| No British citizenship for genuine refugees 12:17 - Feb 12 with 6542 views | DJR |
I am sure I am not alone in finding this troubling. Indeed, if the Tories did this, I am sure there'd be more outrage.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/11/uk-home-office-citizenship-refu
Perhaps like the Syrian applicants for refugee status currently held in limbo, the hope is they will eventually return to their homeland.
Or maybe the Government hopes it will discourage people, but I can't see that happening because those coming to our shores won't have any idea about our immigration system.
Another aspect I find distasteful is the continuing use of the concept of illegality in relation to people seeking asylum, as evidenced by this passage from the guidance.
"Any person applying for citizenship from 10 February 2025, who previously entered the UK illegally will normally be refused, regardless of the time that has passed since the illegal entry took place.”
Effectively, these people will be left in perpetual limbo (with employers probably reluctant to employ them), and might not even be able to leave the country because I am not sure how easy it is to get, say, an up-to date Iraqi passport if you are, say, a Kurd.
[Post edited 12 Feb 12:20]
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 12:31 - Feb 12 with 3198 views | SaffronWaldenBlues |
Sooner or later the penny will drop with the left that Kier Starmer is a right-wing neo-liberal and his Government is influenced by the same lobbyists and politics that controlled the last Government, and the current opposition. But so many tribalists are stuck in the mire of blindly voting for the same thing over and over again based on a football fan-like support for their party, who can never do any wrong and it's always the other's fault.
Yet we have had PMs change, Governments change, and the one thing that doesn't change is the politics and the results, and yet nobody can see it. They can deflect and blame Farage and keep your attention over there while they lap up your vote and quietly continue business as normal, and keep up the act at PMQs so the ever-dwindling number of voters can still believe the show. |  |
| An East Anglian Town overtaken by Londoners |
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 12:40 - Feb 12 with 3163 views | DJR |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 12:31 - Feb 12 by SaffronWaldenBlues |
Sooner or later the penny will drop with the left that Kier Starmer is a right-wing neo-liberal and his Government is influenced by the same lobbyists and politics that controlled the last Government, and the current opposition. But so many tribalists are stuck in the mire of blindly voting for the same thing over and over again based on a football fan-like support for their party, who can never do any wrong and it's always the other's fault.
Yet we have had PMs change, Governments change, and the one thing that doesn't change is the politics and the results, and yet nobody can see it. They can deflect and blame Farage and keep your attention over there while they lap up your vote and quietly continue business as normal, and keep up the act at PMQs so the ever-dwindling number of voters can still believe the show. |
There is a reason I have resigned from the Labour Party twice in the last 20 odd years, the last time about 18 months ago. | | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 12:41 - Feb 12 with 3159 views | gtsb1966 |
Who enter the UK illegally. It's the correct decision and about time too. If you break our laws you shouldn't be allowed in. It's a shame they don't just turn them away there and then to be honest. If you want to come here do it the legal way. |  | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 12:47 - Feb 12 with 3107 views | DJR |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 12:41 - Feb 12 by gtsb1966 |
Who enter the UK illegally. It's the correct decision and about time too. If you break our laws you shouldn't be allowed in. It's a shame they don't just turn them away there and then to be honest. If you want to come here do it the legal way. |
There is no "legal" way for the people concerned but the following link states the following.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-is-it-illegal-to-cross-the-cha
Under existing British law, it’s illegal to enter the country without a visa or special permission. That means someone who reaches the UK on a small boat could face up to four years in prison.
But people who make the Channel crossing are protected by international law if they claim asylum once they arrive.
That means they can’t be punished while their application is being considered – and if they’re successful, they won’t be prosecuted for the way they arrived.
So, arriving by small boat is only illegal if you don’t claim asylum – or if you make an asylum claim and it’s rejected. | | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 12:50 - Feb 12 with 3057 views | J2BLUE |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 12:47 - Feb 12 by DJR |
There is no "legal" way for the people concerned but the following link states the following.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-is-it-illegal-to-cross-the-cha
Under existing British law, it’s illegal to enter the country without a visa or special permission. That means someone who reaches the UK on a small boat could face up to four years in prison.
But people who make the Channel crossing are protected by international law if they claim asylum once they arrive.
That means they can’t be punished while their application is being considered – and if they’re successful, they won’t be prosecuted for the way they arrived.
So, arriving by small boat is only illegal if you don’t claim asylum – or if you make an asylum claim and it’s rejected. |
What happens if they are picked up at sea by British boats? Does that count as getting to Britain? |  |
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 13:03 - Feb 12 with 3000 views | DJR |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 12:50 - Feb 12 by J2BLUE |
What happens if they are picked up at sea by British boats? Does that count as getting to Britain? |
That would perhaps make an interesting academic law question but given the following from asylum guidance, I imagine it is when they reach dry land especially as they will no doubt be met by Border Force staff.
"You should apply [for asylum] when you arrive in the UK or as soon as you think it would be unsafe for you to return to your own country." | | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 13:09 - Feb 12 with 2956 views | Blueschev |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 12:47 - Feb 12 by DJR |
There is no "legal" way for the people concerned but the following link states the following.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-is-it-illegal-to-cross-the-cha
Under existing British law, it’s illegal to enter the country without a visa or special permission. That means someone who reaches the UK on a small boat could face up to four years in prison.
But people who make the Channel crossing are protected by international law if they claim asylum once they arrive.
That means they can’t be punished while their application is being considered – and if they’re successful, they won’t be prosecuted for the way they arrived.
So, arriving by small boat is only illegal if you don’t claim asylum – or if you make an asylum claim and it’s rejected. |
It's just headline grabbing nonsense that will change nothing. With the law as you state, those who cross on small boats are not breaking the law if they claim asylum, which they all will as it is their reason for crossing.
If somebody arrives illegally without claiming asylum, they won't be granted citizenship anyway and it's very unlikely they'd ever apply, given the fact they're here illegally.
I wish Labour would stop this lowest common denominator rubbish. They'll never out-Farage Farage. All they do is legitimise his narrative. [Post edited 12 Feb 13:10]
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 13:25 - Feb 12 with 2857 views | Churchman |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 13:03 - Feb 12 by DJR |
That would perhaps make an interesting academic law question but given the following from asylum guidance, I imagine it is when they reach dry land especially as they will no doubt be met by Border Force staff.
"You should apply [for asylum] when you arrive in the UK or as soon as you think it would be unsafe for you to return to your own country." |
Something I don’t understand is that I thought if an asylum seeker escapes danger in their own country, should they not be applying for asylum in the first safe country they enter?
It may be I’m unduly influenced by bigoted and unpleasant noises made by Farage, Mail, hate brigade, but it feels like seeking asylum is also about picking the country you want to go to (weakest laws, own communities, no need to integrate or learn customs and language, best benefits etc). If it is, you’d certainly swerve France, Germany and co and head here wouldn’t you? I would in their position.
I don’t know the truth on this either factually or legally so this is just thoughts. So what should be done? I need to read what today’s mumblings from HoC truly mean, how this compares with European countries, costs (did I read the figure of £6.5bn for asylum seekers last year?) and whether not we are acting in concert with them or independently.
We ought to be acting with EU, but I guess Brexit scuppered that, ironically. |  | | |
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 13:54 - Feb 12 with 2772 views | nodge_blue |
Isnt the word illegal relevant here though? Im not trying to be controversial but if you enter a country illegally then you shouldn't expect citizenship? And if you need to apply for asylum then that can be done from the country you are in (presumably France), but if it is France then doesn't international law say that you should apply for asylum in the first country you arrive at?
It feels that when you are trying to take the narrative away from reform you have to start showing you are trying to stop illegal immigration. Because whether you like it or not it is a major issue for alot of people. If we dont do that then we will end up with a trump like vote sooner or later in the UK. [Post edited 12 Feb 14:25]
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 13:57 - Feb 12 with 2758 views | Blueschev |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 13:25 - Feb 12 by Churchman |
Something I don’t understand is that I thought if an asylum seeker escapes danger in their own country, should they not be applying for asylum in the first safe country they enter?
It may be I’m unduly influenced by bigoted and unpleasant noises made by Farage, Mail, hate brigade, but it feels like seeking asylum is also about picking the country you want to go to (weakest laws, own communities, no need to integrate or learn customs and language, best benefits etc). If it is, you’d certainly swerve France, Germany and co and head here wouldn’t you? I would in their position.
I don’t know the truth on this either factually or legally so this is just thoughts. So what should be done? I need to read what today’s mumblings from HoC truly mean, how this compares with European countries, costs (did I read the figure of £6.5bn for asylum seekers last year?) and whether not we are acting in concert with them or independently.
We ought to be acting with EU, but I guess Brexit scuppered that, ironically. |
"Something I don’t understand is that I thought if an asylum seeker escapes danger in their own country, should they not be applying for asylum in the first safe country they enter?"
No, that is not the case in international law. Having said that the overwhelming majority of refugees settle in the country that borders the one from which they are fleeing. For example, Turkey hosted around 3 million Syrian refugees in the wake of the civil war, whereas we took in less than 15000. | | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 14:10 - Feb 12 with 2674 views | Clapham_Junction |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 12:31 - Feb 12 by SaffronWaldenBlues |
Sooner or later the penny will drop with the left that Kier Starmer is a right-wing neo-liberal and his Government is influenced by the same lobbyists and politics that controlled the last Government, and the current opposition. But so many tribalists are stuck in the mire of blindly voting for the same thing over and over again based on a football fan-like support for their party, who can never do any wrong and it's always the other's fault.
Yet we have had PMs change, Governments change, and the one thing that doesn't change is the politics and the results, and yet nobody can see it. They can deflect and blame Farage and keep your attention over there while they lap up your vote and quietly continue business as normal, and keep up the act at PMQs so the ever-dwindling number of voters can still believe the show. |
I think the penny dropped with "the left" shortly after he was elected leader of the Labour Party and started backtracking on his platform. |  | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 14:19 - Feb 12 with 2622 views | Kievthegreat |
It's pretty troubling, but also against the refugee convention to which the UK is a signatory.
It creates a whole group of people who are essentially 2nd class. We accept they are allowed asylum, but who can never attain citizenship. Never allowed to integrate, but potentially trapped if they can't get documentation from the country they fled.
Tory, Labour and Reform immigration policies really are just variations on a theme right now. Which is bizarre because there is zero political value in trying to outflank Reform. |  | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 14:31 - Feb 12 with 2544 views | DJR |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 13:54 - Feb 12 by nodge_blue |
Isnt the word illegal relevant here though? Im not trying to be controversial but if you enter a country illegally then you shouldn't expect citizenship? And if you need to apply for asylum then that can be done from the country you are in (presumably France), but if it is France then doesn't international law say that you should apply for asylum in the first country you arrive at?
It feels that when you are trying to take the narrative away from reform you have to start showing you are trying to stop illegal immigration. Because whether you like it or not it is a major issue for alot of people. If we dont do that then we will end up with a trump like vote sooner or later in the UK. [Post edited 12 Feb 14:25]
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"Illegal" immigration is a very small percentage in comparison to "legal" immigration but you wouldn't think it. The same is not true in the States.
In the year ending September 2024, there were 36,949 detected irregular arrivals, 18% fewer than in the year ending September 2023, and 81% of these arrived by small boats.
There were 2.1 million Visitor visas granted in the year ending September 2024, 11% higher than the year ending September 2023 but 12% lower than 2019, prior to the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic. [Post edited 12 Feb 14:38]
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 14:36 - Feb 12 with 2502 views | itfcjoe |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 14:19 - Feb 12 by Kievthegreat |
It's pretty troubling, but also against the refugee convention to which the UK is a signatory.
It creates a whole group of people who are essentially 2nd class. We accept they are allowed asylum, but who can never attain citizenship. Never allowed to integrate, but potentially trapped if they can't get documentation from the country they fled.
Tory, Labour and Reform immigration policies really are just variations on a theme right now. Which is bizarre because there is zero political value in trying to outflank Reform. |
Immigration is setting the tone of the debate throughout the world - it is a global problem. But ultimately the majority of people don't want illegal immigrants turning up by the boat load every day and the country having to deal with this problem.
It's not about trying to outflank Reform, it's about showing that they are strong on immigration too, which is a vital message if they want any hope of being elected next time round. |  |
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 14:44 - Feb 12 with 2459 views | nodge_blue |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 14:31 - Feb 12 by DJR |
"Illegal" immigration is a very small percentage in comparison to "legal" immigration but you wouldn't think it. The same is not true in the States.
In the year ending September 2024, there were 36,949 detected irregular arrivals, 18% fewer than in the year ending September 2023, and 81% of these arrived by small boats.
There were 2.1 million Visitor visas granted in the year ending September 2024, 11% higher than the year ending September 2023 but 12% lower than 2019, prior to the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic. [Post edited 12 Feb 14:38]
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Im saying that the wording in the article refers to no right for citizenship for people who enter illegally. People who enter legally isn't in question? | |
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 14:44 - Feb 12 with 2451 views | Kievthegreat |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 14:36 - Feb 12 by itfcjoe |
Immigration is setting the tone of the debate throughout the world - it is a global problem. But ultimately the majority of people don't want illegal immigrants turning up by the boat load every day and the country having to deal with this problem.
It's not about trying to outflank Reform, it's about showing that they are strong on immigration too, which is a vital message if they want any hope of being elected next time round. |
It's foolhardy. They are chasing core conservative/reform voter base and realistically they're not likely to get traction there. Meanwhile they abandon their core. They'd do better to try and unite everyone to the left of the Tories than try and fight on the Tories and Reforms turf. | | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 14:49 - Feb 12 with 2439 views | itfcjoe |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 14:44 - Feb 12 by Kievthegreat |
It's foolhardy. They are chasing core conservative/reform voter base and realistically they're not likely to get traction there. Meanwhile they abandon their core. They'd do better to try and unite everyone to the left of the Tories than try and fight on the Tories and Reforms turf. |
I think people misunderstand what Labour's core is and what the general view of illegal immigration in the country is - people don't want it. They may want better routes to being able to claim asylum, or more relaxed immigration, but there isn't a Govt or populace in the world that is happy with undocumented migrants turning up in their country on a daily basis.
Immigration is setting the agenda and that is the battle the Govt has to fight, if there was a green party setting the agenda outside of Govt then it would be fighting them on their turf - but there isn't so they have to play the hand they are dealt | |
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:02 - Feb 12 with 2372 views | DJR |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 14:44 - Feb 12 by nodge_blue |
Im saying that the wording in the article refers to no right for citizenship for people who enter illegally. People who enter legally isn't in question? |
The point I was trying to make, obviously badly, is that illegal immigration is a drop in the ocean in relation to legal immigration, but the two tend to be mixed up which colours the debate.
The only way to reduce net migration is to reduce legal immigration because (short of sinking them) it seems to be very difficult to stop people coming across on small boats.
And with the example of Jewish people fleeing Nazi Germany, I think penalising genuine refugees is not humane or in accordance with international law. [Post edited 12 Feb 15:05]
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:08 - Feb 12 with 2326 views | Blueschev |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 14:49 - Feb 12 by itfcjoe |
I think people misunderstand what Labour's core is and what the general view of illegal immigration in the country is - people don't want it. They may want better routes to being able to claim asylum, or more relaxed immigration, but there isn't a Govt or populace in the world that is happy with undocumented migrants turning up in their country on a daily basis.
Immigration is setting the agenda and that is the battle the Govt has to fight, if there was a green party setting the agenda outside of Govt then it would be fighting them on their turf - but there isn't so they have to play the hand they are dealt |
What's needed is an actual honest discussion on immigration rather than the false conversation requested by those that talk about little else whilst claiming to be silenced. As can be seen from this very thread, people's perception vs reality is often stark, and Labour accepting and today promoting the false narrative that those seeking asylum are "illegal" when they know full well they are not only fuels this ignorance.
People have every right to want less immigration, but these people being angry doesn't mean that everybody has to therefore accept falsehoods as fact in order to appear to be doing something about their grievances. | | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:19 - Feb 12 with 2281 views | itfcjoe |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:08 - Feb 12 by Blueschev |
What's needed is an actual honest discussion on immigration rather than the false conversation requested by those that talk about little else whilst claiming to be silenced. As can be seen from this very thread, people's perception vs reality is often stark, and Labour accepting and today promoting the false narrative that those seeking asylum are "illegal" when they know full well they are not only fuels this ignorance.
People have every right to want less immigration, but these people being angry doesn't mean that everybody has to therefore accept falsehoods as fact in order to appear to be doing something about their grievances. |
Of course an honest discussion is needed, but we've had close to 900k immigrants for each of the last 2 years whilst people are saying that the Tories are a far-right party who are anti immigration.
But if the country wants to make a success post Brexit and free movement, there needs to be some form of workforce planning which will only factor in those people who apply for visas and are awarded them, not turn up through unsafe routes | |
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:25 - Feb 12 with 2248 views | lowhouseblue |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:19 - Feb 12 by itfcjoe |
Of course an honest discussion is needed, but we've had close to 900k immigrants for each of the last 2 years whilst people are saying that the Tories are a far-right party who are anti immigration.
But if the country wants to make a success post Brexit and free movement, there needs to be some form of workforce planning which will only factor in those people who apply for visas and are awarded them, not turn up through unsafe routes |
you understate it. we've had net migration of some 3 million in 4 years. it is an astonishing number engineered by the tory party without ever admitting they were doing it. most of this number are not coming to work. amongst those who come to work there has been a big shift to unskilled workers. of the total 5% are now skilled workers. given the number not in work and the number who are unskilled there are projections that this a major net long-term draw on public funds (in the past migrants were net contributors).
yes we need safe routes for asylum seekers - but they are a tiny portion of current net immigration - and are a bit of a distraction against the total numbers. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:27 - Feb 12 with 2240 views | Blueschev |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:19 - Feb 12 by itfcjoe |
Of course an honest discussion is needed, but we've had close to 900k immigrants for each of the last 2 years whilst people are saying that the Tories are a far-right party who are anti immigration.
But if the country wants to make a success post Brexit and free movement, there needs to be some form of workforce planning which will only factor in those people who apply for visas and are awarded them, not turn up through unsafe routes |
I don't disagree with you, however for the most part that already happens. Those arriving on small boats are a tiny minority, and claim asylum upon arrival. We do have an obligation under international law to take in refugees. Peddling this false narrative that we take in far more than anybody else and that they should just be France's problem is both false and dangerous.
The main parties talking tough on immigration whilst the numbers continue to go up pushes to discussion to the right and Farage I agree, and it understandably angers people. That they also now peddle false information makes this anger much worse. | | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:30 - Feb 12 with 2216 views | Smoresy |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 13:25 - Feb 12 by Churchman |
Something I don’t understand is that I thought if an asylum seeker escapes danger in their own country, should they not be applying for asylum in the first safe country they enter?
It may be I’m unduly influenced by bigoted and unpleasant noises made by Farage, Mail, hate brigade, but it feels like seeking asylum is also about picking the country you want to go to (weakest laws, own communities, no need to integrate or learn customs and language, best benefits etc). If it is, you’d certainly swerve France, Germany and co and head here wouldn’t you? I would in their position.
I don’t know the truth on this either factually or legally so this is just thoughts. So what should be done? I need to read what today’s mumblings from HoC truly mean, how this compares with European countries, costs (did I read the figure of £6.5bn for asylum seekers last year?) and whether not we are acting in concert with them or independently.
We ought to be acting with EU, but I guess Brexit scuppered that, ironically. |
Germany are near the very top as it happens. They're hosting over two million more refugees than we are and applications are close to quadruple ours. France is around 50% more popular. Accessibility must be a contributing factor. I'm not sure how we differ in respect to opportunities and attitudes. Viewed "per capita", we're around 15th in Europe for current applications.
Globally, 69% are held in neighbouring countries, 71% in low or middle-income countries. Countries housing the most refugees are, in order, Iran (3.8M), Turkey, Colombia, Germany, Uganda, Pakistan, Chad, Russia, Ethiopia, Bangladesh, Poland (980K), Sudan, Lebanon, France, Jordan, Kenya, DRC, Cameroon, UK (480K), South Sudan, USA, Spain, Niger, Czechia, Italy, and Iraq. |  | | |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:31 - Feb 12 with 2203 views | itfcjoe |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:27 - Feb 12 by Blueschev |
I don't disagree with you, however for the most part that already happens. Those arriving on small boats are a tiny minority, and claim asylum upon arrival. We do have an obligation under international law to take in refugees. Peddling this false narrative that we take in far more than anybody else and that they should just be France's problem is both false and dangerous.
The main parties talking tough on immigration whilst the numbers continue to go up pushes to discussion to the right and Farage I agree, and it understandably angers people. That they also now peddle false information makes this anger much worse. |
We've had to listen and spunk money away on a Rwanda plan which would have dealt with less than 1% of 1% of the net migrants into the country.....as though it was 'being tough' | |
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| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 15:36 - Feb 12 with 2166 views | SaffronWaldenBlues |
| No British citizenship for genuine refugees on 14:10 - Feb 12 by Clapham_Junction |
I think the penny dropped with "the left" shortly after he was elected leader of the Labour Party and started backtracking on his platform. |
You'd be surprised, a lot of Labour voters are still firmly head-first in the sand.
The fact Labour has instantly been more effective and hardline on immigration alone than the Tories shouldn't surprise anyone either, despite Kemi and co's pantomime screaming about boats and gangs, they are, and always have been, a massively pro-immigration party, not from the kindness perspective but exploitation, wage suppression and flooded labour markets are big money Tory donors bread and better and Kemi and co will be getting those immigration numbers back up hard and fast when Farage helps them to office in a few years time. [Post edited 12 Feb 15:38]
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| An East Anglian Town overtaken by Londoners |
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