Forum | SNP by Samuelowen88

Who would you rather see lose their job?

SNP on 11:55 - Apr 5 by BlueBadger
Personally, I can't believe that a movement based around fantasy economics and hollow nationalism would contain frauds and criminals.

“Fantasy economics”?

You need to tell the Danes they’re living a lie.

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SNP on 12:43 - Apr 5 with 2669 views

Wacko

SNP on 12:33 - Apr 5 by Darth_Koont
“Fantasy economics”? You need to tell the Danes they’re living a lie.

It’s totally bizarre how people who worship the cult of London / UK dismiss all alternative economic models as “fantasy” or “extreme”. Speaking as someone who lived in Denmark for a number of years

Poll:

SNP on 12:43 - Apr 5 with 2656 views

GlasgowBlue

SNP on 11:55 - Apr 5 by BlueBadger
Personally, I can't believe that a movement based around fantasy economics and hollow nationalism would contain frauds and criminals.

I'm sure Nicola's defence will be that she has no recollection of every marrying Peter Murrell.

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SNP on 12:45 - Apr 5 with 2653 views

Who would you rather see lose their job?

SNP on 12:43 - Apr 5 by Wacko
It’s totally bizarre how people who worship the cult of London / UK dismiss all alternative economic models as “fantasy” or “extreme”. Speaking as someone who lived in Denmark for a number of years

Denmark are in the EU. If Scotland goes for independence they will not be members of any significant trading bloc.

SNP on 12:50 - Apr 5 with 2618 views

GlasgowBlue

SNP on 12:33 - Apr 5 by Darth_Koont
“Fantasy economics”? You need to tell the Danes they’re living a lie.

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SNP on 13:25 - Apr 5 with 2551 views

Wacko

SNP on 12:45 - Apr 5 by SuperKieranMcKenna
Denmark are in the EU. If Scotland goes for independence they will not be members of any significant trading bloc.

There are other similar countries that aren't in the EU that Scotland could emulate. Interesting article here:

https://www.investmentmonitor.ai/features/blueprint-scotland-independence-yugosl

Poll:

SNP on 13:38 - Apr 5 with 2498 views

giant_stow

SNP on 12:43 - Apr 5 by Wacko
It’s totally bizarre how people who worship the cult of London / UK dismiss all alternative economic models as “fantasy” or “extreme”. Speaking as someone who lived in Denmark for a number of years

I've always took the fantasy to be in the transition away from the union - things such as currency, national debt, being a modern high welfare state vs following the Irish low-tax model, the position in or out of the EU and how that would sit with brexit Britain, or whether they want Scotland to continue being a oil producer or more 'green'.... Nothing's ever resolved - it's always ya-ya-ed down the line to be thought about later.

[Post edited 5 Apr 2023 13:40]

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SNP on 13:49 - Apr 5 with 2411 views

SNP on 13:25 - Apr 5 by Wacko
There are other similar countries that aren't in the EU that Scotland could emulate. Interesting article here: https://www.investmentmonitor.ai/features/blueprint-scotland-independence-yugosl

The other countries in that article are members of EFTA, which of course Scotland would have to negotiate access to. It’s likely that Scotland would have to do this post independence due to border and customs issues with England, and therefore face a period of trade barriers.

SNP on 13:58 - Apr 5 with 2348 views

SNP on 13:38 - Apr 5 by giant_stow

[Post edited 5 Apr 2023 13:40]

It was peddled with the same cynical spin as Brexit.

Nothing that might be remotely thought of as a working hypothesis. It where the brexiters actually got the fingers in the ear 'project fear' bleat

Similarly all grievances would be dealt with. Shipyards would reopen, as would car plants and other heavy industries, as Scotland took control.

Nothing was too fanciful to believe, but nothing was ever explained either.

The difference I believe was in the intent. Brexut was one huge lie to allow for wage, working conditions and environmental standards to be cut. Whereas in Scotland the opposite seems to be the case, with the purpose of raising standards.

However well intended, the law still stands and it will have to be seen whether the SNP broke the law.

[Post edited 5 Apr 2023 15:08]

SNP on 15:02 - Apr 5 with 2226 views

SNP on 12:50 - Apr 5 by GlasgowBlue

Scotland’s underlying fiscal position and economy are very weak – and an anomaly in Northwestern Europe. Apart from Northern Ireland and Wales….

That’s exactly why independence is a must. There is no upside nor future in the Union in real terms.

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SNP on 15:12 - Apr 5 with 2168 views

SNP on 15:02 - Apr 5 by Darth_Koont
Scotland’s underlying fiscal position and economy are very weak – and an anomaly in Northwestern Europe. Apart from Northern Ireland and Wales…. That’s exactly why independence is a must. There is no upside nor future in the Union in real terms.

Greater autonomy yes.

Independence is the la la land of Braveheart, Buckfast and deepfried idiocy

SNP on 15:34 - Apr 5 with 2125 views

SNP on 15:02 - Apr 5 by Darth_Koont
Scotland’s underlying fiscal position and economy are very weak – and an anomaly in Northwestern Europe. Apart from Northern Ireland and Wales…. That’s exactly why independence is a must. There is no upside nor future in the Union in real terms.

They already have control of health (with worse waiting times than England by several metrics) and education - the fundamentals by which to provide a decent workforce. They receive more tax payer funding per capita than England. Personally I think it’s time for them to go it alone.

If the referendum vote says ‘yes’ the SNP can deal with the fallout and ensuing flight of FDI as seen after the Brexit vote.

SNP on 18:22 - Apr 5 with 2016 views

factual_blue

SNP on 12:33 - Apr 5 by Darth_Koont
“Fantasy economics”? You need to tell the Danes they’re living a lie.

Scotland, I suspect, lacks the strong foundations for a strong Danish style economy.

Let's not forget the Scots love a bit of cheeky economic fantasy: that's why they had to give up their independence in the early 18th century. They'd spaffed all their money on the Darien Scheme.

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SNP on 19:26 - Apr 5 with 1947 views

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SNP on 18:22 - Apr 5 by factual_blue
Scotland, I suspect, lacks the strong foundations for a strong Danish style economy. Let's not forget the Scots love a bit of cheeky economic fantasy: that's why they had to give up their independence in the early 18th century. They'd spaffed all their money on the Darien Scheme.

Things are obviously less easy now, particularly after Brexit and with oil less important and less climate friendly, but let's not forget the McCrone report. This from Wikipedia.

"The McCrone report is a document on the Scottish economy written and researched in 1974 on behalf of the British Government. It was composed by Professor Gavin McCrone employed at the Scottish Office using some information that was publicly available at the time and some that was not. The document gave a favourable projection for the economy of an independent Scotland with a "chronic surplus to a quite embarrassing degree and its currency would become the hardest in Europe". It also noted that the Common Market or EEC meant that Scotland could pivot away from the rest of UK (if required) for trade. The memo from UK Civil Servants to UK Government ministers was classified “secret”; some have argued that this was to avoid fuelling independence sentiment in Scotland. The report became public in 2005 when new freedom of information legislation came into effect."

Also from Wikipedia.

"In an interview for Holyrood Magazine on 19 May 2013, ex-Labour chancellor Denis Healey (who served in the Cabinet at the time the McCrone Report was submitted) stated: "I think we did underplay the value of the oil to the country because of the threat of [Scottish] nationalism... I think they [Westminster politicians] are concerned about Scotland taking the oil, I think they are worried stiff about it."

Much of the oil and gas revenues were spaffed away on propping up the UK economy, although there has been a bit of a rebound in the last year, but Scotland is still very rich in climate friendly energy resources, such as wind, which could be the basis of a strong economy.

[Post edited 5 Apr 2023 19:34]

SNP on 19:52 - Apr 5 with 1885 views

An economy that would see 60% of it's trade (with the UK) hamstrung by the same regulation the UKs exit from the EU has imposed.

There is no understanding of what currency it would use. If it was sterling then it would be government by interest rates set by the BOE. it would then have to take on its share of the national debt ie £180bn, again having to rely on the BofE, as guarantor.

Scotland would lose its say in the UN, Nato and other global organisations, as from being part of an economy of 65 m it would drop down to 5m. That is one of the reasons smaller European countries have benefitted from being in the EU. Part of the biggest gang in town, so to speak.

Scitland just needs greater autonomy as do Wales and NI.

SNP on 20:52 - Apr 5 with 1806 views

Coastalblue

One of the biggest reasons Westminster can't allow Scotland to go their own way is Trident. It would open a very large can of worms with very little wiggle room for them.

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SNP on 21:23 - Apr 5 with 1781 views

DJR

SNP on 20:52 - Apr 5 by Coastalblue
One of the biggest reasons Westminster can't allow Scotland to go their own way is Trident. It would open a very large can of worms with very little wiggle room for them.

I certainly think that plays a big part.

SNP on 08:37 - Apr 6 with 1610 views

SNP on 15:12 - Apr 5 by HARRY10
Greater autonomy yes. Independence is the la la land of Braveheart, Buckfast and deepfried idiocy

But autonomy without a sovereign economy and the ability to borrow and spend on their own terms isn’t autonomy.

Scotland, like the local authorities in England and Wales, has “greater autonomy” over the years where they have to take responsibility but without the budget to truly do so.

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SNP on 09:12 - Apr 6 with 1573 views

SNP on 18:22 - Apr 5 by factual_blue
Scotland, I suspect, lacks the strong foundations for a strong Danish style economy. Let's not forget the Scots love a bit of cheeky economic fantasy: that's why they had to give up their independence in the early 18th century. They'd spaffed all their money on the Darien Scheme.

What are the “strong foundations for a strong Danish style economy”? And why doesn’t Scotland have them after having enjoyed the bounty of the Union for all these years?

I wouldn’t disagree that Denmark and the rest of Northwestern Europe has left the UK regions in the dust (we’re now economically on a par with Slovakia and other former Soviet bloc countries). But that continued long-term decline with little opportunity to reverse it is why change is needed.

We’re talking about developing a modern, mixed economy like Denmark’s. Any steps towards would be much, much better for Scotland in the medium to long term. Increasing GDP by tens of billions (not double the GDP that the Danes currently enjoy) is a modest target, and given the natural and human resources and advantages Scotland has, it’s eminently doable.

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SNP on 09:27 - Apr 6 with 1538 views

SNP on 09:12 - Apr 6 by Darth_Koont

Again, if they leave on a cliff edge no-deal from a union which represents 60pc of their trade, how will they survive the first few years? If they joint the single market they’ll have a hard border with England. There is no way the EU would negotiate a deal whilst part of the UK for fear of setting precedent (Catalonia etc). Nobody seems to be able to answer that - not least the SNP.

They’ll see the same capital flight we saw after Brexit, I’ve yet to see a compelling reason why SCEXIT is any more viable than Brexit. That’s without considering currency and monetary policy issues (they won’t have financial independence if they have sterling), allocation of UK national debt, pension legacy, defence, NATO membership et etc. It’s all unicorns and ‘have your cake’.

SNP on 09:38 - Apr 6 with 1534 views

SNP on 09:27 - Apr 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna

How do Ireland manage? Brexit put them in the same position re: their largest trading partner. Then there’s Northern Ireland’s current status that shows a workaround.

Yes, it’s not ideal but the real fantasy is the insistence that all this is impossible. Including the now debunked Spanish/Catalonia block that only would have applied if the UK was still in the EU.

Also the more pertinent point is what is the future of the UK economy? And the regions that aren’t in its ridiculously centralised orbit. On its own terms, the UK economy looks holed beneath the waterline with no indication of a viable solution to reform and restructure it.

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SNP on 09:51 - Apr 6 with 1519 views

SNP on 09:38 - Apr 6 by Darth_Koont

You’ve not really addressed any of the key points there, I suspect because they are too complex for SNP to address. I’m sure being chained to a weakening Sterling whilst having no say in monetary policy and trading with the Eurozone will work wonders for them.

And regarding the managed decline of the rUK surely the answer is for Scotland to work for reform from within. Or does that argument only apply to Brexit..

SNP on 14:35 - Apr 6 with 1467 views