| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County 15:06 - Apr 23 with 3051 views | SlippinJimmyJuan |
Three go down from the Premier League, three come up from the Championship.Three go down from the Championship, three come up from League 1.
FOUR go down from League 1, FOUR come up from League 2. TWO go down from League 2, TWO come up from the National League.
Can anyone explain why they didn't just stick with the three up, three down system all the way? Is it something to do with the regional split below the National League?
Wishing Notts County all the best in the play offs, would be good to have two proper clubs back in the pyramid. |  |
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| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 15:10 - Apr 23 with 2755 views | Oldsmoker |
The number of teams relegated is decided by the Football League and voted for by the 72 member clubs.
Turkeys don't tend to vote for Xmas. |  |
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| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 15:13 - Apr 23 with 2728 views | Trequartista |
There used to be no automatic promotion at all to League 2. I think it's something traditional about preserving a distance between league clubs and non-league clubs rather than the national league being just division 5. Obviously we don't want a closed door with re-election votes like it used to be, but we want to keep it so you really have to prove yourself to become a league club again.
You even called Notts County and Wrexham "proper clubs". They happen to be the ones fighting to get back, but its along those sort of lines i'm talking about.
[Post edited 23 Apr 2023 15:14]
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| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 15:18 - Apr 23 with 2695 views | SlippinJimmyJuan |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 15:10 - Apr 23 by Oldsmoker |
The number of teams relegated is decided by the Football League and voted for by the 72 member clubs.
Turkeys don't tend to vote for Xmas. |
Can't help but think they have made a relatively simple situation needlessly complicated. Three up, three down just makes sense to me.
...and while we're at it, how can it make sense that we expect smaller clubs/lesser players to handle a 46 game season, but the big boys only have to play 38. Five divisions of 20 please. | |
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| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 15:23 - Apr 23 with 2662 views | Oldsmoker |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 15:18 - Apr 23 by SlippinJimmyJuan |
Can't help but think they have made a relatively simple situation needlessly complicated. Three up, three down just makes sense to me.
...and while we're at it, how can it make sense that we expect smaller clubs/lesser players to handle a 46 game season, but the big boys only have to play 38. Five divisions of 20 please. |
The 5 divs of 20 teams has made sense to me for a long time.
Every discussion I've had about this always revolves around money.
It's 19 home games v 23.
That's 4 games lost revenue. | |
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| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 15:25 - Apr 23 with 2647 views | SlippinJimmyJuan |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 15:13 - Apr 23 by Trequartista |
There used to be no automatic promotion at all to League 2. I think it's something traditional about preserving a distance between league clubs and non-league clubs rather than the national league being just division 5. Obviously we don't want a closed door with re-election votes like it used to be, but we want to keep it so you really have to prove yourself to become a league club again.
You even called Notts County and Wrexham "proper clubs". They happen to be the ones fighting to get back, but its along those sort of lines i'm talking about.
[Post edited 23 Apr 2023 15:14]
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I take your point, but there's really not much between most of League 2 and most the National League these days. A six team play off just seems like a cruel joke.
You're right about the "proper clubs" comment, because I look down that table and there are several others all the way down to 23rd that I include in that. Basically just shorthand for typically well-supported, former league sides. So there is definitely a bias, I just can't see the benefit of a woeful side like Crawley staying in the league at the expense of a side with 106 points. | |
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| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 15:29 - Apr 23 with 2622 views | SlippinJimmyJuan |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 15:23 - Apr 23 by Oldsmoker |
The 5 divs of 20 teams has made sense to me for a long time.
Every discussion I've had about this always revolves around money.
It's 19 home games v 23.
That's 4 games lost revenue. |
That must be the logic, and given how pitiful the TV deal is at the moment, I can understand it. It just seems illogical from a player welfare point of view, too many Saturday-Tuesdays, as much as I love a midweeker. | |
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| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 15:35 - Apr 23 with 2595 views | Oldsmoker |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 15:25 - Apr 23 by SlippinJimmyJuan |
I take your point, but there's really not much between most of League 2 and most the National League these days. A six team play off just seems like a cruel joke.
You're right about the "proper clubs" comment, because I look down that table and there are several others all the way down to 23rd that I include in that. Basically just shorthand for typically well-supported, former league sides. So there is definitely a bias, I just can't see the benefit of a woeful side like Crawley staying in the league at the expense of a side with 106 points. |
Spare a thought for Yeovil Town. I think we played them in the Championship.
They have now been relegated to National League South.
Scunthorpe also relegated to National League North.
Wasn't Paul Hurst manager there for about 3 months? | |
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| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 15:56 - Apr 23 with 2465 views | SlippinJimmyJuan |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 15:35 - Apr 23 by Oldsmoker |
Spare a thought for Yeovil Town. I think we played them in the Championship.
They have now been relegated to National League South.
Scunthorpe also relegated to National League North.
Wasn't Paul Hurst manager there for about 3 months? |
Yes, I fear for them both, particularly Scunthorpe who I know are in some financial distress. It is a strange existence down there, still at least in the South & North you can have a beer in view of the pitch. | |
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| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 16:00 - Apr 23 with 2438 views | tractordownsouth |
Until 20 years ago, they even didn’t have playoffs so it was always going to take a while to catch up.
Another reason is that because so many clubs have suffered financial ruin since dropping out of the EFL, they’re reluctant to introduce a third relegation spot. And in any vote, turkeys won’t vote for Christmas so unless the vast majority of Championship and League One teams back three up three down, it won’t happen.
The best solution would be for there to be three relegation places alongside better parachute payments and safeguards against financial difficulty for those who drop down. They would also need strong policing of how those payments are spent to stop it becoming like the Premier League money where the relegated clubs have a ridiculous advantage over everyone else whenever they come down. |  |
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| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 16:18 - Apr 23 with 2375 views | patrickswell |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 15:18 - Apr 23 by SlippinJimmyJuan |
Can't help but think they have made a relatively simple situation needlessly complicated. Three up, three down just makes sense to me.
...and while we're at it, how can it make sense that we expect smaller clubs/lesser players to handle a 46 game season, but the big boys only have to play 38. Five divisions of 20 please. |
Isn’t part of the reason why the structure is the way that it is to prevent instances where clubs who may struggle to support a football league operation don’t end up over-reaching. |  | | |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 16:52 - Apr 23 with 2303 views | Sharkey |
You ask why they 'didn't just stick with' three up/three down across the system, but such uniformity never existed.
As long as I can remember, which is back to about 1972, four teams have gone up from the 'fourth division', as they still do.
If you look at 1967/68 for example, two went up from the second division (including Town) , two went up from the third division, four went up from the fourth division, (and four had to apply for re-election because they finished bottom four, plus Port vale because of some financial troubles.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967%E2%80%9368_Football_League
It's noteworthy that the teams that finished third bottom, fourth bottom and fifth bottom of League 2 last season were Barrow, Stevenage and Carlisle. Two of them have a good or very good chance of being promoted automatically to league 1 this season, while the other (Barrow) were in the mix for the play-offs until a couple of weeks ago. [Post edited 23 Apr 2023 17:01]
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| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 17:05 - Apr 23 with 2230 views | Oldsmoker |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 16:52 - Apr 23 by Sharkey |
You ask why they 'didn't just stick with' three up/three down across the system, but such uniformity never existed.
As long as I can remember, which is back to about 1972, four teams have gone up from the 'fourth division', as they still do.
If you look at 1967/68 for example, two went up from the second division (including Town) , two went up from the third division, four went up from the fourth division, (and four had to apply for re-election because they finished bottom four, plus Port vale because of some financial troubles.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967%E2%80%9368_Football_League
It's noteworthy that the teams that finished third bottom, fourth bottom and fifth bottom of League 2 last season were Barrow, Stevenage and Carlisle. Two of them have a good or very good chance of being promoted automatically to league 1 this season, while the other (Barrow) were in the mix for the play-offs until a couple of weeks ago. [Post edited 23 Apr 2023 17:01]
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It seems that the 4 teams seeking re-election to Div 4 wasn't always a given.
From wikipedia
Peterborough replaced Gateshead in 1960.
Oxford replaced Accrington Stanley in 1962.
Cambridge Utd replaced Bradford Park Avenue* in 1970.
Bradford Park Avenue went into liquidation on 3 May 1974 with debts of £57,652 and immediately re-formed as a Sunday league club playing in the league club's former colours. | |
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| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 17:09 - Apr 23 with 2214 views | SlippinJimmyJuan |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 16:00 - Apr 23 by tractordownsouth |
Until 20 years ago, they even didn’t have playoffs so it was always going to take a while to catch up.
Another reason is that because so many clubs have suffered financial ruin since dropping out of the EFL, they’re reluctant to introduce a third relegation spot. And in any vote, turkeys won’t vote for Christmas so unless the vast majority of Championship and League One teams back three up three down, it won’t happen.
The best solution would be for there to be three relegation places alongside better parachute payments and safeguards against financial difficulty for those who drop down. They would also need strong policing of how those payments are spent to stop it becoming like the Premier League money where the relegated clubs have a ridiculous advantage over everyone else whenever they come down. |
That makes sense to me. I suppose a system like that is easier said than done, but I wonder if a new TV deal could make these kinds of balances more viable. I know they are separate entities, but I really do feel as though the Premier League should have a greater duty of care towards the lower tiers. Our pyramid is special and it really should be safeguarded better than it often has been. | |
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| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 17:13 - Apr 23 with 2195 views | SlippinJimmyJuan |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 16:18 - Apr 23 by patrickswell |
Isn’t part of the reason why the structure is the way that it is to prevent instances where clubs who may struggle to support a football league operation don’t end up over-reaching. |
That's a valid concern, although I'm not sure how effective it is. I wonder whether Wrexham's success will see other investors circling some of the bigger clubs in the division in the years to come. | |
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| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 17:13 - Apr 23 with 2195 views | Sharkey |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 17:05 - Apr 23 by Oldsmoker |
It seems that the 4 teams seeking re-election to Div 4 wasn't always a given.
From wikipedia
Peterborough replaced Gateshead in 1960.
Oxford replaced Accrington Stanley in 1962.
Cambridge Utd replaced Bradford Park Avenue* in 1970.
Bradford Park Avenue went into liquidation on 3 May 1974 with debts of £57,652 and immediately re-formed as a Sunday league club playing in the league club's former colours. |
As someone pointed out on here recently, it slightly smacked of geographical bias, as northern teams were kicked out to make way for southern ones.
I learned only recently that Bradford (Park Avenue) were usually just called Bradford, just as Dundee are called Dundee (in contrast to Dundee Utd) . That's why the (Park Avenue) is in brackets, as it's not really part of their name, more an annotation. | | | |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 17:21 - Apr 23 with 2153 views | Oldsmoker |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 17:13 - Apr 23 by Sharkey |
As someone pointed out on here recently, it slightly smacked of geographical bias, as northern teams were kicked out to make way for southern ones.
I learned only recently that Bradford (Park Avenue) were usually just called Bradford, just as Dundee are called Dundee (in contrast to Dundee Utd) . That's why the (Park Avenue) is in brackets, as it's not really part of their name, more an annotation. |
I removed the brackets from the wikipedia text as I thought they made no sense.
After your post, they make sense. | |
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| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 17:23 - Apr 23 with 2140 views | SlippinJimmyJuan |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 16:52 - Apr 23 by Sharkey |
You ask why they 'didn't just stick with' three up/three down across the system, but such uniformity never existed.
As long as I can remember, which is back to about 1972, four teams have gone up from the 'fourth division', as they still do.
If you look at 1967/68 for example, two went up from the second division (including Town) , two went up from the third division, four went up from the fourth division, (and four had to apply for re-election because they finished bottom four, plus Port vale because of some financial troubles.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967%E2%80%9368_Football_League
It's noteworthy that the teams that finished third bottom, fourth bottom and fifth bottom of League 2 last season were Barrow, Stevenage and Carlisle. Two of them have a good or very good chance of being promoted automatically to league 1 this season, while the other (Barrow) were in the mix for the play-offs until a couple of weeks ago. [Post edited 23 Apr 2023 17:01]
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Apologies, that's poor wording on my part - I didn't mean sticking to a historical precedent, but just following the same pattern as the top two divisions. Three just seems like the magic number to me!
Thank you for the information, it's quite fascinating how piecemeal it all seems even today. I hadn't realised that about Barrow, Stevenage and Carlisle. It goes to show how crazy it gets the lower down you go. During the last years of Evans, particularly when the brief salary cap came in, I was terrified about the prospect of us slipping down into League 2 one day. I didn't see any way back for a club of our size. Seeing clubs like Scunthorpe and Yeovil crashing down again is chilling. A former Premier League side in Oldham down there* and a league stalwart like Rochdale finally succumbing to the drop is humbling too.
*doing better than I thought [Post edited 23 Apr 2023 17:26]
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| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 17:29 - Apr 23 with 2126 views | Sharkey |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 17:13 - Apr 23 by SlippinJimmyJuan |
That's a valid concern, although I'm not sure how effective it is. I wonder whether Wrexham's success will see other investors circling some of the bigger clubs in the division in the years to come. |
I read some (very gracious) Torquay fans saying how much good the Wrexham Americans had done for the National League by throwing their money at it, and I believe that league 2 will benefit from Wrexham and Notts County's whistle-stop tour through that league next season. But the Torquay fans were saying how unlikely it was that anyone with a magic wand would wave it in their direction, as the catchment area is too small. Of course now it's even less likely, as Torquay are effectively relegated. I wonder who the next Wrexham could be. Southend, maybe? [Post edited 23 Apr 2023 17:32]
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| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 17:40 - Apr 23 with 2076 views | farkenhell |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 17:05 - Apr 23 by Oldsmoker |
It seems that the 4 teams seeking re-election to Div 4 wasn't always a given.
From wikipedia
Peterborough replaced Gateshead in 1960.
Oxford replaced Accrington Stanley in 1962.
Cambridge Utd replaced Bradford Park Avenue* in 1970.
Bradford Park Avenue went into liquidation on 3 May 1974 with debts of £57,652 and immediately re-formed as a Sunday league club playing in the league club's former colours. |
Accrington Stanley also went bust, and why they were replaced by Oxford. I think they didn't fulfill their fixtures in their last season.
The old re-election process was a scandalous closed shop and, as a result, very few clubs were invited to join the league. The current system is much fairer, although as others have said, I agree there is a case for extending this to 3 up / 3 down. | | | |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 20:28 - Apr 23 with 1946 views | SlippinJimmyJuan |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 17:29 - Apr 23 by Sharkey |
I read some (very gracious) Torquay fans saying how much good the Wrexham Americans had done for the National League by throwing their money at it, and I believe that league 2 will benefit from Wrexham and Notts County's whistle-stop tour through that league next season. But the Torquay fans were saying how unlikely it was that anyone with a magic wand would wave it in their direction, as the catchment area is too small. Of course now it's even less likely, as Torquay are effectively relegated. I wonder who the next Wrexham could be. Southend, maybe? [Post edited 23 Apr 2023 17:32]
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The media engagement they have brought has been monumental, hopefully it keeps a few more eyes on the league going forward. I'd love to see Southend get something out of it. When I was a teenager I snuck up to watch them a couple of times with friends and always enjoyed going to Roots Hall, so have a bit of a soft spot for them. | |
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| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 21:53 - Apr 23 with 1798 views | jacobnikons |
Wrexham, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport should be made by UEFA to play in their own country's league, after all the league of wales has been going for 30 odd years and will be of a poor quality until its nation's biggest and richest clubs play in it instead of taking up the place of English club in the English system. |  | | |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 01:13 - Apr 24 with 1610 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 15:18 - Apr 23 by SlippinJimmyJuan |
Can't help but think they have made a relatively simple situation needlessly complicated. Three up, three down just makes sense to me.
...and while we're at it, how can it make sense that we expect smaller clubs/lesser players to handle a 46 game season, but the big boys only have to play 38. Five divisions of 20 please. |
League 1 and 2 players don't tend to get picked for Internationals, top Leagues have to make space in their schedule for International weeks.
Plus the ever-expanding UEFA franchise (Europa Conference?!?!?) piling on fixtures.
And Prem players not getting a proper Summer break because of Euros or World Cups. | | | |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 08:06 - Apr 24 with 1435 views | tractordownsouth |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 17:09 - Apr 23 by SlippinJimmyJuan |
That makes sense to me. I suppose a system like that is easier said than done, but I wonder if a new TV deal could make these kinds of balances more viable. I know they are separate entities, but I really do feel as though the Premier League should have a greater duty of care towards the lower tiers. Our pyramid is special and it really should be safeguarded better than it often has been. |
A better TV deal might be a good way to bridge the gap. Had Wrexham stayed down, there might have been more leverage for the National League to negotiate a more generous financial package with BT Sport, given the increased interest, but without them it will be harder. | |
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| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 08:20 - Apr 24 with 1400 views | BiGDonnie |
Naaaa, fcuk Nott County, Bromley winning the play offs! |  |
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| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 08:42 - Apr 24 with 1346 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Relegation, Promotion and Notts County on 17:05 - Apr 23 by Oldsmoker |
It seems that the 4 teams seeking re-election to Div 4 wasn't always a given.
From wikipedia
Peterborough replaced Gateshead in 1960.
Oxford replaced Accrington Stanley in 1962.
Cambridge Utd replaced Bradford Park Avenue* in 1970.
Bradford Park Avenue went into liquidation on 3 May 1974 with debts of £57,652 and immediately re-formed as a Sunday league club playing in the league club's former colours. |
Cambridge United were accused, by BPA, of buying their way into the Football .
They spent £5,000 on a glossy brochure extolling the virtues of Cambridge United sending copies to all league clubs and others of influence. |  |
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