| General Election Projected Totals 18:20 - May 4 with 3967 views | J2BLUE |
According to BBC news:
Labour 35%
Conservatives 35%
Lib Dems 16%
Others 14%
I know it's flawed and doesn't translate exactly etc but lets use it for now. Can anyone, with a straight face, actually argue against proportional representation? The Lib Dems are written off as a nothing party after the coalition but 16% of people who voted chose to vote for them. With PR that would give them over 100 MPs if it translated to a GE. Not to mention the extra votes the lesser parties would get from people knowing their vote would actually have some meaning. Proportional respresentation would actually give some representation to the proportion of people that vote for a party. Revolutionary stuff isn't it?
Can anyone argue against it? Other than the Labour/Conservative fanboys who treat it like supporting a sports team. We hear so much crap like 'it would be harder to form governments' as if forcing our politicians to work together is a bad thing. God forbid we have a system where parties don't just disagree with everything the other parties say for the sake of it.
It genuinely baffles me that an alleged democracy has such a stupid system. People rejected AV in the recent referendum, they did not reject PR. We should be demanding PR instead of bowing to a two party system. If there's one good lesson to take from Brexit it's that one party having complete control is a dangerous thing. The Tories might need a few DUP votes now but they are in complete control of Brexit. [Post edited 4 May 2018 19:35]
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| General Election Projected Totats on 18:28 - May 4 with 3938 views | footers |
Totally agree. AV+ is the model I'd take. Point is that the powers that be simply don't want it. The AV referendum was a bit of a joke (and tbh can you imagine being a Tory negotiator during the coalition discussions hearing that one of the LD's ultimate demands was a PR referendum? They must have p1ssed themselves.). I hate to generalise, but I think the majority of people aren't really aware of what PR would mean for democracy. All for it myself, but convincing the masses that it's something to go out and vote for, well... |  |
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| General Election Projected Totats on 18:41 - May 4 with 3905 views | Ftnfwest |
If you’d have been happy after the 2015 general election to have 90+ UKIP MPs then fine I guess |  | | |
| General Election Projected Totats on 18:44 - May 4 with 3894 views | GeoffSentence |
| General Election Projected Totats on 18:41 - May 4 by Ftnfwest |
If you’d have been happy after the 2015 general election to have 90+ UKIP MPs then fine I guess |
Well that's a decisive argument. Democracy may return a result you don't like so it is best to stick to the labour/tory duocracy.
I'm sold. |  |
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| General Election Projected Totats on 18:45 - May 4 with 3892 views | J2BLUE |
| General Election Projected Totats on 18:41 - May 4 by Ftnfwest |
If you’d have been happy after the 2015 general election to have 90+ UKIP MPs then fine I guess |
That is a very poor argument IMO. For starters, how many UKIP votes were in constituencies where the voter knew their preference had no chance of winning? Even if they would have got that many MPs why should those voters not be represented? You have seen what happens when voters get ignored with the Brexit vote. 90 UKIP MPs would have given them a platform in parliament to put their views across and get challenged. UKIP MPs might well have led to a better educated population on Brexit and a different results; or no vote at all if UKIP were shot down on a weekly basis.
I think it's very arrogant to dismiss UKIP voters as undeserving of representation. | |
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| General Election Projected Totats on 18:46 - May 4 with 3891 views | Clapham_Junction |
FPTP is one of the worst electoral systems out there. In Westminster Labour finished less than 2% behind the Tories (42.8% vs 41.1%) but got less than half the seats (41 vs 19).
Plus we have a few councils where every seat is held by one party.
This happens in other countries that we left with the same system. In Grenada all MPs are from one party despite the main opposition getting over 40% of the vote in the most recent election. |  | | |
| General Election Projected Totats on 18:47 - May 4 with 3882 views | Ftnfwest |
| General Election Projected Totats on 18:45 - May 4 by J2BLUE |
That is a very poor argument IMO. For starters, how many UKIP votes were in constituencies where the voter knew their preference had no chance of winning? Even if they would have got that many MPs why should those voters not be represented? You have seen what happens when voters get ignored with the Brexit vote. 90 UKIP MPs would have given them a platform in parliament to put their views across and get challenged. UKIP MPs might well have led to a better educated population on Brexit and a different results; or no vote at all if UKIP were shot down on a weekly basis.
I think it's very arrogant to dismiss UKIP voters as undeserving of representation. |
Where did I say it would have been wrong? | | | |
| General Election Projected Totats on 18:47 - May 4 with 3882 views | Ftnfwest |
| General Election Projected Totats on 18:44 - May 4 by GeoffSentence |
Well that's a decisive argument. Democracy may return a result you don't like so it is best to stick to the labour/tory duocracy.
I'm sold. |
Just putting it out there, I wouldn’t have moaned about it but many would | | | |
| General Election Projected Totats on 18:49 - May 4 with 3876 views | J2BLUE |
| General Election Projected Totats on 18:46 - May 4 by Clapham_Junction |
FPTP is one of the worst electoral systems out there. In Westminster Labour finished less than 2% behind the Tories (42.8% vs 41.1%) but got less than half the seats (41 vs 19).
Plus we have a few councils where every seat is held by one party.
This happens in other countries that we left with the same system. In Grenada all MPs are from one party despite the main opposition getting over 40% of the vote in the most recent election. |
Agreed.
On a similar note, I suspect the next Democrat president will try to change the rules on presidential elections to go with the popular vote. When they use anything but basic numbers someone is getting shafted. | |
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| General Election Projected Totats on 18:50 - May 4 with 3870 views | J2BLUE |
| General Election Projected Totats on 18:47 - May 4 by Ftnfwest |
Where did I say it would have been wrong? |
Where did I say my rebuttal was aimed at you?
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| General Election Projected Totats on 18:51 - May 4 with 3871 views | Clapham_Junction |
| General Election Projected Totats on 18:41 - May 4 by Ftnfwest |
If you’d have been happy after the 2015 general election to have 90+ UKIP MPs then fine I guess |
I accept that we may end up with BNP MPs in Parliament if we have a fair electoral system. However, I suspect that if these jokers actually ended up with some kind of responsibility instead of just shouting abuse from the sidelines, they'll be quickly found out (as they were when they won a few seats in the European elections and Nick Griffin ended up on QT).
There are far-right parties in parliament in many countries with proportional systems, but in the vast majority of cases, all other parties refuse to work with them. | | | |
| General Election Projected Totats on 18:55 - May 4 with 3851 views | Clapham_Junction |
| General Election Projected Totats on 18:49 - May 4 by J2BLUE |
Agreed.
On a similar note, I suspect the next Democrat president will try to change the rules on presidential elections to go with the popular vote. When they use anything but basic numbers someone is getting shafted. |
They should go further and have a two-round or instant runoff system and require the winner to get >50% of the vote, which would prevent spoiler candidates. | | | |
| General Election Projected Totats on 19:06 - May 4 with 3817 views | tractordownsouth |
I think AV or AMS is the best system, as you still have a local MP under the system, which you would lose under PR. I could see that pure PR could work if councils are given more devolved power as local representatives. |  |
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| General Election Projected Totats on 19:10 - May 4 with 3811 views | tractordownsouth |
| General Election Projected Totats on 18:49 - May 4 by J2BLUE |
Agreed.
On a similar note, I suspect the next Democrat president will try to change the rules on presidential elections to go with the popular vote. When they use anything but basic numbers someone is getting shafted. |
In the US, I don't see why the electoral college isnt just replaced with a popular vote for the Presidential Elections. At least here I understand that FPTP serves some sort of purpose so the Prime Minister is the party with the majority in the legislative. But since the US has the separation of powers and divided government there's absolutely no point to have FPTP for a directly elected role.
I'm not saying that because Trump won the electoral college, I appreciate he won fair and square ( Russia investigation pending) and you can't change the rules after the game. But in future, I think it certainly needs to be looked at. | |
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| General Election Projected Totats on 20:26 - May 4 with 3706 views | Ftnfwest |
| General Election Projected Totats on 18:50 - May 4 by J2BLUE |
Where did I say my rebuttal was aimed at you?
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Just do me a couple of eggs and chips and I’ll shut up! | | | |
| General Election Projected Totats on 20:27 - May 4 with 3697 views | SpruceMoose |
| General Election Projected Totats on 18:45 - May 4 by J2BLUE |
That is a very poor argument IMO. For starters, how many UKIP votes were in constituencies where the voter knew their preference had no chance of winning? Even if they would have got that many MPs why should those voters not be represented? You have seen what happens when voters get ignored with the Brexit vote. 90 UKIP MPs would have given them a platform in parliament to put their views across and get challenged. UKIP MPs might well have led to a better educated population on Brexit and a different results; or no vote at all if UKIP were shot down on a weekly basis.
I think it's very arrogant to dismiss UKIP voters as undeserving of representation. |
Indeed. What they are undeserving of is oxygen. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| General Election Projected Totats on 20:27 - May 4 with 3698 views | J2BLUE |
| General Election Projected Totats on 20:26 - May 4 by Ftnfwest |
Just do me a couple of eggs and chips and I’ll shut up! |
We're out of chips. Fish fingers do? | |
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| General Election Projected Totats on 20:27 - May 4 with 3697 views | GeoffSentence |
| General Election Projected Totats on 20:26 - May 4 by Ftnfwest |
Just do me a couple of eggs and chips and I’ll shut up! |
chips are so last year, it's egg and fish fingers these days. | |
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| General Election Projected Totats on 20:28 - May 4 with 3688 views | Ftnfwest |
| General Election Projected Totats on 20:27 - May 4 by GeoffSentence |
chips are so last year, it's egg and fish fingers these days. |
Radical! | | | |
| General Election Projected Totats on 20:29 - May 4 with 3681 views | Ftnfwest |
| General Election Projected Totats on 20:27 - May 4 by J2BLUE |
We're out of chips. Fish fingers do? |
In a buttered sandwich please, there I’ve said it | | | |
| General Election Projected Totals on 20:40 - May 4 with 3659 views | Ftnfwest |
Are those percentages right? That means labour got 1,000 more council seats than conservatives but with the same proportion of the vote. | | | |
| General Election Projected Totals on 20:52 - May 4 with 3622 views | GeoffSentence |
| General Election Projected Totals on 20:40 - May 4 by Ftnfwest |
Are those percentages right? That means labour got 1,000 more council seats than conservatives but with the same proportion of the vote. |
They are projected shares of the vote if there were to be a general election now, not the actual shares of the vote that each party got in the council elections. | |
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| General Election Projected Totals on 20:54 - May 4 with 3604 views | Ftnfwest |
| General Election Projected Totals on 20:52 - May 4 by GeoffSentence |
They are projected shares of the vote if there were to be a general election now, not the actual shares of the vote that each party got in the council elections. |
God knows how they worked that out then | | | |
| General Election Projected Totals on 21:03 - May 4 with 3592 views | bournemouthblue |
In an era of increased political polorisation I'd fear that PR would mean a generally middle ground approach which would only disenfranchise parts of the country even further which would lead to another rise of the Far Right
In PR we have seen how Far Right politics can gain traction worryingly quickly because it is fuelled by anger
In a perfect world PR is a good idea but there can certainly be unplanned consequences |  |
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| General Election Projected Totats on 21:30 - May 4 with 3552 views | m14_blue |
| General Election Projected Totats on 18:28 - May 4 by footers |
Totally agree. AV+ is the model I'd take. Point is that the powers that be simply don't want it. The AV referendum was a bit of a joke (and tbh can you imagine being a Tory negotiator during the coalition discussions hearing that one of the LD's ultimate demands was a PR referendum? They must have p1ssed themselves.). I hate to generalise, but I think the majority of people aren't really aware of what PR would mean for democracy. All for it myself, but convincing the masses that it's something to go out and vote for, well... |
I vividly remember standing in the (small) queue to vote in the AV referendum and the only other people there were 3 old ladies who were all literally holding copies of the Daily Mail.
The present system is obviously bobbins, there is no argument for it at all, it disenfranchises millions of people and leads to farcical situations where we effectively have a choice between May's Conservatives and Corbyn's Labour.
Too many of the establishment are comfortable with it and too many people blinded by the colour of the rosette to realise just how ridiculous the whole thing is. |  | | |
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