| Letby. 17:54 - Dec 16 with 3912 views | Mercian |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cyv3jlzme90o
I am not saying she is innocent but the longer this case goes on the more I think she could be a scape-goat for terrible management and procedures at the hospital she worked at. If the main prosecution witness has changed his mind over three of the deaths then the others must be in doubt. This would not be the first time this happened. Far from it. In another current case(s) not so serious in terms of crimes but just as serious in terms of the outcome hundreds of postal workers were convicted because of terrible management, procedures and cover ups. [Post edited 16 Dec 2024 17:55]
|  | | |  |
| Letby. on 18:22 - Dec 16 with 2850 views | Funge |
MD in Private Eye has been all over this for quite some time now.
Very similar to you, insofar as rather than professing her innocence, he highlights a great deal around the case that seems poorly evidenced.
It's a huge mess. |  | | |
| Letby. on 19:57 - Dec 16 with 2664 views | LeoMuff |
It must be an incredibly hard thing to prove beyond doubt in that environment. However some of the other things eg consultant evidence, diary entries, search histories seem quite damming. |  |
| |
| Letby. on 20:23 - Dec 16 with 2598 views | Ryorry |
| Letby. on 19:57 - Dec 16 by LeoMuff |
It must be an incredibly hard thing to prove beyond doubt in that environment. However some of the other things eg consultant evidence, diary entries, search histories seem quite damming. |
From previous documentaries on this (see also previous thread on here), those are pretty flawed as well. |  |
| |
| Letby. on 20:44 - Dec 16 with 2528 views | LeoMuff |
| Letby. on 20:23 - Dec 16 by Ryorry |
From previous documentaries on this (see also previous thread on here), those are pretty flawed as well. |
I’m not sure how Letby standing by and not acting when 1:1 nursing a child whose breathing tube was dislodged could be construed as flawed? And why search social media for deceased relatives on special occasions ? Not a pre requisite for murder but highly unusual I would think ? | |
| |
| Letby. on 20:48 - Dec 16 with 2513 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Letby. on 20:44 - Dec 16 by LeoMuff |
I’m not sure how Letby standing by and not acting when 1:1 nursing a child whose breathing tube was dislodged could be construed as flawed? And why search social media for deceased relatives on special occasions ? Not a pre requisite for murder but highly unusual I would think ? |
Its pretty amazing that people on the internet and who watch documentaries have more insight into this than a judge jury, experts and experienced counsel who sat through a lengthy trial. |  | | |
| Letby. on 20:49 - Dec 16 with 2510 views | positivity |
| Letby. on 20:44 - Dec 16 by LeoMuff |
I’m not sure how Letby standing by and not acting when 1:1 nursing a child whose breathing tube was dislodged could be construed as flawed? And why search social media for deceased relatives on special occasions ? Not a pre requisite for murder but highly unusual I would think ? |
must be dreadful for the parents of the babies to have this constantly dredged up | |
| |
| Letby. on 21:22 - Dec 16 with 2420 views | PhilTWTD |
| Letby. on 20:48 - Dec 16 by redrickstuhaart |
Its pretty amazing that people on the internet and who watch documentaries have more insight into this than a judge jury, experts and experienced counsel who sat through a lengthy trial. |
The issue is that evidence of various types presented in court to the judge and jury is viewed as flawed by experts on those areas. The expert witness whose evidence played a central role in the conviction has now changed his mind regarding the deaths of three of the babies. |  | | |
| Letby. on 21:25 - Dec 16 with 2397 views | StokieBlue |
| Letby. on 21:22 - Dec 16 by PhilTWTD |
The issue is that evidence of various types presented in court to the judge and jury is viewed as flawed by experts on those areas. The expert witness whose evidence played a central role in the conviction has now changed his mind regarding the deaths of three of the babies. |
Indeed.
Also worth noting that juries can only really be informed by what they are told by the expert witnesses and if those are now proven to be unsound then the information on which they informed their opinion now also must be seen to be potentially unsound.
Certainly it's looking like there is a body of evidence forming which should constitute a retrial and another jury who are hopefully better informed by the experts.
SB |  | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Letby. on 21:27 - Dec 16 with 2370 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Letby. on 21:25 - Dec 16 by StokieBlue |
Indeed.
Also worth noting that juries can only really be informed by what they are told by the expert witnesses and if those are now proven to be unsound then the information on which they informed their opinion now also must be seen to be potentially unsound.
Certainly it's looking like there is a body of evidence forming which should constitute a retrial and another jury who are hopefully better informed by the experts.
SB |
Except for the fact there will have been experts on both sides, questions put to them by both sides etc etc. Evidence is rarely perfect. Its the totality that matters. | | | |
| Letby. on 21:33 - Dec 16 with 2344 views | StokieBlue |
| Letby. on 21:27 - Dec 16 by redrickstuhaart |
Except for the fact there will have been experts on both sides, questions put to them by both sides etc etc. Evidence is rarely perfect. Its the totality that matters. |
I tend to agree with a lot of what you post but this time we have differing opinions.
Let's take an example:
- One expert tells you that 2+2=5
- Another expert tells you that 2+2=4
Only one of them is right, the totality is actually flawed as it's diluted by the incorrect information. I do agree that evidence is rarely perfect but if someone forms an opinion on something that is later decided to be false then what possible objection could one have with regards to allowing that opinion to be modified with the more correct data?
So I would actually argue it's exactly the opposite, it's isn't the totality that matters, it's the accuracy of the totality. Subtle but very different things.
SB | | | |
| Letby. on 21:38 - Dec 16 with 2321 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Letby. on 21:33 - Dec 16 by StokieBlue |
I tend to agree with a lot of what you post but this time we have differing opinions.
Let's take an example:
- One expert tells you that 2+2=5
- Another expert tells you that 2+2=4
Only one of them is right, the totality is actually flawed as it's diluted by the incorrect information. I do agree that evidence is rarely perfect but if someone forms an opinion on something that is later decided to be false then what possible objection could one have with regards to allowing that opinion to be modified with the more correct data?
So I would actually argue it's exactly the opposite, it's isn't the totality that matters, it's the accuracy of the totality. Subtle but very different things.
SB |
There would have been at least two experts in the trial.
And there is a range of opion. | | | |
| Letby. on 21:38 - Dec 16 with 2321 views | Mercian |
| Letby. on 20:48 - Dec 16 by redrickstuhaart |
Its pretty amazing that people on the internet and who watch documentaries have more insight into this than a judge jury, experts and experienced counsel who sat through a lengthy trial. |
So juries cannot be wrong and miscarriages of justice cannot happen? We hear about a good number on reputable TV news and these are just the cases worthy of national coverage. We are unlikely to hear about miscarriages concerning more minor offences. [Post edited 16 Dec 2024 21:39]
| | | |
| Letby. on 21:40 - Dec 16 with 2312 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Letby. on 21:38 - Dec 16 by Mercian |
So juries cannot be wrong and miscarriages of justice cannot happen? We hear about a good number on reputable TV news and these are just the cases worthy of national coverage. We are unlikely to hear about miscarriages concerning more minor offences. [Post edited 16 Dec 2024 21:39]
|
Not what I said.
But conspiracy theories on the internet are not often a better bet than a trial. | | | |
| Letby. on 21:41 - Dec 16 with 2305 views | LeoMuff |
| Letby. on 21:33 - Dec 16 by StokieBlue |
I tend to agree with a lot of what you post but this time we have differing opinions.
Let's take an example:
- One expert tells you that 2+2=5
- Another expert tells you that 2+2=4
Only one of them is right, the totality is actually flawed as it's diluted by the incorrect information. I do agree that evidence is rarely perfect but if someone forms an opinion on something that is later decided to be false then what possible objection could one have with regards to allowing that opinion to be modified with the more correct data?
So I would actually argue it's exactly the opposite, it's isn't the totality that matters, it's the accuracy of the totality. Subtle but very different things.
SB |
I could be wrong but I don’t believe there were any expert witnesses for the defence in the letby trial ? | |
| |
| Letby. on 21:46 - Dec 16 with 2281 views | StokieBlue |
| Letby. on 21:41 - Dec 16 by LeoMuff |
I could be wrong but I don’t believe there were any expert witnesses for the defence in the letby trial ? |
I don't know - I didn't make the claim of totality so would need to check.
SB | | | |
| Letby. on 21:48 - Dec 16 with 2262 views | StokieBlue |
| Letby. on 21:38 - Dec 16 by redrickstuhaart |
There would have been at least two experts in the trial.
And there is a range of opion. |
If there were two experts and one of them has changed their mind on some evidence then the jury would have been presented with data which they were told was 100% correct and now is far beneath that threshold.
I know this is a simplistic example but surely you see the issues here?
SB | | | |
| Letby. on 21:49 - Dec 16 with 2256 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Letby. on 21:48 - Dec 16 by StokieBlue |
If there were two experts and one of them has changed their mind on some evidence then the jury would have been presented with data which they were told was 100% correct and now is far beneath that threshold.
I know this is a simplistic example but surely you see the issues here?
SB |
I understand them very fully. | | | |
| Letby. on 22:12 - Dec 16 with 2189 views | PhilTWTD |
| Letby. on 21:41 - Dec 16 by LeoMuff |
I could be wrong but I don’t believe there were any expert witnesses for the defence in the letby trial ? |
No, the defence didn't call an expert medical witness. They were advised by a retired consultant neonatologist but they decided not to call him as a witness at the last minute, for reasons best known to themselves. The original defence team appear not to have covered themselves in glory. | | | |
| Letby. on 22:27 - Dec 16 with 2102 views | Ryorry |
| Letby. on 20:44 - Dec 16 by LeoMuff |
I’m not sure how Letby standing by and not acting when 1:1 nursing a child whose breathing tube was dislodged could be construed as flawed? And why search social media for deceased relatives on special occasions ? Not a pre requisite for murder but highly unusual I would think ? |
There were reasons for that given in the docus, most of which details I've forgotten except a vague recollection that the diaries thing was a direct result of her being advised by therapists to explore all of her own feelings & points of view as she might be seen by others, post-arrest. | |
| |
| Letby. on 22:31 - Dec 16 with 2086 views | Ryorry |
| Letby. on 20:23 - Dec 16 by Ryorry |
From previous documentaries on this (see also previous thread on here), those are pretty flawed as well. |
This is the other thread (it's poss there's another one somewhere too, but don't have time to search more atm); + reference to the docu.
| |
| |
| Letby. on 22:35 - Dec 16 with 2078 views | LeoMuff |
| Letby. on 22:27 - Dec 16 by Ryorry |
There were reasons for that given in the docus, most of which details I've forgotten except a vague recollection that the diaries thing was a direct result of her being advised by therapists to explore all of her own feelings & points of view as she might be seen by others, post-arrest. |
Yep I get the diaries, could be interpreted in many ways many of which do not indicate malice. But standing by when nursing a child who breathing tube is dislodged and desaturating that is concerning . The searches of parents on anniversaries of deaths also concerning. One of which is evidence of course but… | |
| |
| Letby. on 22:43 - Dec 16 with 2051 views | Ryorry |
| Letby. on 22:35 - Dec 16 by LeoMuff |
Yep I get the diaries, could be interpreted in many ways many of which do not indicate malice. But standing by when nursing a child who breathing tube is dislodged and desaturating that is concerning . The searches of parents on anniversaries of deaths also concerning. One of which is evidence of course but… |
Thing is, nobody here is saying she's definitely 'not guilty'or 'guilty', just that there are such massive flaws in every part of the evidence given - or not given - that the conviction at the very least is unsafe and requires re-trial.
The points about the appalling, reorded, insanitary conditions in that particular ward, and the same symptoms/death rates in other neo-natal units both in the UK & abroad, which were ascribed to outbreaks of bacterial infection, appears to have been completely ignored at the trial? | |
| |
| Letby. on 22:51 - Dec 16 with 2014 views | LeoMuff |
| Letby. on 22:43 - Dec 16 by Ryorry |
Thing is, nobody here is saying she's definitely 'not guilty'or 'guilty', just that there are such massive flaws in every part of the evidence given - or not given - that the conviction at the very least is unsafe and requires re-trial.
The points about the appalling, reorded, insanitary conditions in that particular ward, and the same symptoms/death rates in other neo-natal units both in the UK & abroad, which were ascribed to outbreaks of bacterial infection, appears to have been completely ignored at the trial? |
Unfortunately i would think it will be impossible to prove/disprove the medical evidence as so many causative factors for the prescribed deaths, we will see.
A bacterial infection if present would be ruled out at autopsy, so appears not to have been the case, though of course these were very poorly babies so many also have been present, but deemed not causative. | |
| |
| Letby. on 23:54 - Dec 16 with 1889 views | Ryorry |
| Letby. on 22:51 - Dec 16 by LeoMuff |
Unfortunately i would think it will be impossible to prove/disprove the medical evidence as so many causative factors for the prescribed deaths, we will see.
A bacterial infection if present would be ruled out at autopsy, so appears not to have been the case, though of course these were very poorly babies so many also have been present, but deemed not causative. |
Iirc, bacterial infection wasn't ruled out at autopsy in the Belgian case, where a nurse was also convicted, but the infection was found later & her conviction overturned. Have only a hazy memory from previous research, but it might be something cited in the Private Eye investigation. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
