| The decline of the West. 08:53 - Apr 5 with 1391 views | NthQldITFC |
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/05/decline-of-the-west-causes
'You may well be familiar with chatter about “the decline of the west”: it has tended to be the preserve of the reactionary right, who blame, variously, moral decay, multiculturalism and a reassessment of European history for our downfall. But it is not minority rights, diversity or acknowledgment of western crimes to blame. The turnaround in our collective fortunes has been dramatic. But it is driven by an economic system that promised personal freedom but instead delivered insecurity on a mass scale, and which has has hurt us in every conceivable way, from our emotional and physical wellbeing to our material circumstances.
Why on earth do we still believe that the free market produces widespread prosperity, let alone that it doesn't inevitably spell doom in an essentially finite system.
Clinging on to free market capitalism is akin to clinging onto some nutty religious dogma in the face of overwhelming evidence. |  |
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| The decline of the West. on 09:02 - Apr 5 with 1318 views | Guthrum |
I disagree. It's more like persisting with some sort of lucrative scam in order to wring every last penny out before it collapses. |  |
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| The decline of the West. on 09:09 - Apr 5 with 1298 views | NthQldITFC |
| The decline of the West. on 09:02 - Apr 5 by Guthrum |
I disagree. It's more like persisting with some sort of lucrative scam in order to wring every last penny out before it collapses. |
So wilful, rather than self-deluding then. That's probably more accurate I suppose. But are we aware of the scale of the consequences? | |
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| The decline of the West. on 09:11 - Apr 5 with 1294 views | tonybied |
Probably because those in power, and with the opportunity to do something about it gain from the system so have no want to change it. |  | | |
| The decline of the West. on 09:31 - Apr 5 with 1255 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
Largely agree with the sentiment, but then where do we look for inspiration. Whatever deep rooted problems we face, the West by and large still offers the greatest freedoms and standard of living when you take a global view.
That’s not to say we can’t do better, but a somewhat insular view (no surprise given the author) which doesn’t take into account the aspirations of people to move to the west or adopt western systems. Central and Eastern Europe for example have improved living standards massively since joining the EU. |  | | |
| The decline of the West. on 09:34 - Apr 5 with 1249 views | Guthrum |
| The decline of the West. on 09:09 - Apr 5 by NthQldITFC |
So wilful, rather than self-deluding then. That's probably more accurate I suppose. But are we aware of the scale of the consequences? |
I think the perpetrators don't really care, as they believe money wil shield them from any adverse consequences. And they've mostly been correct, so far. Collapsing the ecosystem may give the lie to that, but presumably they expect to be long dead before it comes to fruition.
Unfortunately, the champions and beneficiaries of the unregulated free market also control much of the media (having the money to buy it up) and thus also the political structures in many countries (through "donations" and swaying public opinion).
It is true that material comfort and prosperity has increased greatly for the majority in the Western world over the last few decades. Thus many are prepared to play along with the routine (tho few have devloped the outright worship of wealth which pervades US culture). Not so much dupes, as those hoping to pick up the crumbs and willing to turn a blind eye to the excesses. | |
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| The decline of the West. on 09:39 - Apr 5 with 1234 views | Guthrum |
| The decline of the West. on 09:31 - Apr 5 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Largely agree with the sentiment, but then where do we look for inspiration. Whatever deep rooted problems we face, the West by and large still offers the greatest freedoms and standard of living when you take a global view.
That’s not to say we can’t do better, but a somewhat insular view (no surprise given the author) which doesn’t take into account the aspirations of people to move to the west or adopt western systems. Central and Eastern Europe for example have improved living standards massively since joining the EU. |
However, we have also made a rod for our own backs, feeding that prosperity by pouring our wealth into oppressive regimes elsewhere - the Middle East and Russia (oil/gas), China (cheap manufactured goods), Africa (raw materials) - which in turn promotes the flow of people from those areas of comparative poverty and lack of freedom. | |
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| The decline of the West. on 09:47 - Apr 5 with 1212 views | WeWereZombies |
Is the 'West' (and does that include Japan, New Zealand and Australia ?) in decline ? Or is it that the West is as prosperous as ever but that the 'East' (and does that include Russia, Turkey, Brazil and South Africa ?) is rising ? These artificial divisions cause confusion, especially when you talk to people from the United States and Canada who look at things in terms of the well off Global North and the impoverished Global South.
Don't get me started on decent living pastoralists and decadent urbanites... |  |
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| The decline of the West. on 10:07 - Apr 5 with 1191 views | blueasfook |
I stopped reading at "Owen Jones". Silly little Marxist. |  |
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| The decline of the West. on 10:12 - Apr 5 with 1172 views | leitrimblue |
| The decline of the West. on 10:07 - Apr 5 by blueasfook |
I stopped reading at "Owen Jones". Silly little Marxist. |
We're the rest of the words in the article to big for you? |  | | |
| The decline of the West. on 10:13 - Apr 5 with 1161 views | BlueBadger |
| The decline of the West. on 10:07 - Apr 5 by blueasfook |
I stopped reading at "Owen Jones". Silly little Marxist. |
Reading stuff is hard, eh? |  |
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| The decline of the West. on 10:16 - Apr 5 with 1156 views | NthQldITFC |
| The decline of the West. on 09:31 - Apr 5 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Largely agree with the sentiment, but then where do we look for inspiration. Whatever deep rooted problems we face, the West by and large still offers the greatest freedoms and standard of living when you take a global view.
That’s not to say we can’t do better, but a somewhat insular view (no surprise given the author) which doesn’t take into account the aspirations of people to move to the west or adopt western systems. Central and Eastern Europe for example have improved living standards massively since joining the EU. |
For me the metric of improving living standards (against what values?) now, without looking at the cost in the near future, is really dangerous. It may seem the 'right' thing to do to give everybody a much better life now (measured in financial terms), but if that means we're stealing the future from our children, then we have to say "OK, we don't need everything we have now, and neither does everybody else in the world need to gain everything we have now, we need to have a fair and equitable and hopefully sustainable non-growth-based worldwide system based on happiness and health for humans and the environment... or we're all dead." | |
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| The decline of the West. on 11:02 - Apr 5 with 1091 views | BondiBlue |
Don't disagree with much of that. Very light on solutions though. Can see why some are triggered by this sort of opinion piece.
Also, at the end of the day, if the alternative is russia or china, give me the rotten west all day long. | |
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| The decline of the West. on 11:04 - Apr 5 with 1084 views | blueasfook |
| The decline of the West. on 10:12 - Apr 5 by leitrimblue |
We're the rest of the words in the article to big for you? |
*were | |
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| The decline of the West. on 11:05 - Apr 5 with 1067 views | leitrimblue |
| The decline of the West. on 11:04 - Apr 5 by blueasfook |
*were |
Thanks | | | |
| The decline of the West. on 15:52 - Apr 5 with 887 views | HARRY10 |
| The decline of the West. on 10:07 - Apr 5 by blueasfook |
I stopped reading at "Owen Jones". Silly little Marxist. |
What part of Owen Jones's thoughts equates to what you have read of Marx ? | | | |
| The decline of the West. on 16:58 - Apr 5 with 846 views | J2BLUE |
Nothing is going to change while the 99% continue as we are. While the serfs do not revolt there is no need to change anything.
The problem is some people end up a few rungs up the ladder and then get told the peoplee on the lower rungs want to take what they have got so they viciously defend it by voting Tory. Obviously not true in every case but it is in many. They are still part of the 99% but don't want to gamble with how things are in case they fall back down the ladder.
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| The decline of the West. on 12:55 - Apr 6 with 649 views | Buhrer |
| The decline of the West. on 10:07 - Apr 5 by blueasfook |
I stopped reading at "Owen Jones". Silly little Marxist. |
One of those Marxist Genders wot the Sun haz warned us about? I fink hes silly, but not silly enough to vote for Brexit eh. |  | | |
| The decline of the West. on 13:12 - Apr 6 with 611 views | NthQldITFC |
| The decline of the West. on 16:58 - Apr 5 by J2BLUE |
Nothing is going to change while the 99% continue as we are. While the serfs do not revolt there is no need to change anything.
The problem is some people end up a few rungs up the ladder and then get told the peoplee on the lower rungs want to take what they have got so they viciously defend it by voting Tory. Obviously not true in every case but it is in many. They are still part of the 99% but don't want to gamble with how things are in case they fall back down the ladder.
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Hmm, the fella with big pile of cookies looks like Rupert Mordor for some reason, and he also looks like he is someone that David Vincent might be interested in investigating, if you know what I mean. | |
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