our Permanent Secretary in a meeting when he said there was no alternative to staff cuts.
EDIT: For those of you not used to Twitter, if you click on "Read the whole conversation on Twitter" you will be able to see the whole thread. [Post edited 29 Dec 2022 9:05]
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| A savage demolition of austerity on 09:13 - Dec 29 with 2682 views | chicoazul |
“Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with surprising effectiveness.”
Don’t they just. |  |
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| A savage demolition of austerity on 09:21 - Dec 29 with 2642 views | GeoffSentence |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 09:13 - Dec 29 by chicoazul |
“Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with surprising effectiveness.”
Don’t they just. |
What rubbish. STFU. |  |
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| A savage demolition of austerity on 09:40 - Dec 29 with 2581 views | lowhouseblue |
just how severe was austerity?
an example of severe cuts to public spending was thatcher who cut public spending from 43% to 34%. that's very aggressive austerity in terms of public sending.
prior to the credit crisis in 2009 public spending under labour peaked at 40%. in 2017/18, prior to covid and post cameron / osborne, it was still 39.6%.
measuring spending as a % of gdp from the peak post credit crisis is misleading. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| A savage demolition of austerity on 09:47 - Dec 29 with 2530 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 09:40 - Dec 29 by lowhouseblue |
just how severe was austerity?
an example of severe cuts to public spending was thatcher who cut public spending from 43% to 34%. that's very aggressive austerity in terms of public sending.
prior to the credit crisis in 2009 public spending under labour peaked at 40%. in 2017/18, prior to covid and post cameron / osborne, it was still 39.6%.
measuring spending as a % of gdp from the peak post credit crisis is misleading. |
I guess it maybe depends how wealthy you are whether you notice it or not. |  |
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| A savage demolition of austerity on 10:00 - Dec 29 with 2494 views | DJR |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 09:40 - Dec 29 by lowhouseblue |
just how severe was austerity?
an example of severe cuts to public spending was thatcher who cut public spending from 43% to 34%. that's very aggressive austerity in terms of public sending.
prior to the credit crisis in 2009 public spending under labour peaked at 40%. in 2017/18, prior to covid and post cameron / osborne, it was still 39.6%.
measuring spending as a % of gdp from the peak post credit crisis is misleading. |
Have you actually looked at the graphs, and compared the UK's performance to peer countries, to show just how severe austerity was? | | | |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 10:04 - Dec 29 with 2472 views | Dubtractor |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 09:40 - Dec 29 by lowhouseblue |
just how severe was austerity?
an example of severe cuts to public spending was thatcher who cut public spending from 43% to 34%. that's very aggressive austerity in terms of public sending.
prior to the credit crisis in 2009 public spending under labour peaked at 40%. in 2017/18, prior to covid and post cameron / osborne, it was still 39.6%.
measuring spending as a % of gdp from the peak post credit crisis is misleading. |
Speaking as someone who works in the public sector, and have seen the cuts to jobs and services all around me, I'd say that austerity was very severe. |  |
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| A savage demolition of austerity on 10:07 - Dec 29 with 2450 views | DJR |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 10:04 - Dec 29 by Dubtractor |
Speaking as someone who works in the public sector, and have seen the cuts to jobs and services all around me, I'd say that austerity was very severe. |
And speaking as someone who worked in the civil service in the 1980s, there was nothing like the cuts to jobs and pay then. | | | |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 10:09 - Dec 29 with 2441 views | lowhouseblue |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 10:00 - Dec 29 by DJR |
Have you actually looked at the graphs, and compared the UK's performance to peer countries, to show just how severe austerity was? |
yes and i'm quoting data from the graphs. the original data is also here:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/298478/public-sector-expenditure-as-share-of
did you know that the % of GDP the government spent on health was 6.5% under labour pre-credit crisis and 7.5% after 'austerity' and pre-covid?
essentially the tories have maintained expenditure where it was after 10 years of labour, with a bias to growth in health. the story is therefore much more nuanced than the original article implies. that doesn't imply that more spending isn't needed, but austerity doesn't fully describe what has gone on. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| A savage demolition of austerity on 10:18 - Dec 29 with 2411 views | DJR |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 10:09 - Dec 29 by lowhouseblue |
yes and i'm quoting data from the graphs. the original data is also here:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/298478/public-sector-expenditure-as-share-of
did you know that the % of GDP the government spent on health was 6.5% under labour pre-credit crisis and 7.5% after 'austerity' and pre-covid?
essentially the tories have maintained expenditure where it was after 10 years of labour, with a bias to growth in health. the story is therefore much more nuanced than the original article implies. that doesn't imply that more spending isn't needed, but austerity doesn't fully describe what has gone on. |
You do realise, of course, that GDP growth has been stunted since 2010 due to austerity, with the inevitable result that public expenditure forms a higher percentage of it than would be the case if growth was greater. And the spike in spending in 20/21 is due to Covid and has been funded by borrowing.
Anyway if you're happy with the state of public services, and that real wages are lower than the mid-2000s, so be it. [Post edited 29 Dec 2022 10:26]
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| A savage demolition of austerity on 10:43 - Dec 29 with 2345 views | lowhouseblue |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 10:18 - Dec 29 by DJR |
You do realise, of course, that GDP growth has been stunted since 2010 due to austerity, with the inevitable result that public expenditure forms a higher percentage of it than would be the case if growth was greater. And the spike in spending in 20/21 is due to Covid and has been funded by borrowing.
Anyway if you're happy with the state of public services, and that real wages are lower than the mid-2000s, so be it. [Post edited 29 Dec 2022 10:26]
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perhaps you could quote the bit where i said i was happy with it all.
yes, a major part of the real problem is the very slow growth in gdp and productivity. lack of public investment is an element in that story, but it's a different story from austerity and at an economy wide level austerity has been limited.
opposing the tories doesn't mean that critical analysis has to be suspended. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| A savage demolition of austerity on 10:51 - Dec 29 with 2331 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
I’ve always been an advocate of govt capital spending - you just have to see how the US catapulted away in terms of economic growth post lockdown with Biden’s infrastructure spending. Appreciate there were other drivers (low regulation, over inflated equity markets etc but the contrast with sluggish recoveries in the UK and EU is evident.
However, balance does need to be struck -it’s nonsense that a country’s budget doesn’t need to be managed like a household income. We’ve seen what happens if the bond and Gilt Markets react if they don’t think a country can repay its debt or the fiscal plans are not viable *cough Truss*. Furthermore with reckless spending it’s quite viable to go the way of Greece or Argentina route and end up bankrupt and a slave to the IMF (Bankster will like that one).
Balance and credibility is the key… |  | | |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 10:52 - Dec 29 with 2330 views | DJR |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 10:43 - Dec 29 by lowhouseblue |
perhaps you could quote the bit where i said i was happy with it all.
yes, a major part of the real problem is the very slow growth in gdp and productivity. lack of public investment is an element in that story, but it's a different story from austerity and at an economy wide level austerity has been limited.
opposing the tories doesn't mean that critical analysis has to be suspended. |
Sorry, I didn't mean to cast aspersions. But I would still argue that austerity lies at the root of most of our problems, compounded of course by the trade barriers of Brexit. | | | |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 11:03 - Dec 29 with 2294 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 10:51 - Dec 29 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
I’ve always been an advocate of govt capital spending - you just have to see how the US catapulted away in terms of economic growth post lockdown with Biden’s infrastructure spending. Appreciate there were other drivers (low regulation, over inflated equity markets etc but the contrast with sluggish recoveries in the UK and EU is evident.
However, balance does need to be struck -it’s nonsense that a country’s budget doesn’t need to be managed like a household income. We’ve seen what happens if the bond and Gilt Markets react if they don’t think a country can repay its debt or the fiscal plans are not viable *cough Truss*. Furthermore with reckless spending it’s quite viable to go the way of Greece or Argentina route and end up bankrupt and a slave to the IMF (Bankster will like that one).
Balance and credibility is the key… |
When financial institutions cook the books to load nations with debt it seems fair that those institutions should bare the responsibility and cost rather than the populous.
https://voxeurop.eu/en/goldman-helped-greece-cook-books/
Edit...
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/goldmans-greek-gambit/ [Post edited 29 Dec 2022 11:10]
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| A savage demolition of austerity on 11:10 - Dec 29 with 2244 views | J2BLUE |
The Tories cost me a good job years ago withdrawing funding. I was happy there and making good progress.
F##k them. |  |
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| A savage demolition of austerity on 11:14 - Dec 29 with 2219 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
GS didn’t load Greece with debt they helped conceal it. A wrong of course, but not the wrong that you are implying. The corrupt government loaded them with debt and waved through cooking the books. | | | |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 11:21 - Dec 29 with 2194 views | Darth_Koont |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 10:51 - Dec 29 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
I’ve always been an advocate of govt capital spending - you just have to see how the US catapulted away in terms of economic growth post lockdown with Biden’s infrastructure spending. Appreciate there were other drivers (low regulation, over inflated equity markets etc but the contrast with sluggish recoveries in the UK and EU is evident.
However, balance does need to be struck -it’s nonsense that a country’s budget doesn’t need to be managed like a household income. We’ve seen what happens if the bond and Gilt Markets react if they don’t think a country can repay its debt or the fiscal plans are not viable *cough Truss*. Furthermore with reckless spending it’s quite viable to go the way of Greece or Argentina route and end up bankrupt and a slave to the IMF (Bankster will like that one).
Balance and credibility is the key… |
I agree with this overall. Our problem in the UK over the last 15 years is that we have massively extended our national debt without particularly investing in the economy or society.
The question is why? A narrow market-based and privatised consensus among the political and media class, self-interested handouts to backers and donors or a deeper ideological plan to effectively bankrupt the state and hollow out its services so its role becomes even smaller? All of the above?
But a sh!tty way to run an economy over the long term and democratically represent an entire society’s needs. |  |
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| A savage demolition of austerity on 11:23 - Dec 29 with 2161 views | GlasgowBlue |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 09:40 - Dec 29 by lowhouseblue |
just how severe was austerity?
an example of severe cuts to public spending was thatcher who cut public spending from 43% to 34%. that's very aggressive austerity in terms of public sending.
prior to the credit crisis in 2009 public spending under labour peaked at 40%. in 2017/18, prior to covid and post cameron / osborne, it was still 39.6%.
measuring spending as a % of gdp from the peak post credit crisis is misleading. |
Also, Denis Healey cut more in one year than George Osborne was been able to do in nine years.
Source: FT
I'd say that Osborne's biggest failing was to ring fence certain services, therefore making far more scathing cuts to other departments.
[Post edited 29 Dec 2022 11:27]
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| A savage demolition of austerity on 11:25 - Dec 29 with 2151 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 11:21 - Dec 29 by Darth_Koont |
I agree with this overall. Our problem in the UK over the last 15 years is that we have massively extended our national debt without particularly investing in the economy or society.
The question is why? A narrow market-based and privatised consensus among the political and media class, self-interested handouts to backers and donors or a deeper ideological plan to effectively bankrupt the state and hollow out its services so its role becomes even smaller? All of the above?
But a sh!tty way to run an economy over the long term and democratically represent an entire society’s needs. |
Totally agree - and to add to your list of “why”, a curious ideological commitment to privatising profits and nationalising losses.. | | | |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 11:32 - Dec 29 with 2106 views | Darth_Koont |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 11:25 - Dec 29 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Totally agree - and to add to your list of “why”, a curious ideological commitment to privatising profits and nationalising losses.. |
Indeed.
It’s a total stitch up to privatise profits and socialise/nationalise costs. But suits an increasingly head-in-the-sand status quo and its political/media wing down to the ground. Far too many of them are busy defending their own interests and personal wealth nowadays at the cost of the rest of the population. | |
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| A savage demolition of austerity on 11:49 - Dec 29 with 1941 views | Plums |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 09:40 - Dec 29 by lowhouseblue |
just how severe was austerity?
an example of severe cuts to public spending was thatcher who cut public spending from 43% to 34%. that's very aggressive austerity in terms of public sending.
prior to the credit crisis in 2009 public spending under labour peaked at 40%. in 2017/18, prior to covid and post cameron / osborne, it was still 39.6%.
measuring spending as a % of gdp from the peak post credit crisis is misleading. |
Just look at the number of people with mental illness you see living on the streets. That's a direct result of government austerity policies. Social care has been destroyed and charities are attempting to plug the gaps.
I challenge any Tory voter to provide ONE example of a major improvement in Britain in the past 12 years. I've tried but can't see it. |  |
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| A savage demolition of austerity on 11:54 - Dec 29 with 1909 views | lowhouseblue |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 11:23 - Dec 29 by GlasgowBlue |
Also, Denis Healey cut more in one year than George Osborne was been able to do in nine years.
Source: FT
I'd say that Osborne's biggest failing was to ring fence certain services, therefore making far more scathing cuts to other departments.
[Post edited 29 Dec 2022 11:27]
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in the end truss was right - though then her answer was of course completely wrong. the tories have mismanaged the economy over more than a decade by failing to tackle productivity and growth and pretending its nothing to do with government. to the point where those things in themselves are at the heart of every other crisis. the loosest money in history hasn't led to investment - what is known as pushing on a string. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| A savage demolition of austerity on 11:58 - Dec 29 with 1880 views | DJR |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 11:23 - Dec 29 by GlasgowBlue |
Also, Denis Healey cut more in one year than George Osborne was been able to do in nine years.
Source: FT
I'd say that Osborne's biggest failing was to ring fence certain services, therefore making far more scathing cuts to other departments.
[Post edited 29 Dec 2022 11:27]
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The public services were in a much better state in Healey's time, and the population was relatively stable. You also have to see Osborne's cuts in the context of an ageing and rapidly growing population, which meant that, say, below average real term increases in NHS spending were not sufficient.
Are you saying that ring-fenced services like the NHS are in rude health? In any event, austerity meant that there was no alternative to ring-fencing. [Post edited 29 Dec 2022 12:03]
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| A savage demolition of austerity on 11:59 - Dec 29 with 1860 views | DJR |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 11:49 - Dec 29 by Plums |
Just look at the number of people with mental illness you see living on the streets. That's a direct result of government austerity policies. Social care has been destroyed and charities are attempting to plug the gaps.
I challenge any Tory voter to provide ONE example of a major improvement in Britain in the past 12 years. I've tried but can't see it. |
Hear, hear. And let's not let the Orange Book Lib Dems off the hook for their role during the coalition government. [Post edited 29 Dec 2022 12:04]
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| A savage demolition of austerity on 14:02 - Dec 29 with 1667 views | Guthrum |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 11:49 - Dec 29 by Plums |
Just look at the number of people with mental illness you see living on the streets. That's a direct result of government austerity policies. Social care has been destroyed and charities are attempting to plug the gaps.
I challenge any Tory voter to provide ONE example of a major improvement in Britain in the past 12 years. I've tried but can't see it. |
Altho that is a process which has been going on since the 1990s. A 90% decrease in beds available for mental health cases, for example. |  |
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| A savage demolition of austerity on 15:58 - Dec 29 with 1531 views | DJR |
| A savage demolition of austerity on 14:02 - Dec 29 by Guthrum |
Altho that is a process which has been going on since the 1990s. A 90% decrease in beds available for mental health cases, for example. |
The theory with closing mental health beds was that there would be care in the community but such care is very easy to cut when savings have to be made because there are no obvious victims, unlike say a person who has had an accident. | | | |
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