| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary 12:59 - May 4 with 2837 views | tractordownsouth |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:03 - May 4 with 2622 views | Darth_Koont |
Good luck to her.
It seems like she did a pretty decent job in very trying circumstances - both personal and professional. |  |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:11 - May 4 with 2556 views | itfcjoe |
Inevitable, terrible at running an election campaign as evidenced in 2019.
Hopefully good for her health too, can't be fun being a pawn in big internal battles |  |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:21 - May 4 with 2533 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:11 - May 4 by itfcjoe |
Inevitable, terrible at running an election campaign as evidenced in 2019.
Hopefully good for her health too, can't be fun being a pawn in big internal battles |
Formby didn't run the campaign. Karie Murphy and the leadership office did - both in 2017 and 2019. | |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:21 - May 4 with 2534 views | factual_blue |
Ah well, at least she didn't have to resign after making 'veiled threats' to a member of the public. |  |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 14:55 - May 4 with 2424 views | Swansea_Blue |
Do you think she'll now go window cleaning, to earn an honest bob? |  |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 15:34 - May 4 with 2391 views | Tonytown |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:21 - May 4 by factual_blue |
Ah well, at least she didn't have to resign after making 'veiled threats' to a member of the public. |
I’m sure that will be all over the front pages tomorrow won’t it |  | | |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 22:03 - May 4 with 2304 views | tractordownsouth |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:21 - May 4 by Darth_Koont |
Formby didn't run the campaign. Karie Murphy and the leadership office did - both in 2017 and 2019. |
How can you blame General Secretary Ian McNichol (among others) for 'sabotaging' the election campaign in 2017, but not blame General Secretary Jennie Formby for the defeat in 2019? It's neither or both, surely? | |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 11:56 - May 5 with 2149 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 22:03 - May 4 by tractordownsouth |
How can you blame General Secretary Ian McNichol (among others) for 'sabotaging' the election campaign in 2017, but not blame General Secretary Jennie Formby for the defeat in 2019? It's neither or both, surely? |
Easily.
In fact McNicol and his crew were significant factors in both defeats as by the time they left they'd sowed the seeds for the antisemitism smear campaign to be ramped up and the Independent/Change lot to put the boot in. Throughout his leadership of the party, it was the negative characterization of Corbyn himself that dominated in the polls, and McNicol et al were the ones doing the heavy lifting even to the point of sharpening the blade for the Panorama hatchet job..
You can be in denial all you want but the leaked report is pretty damning so please address that if you disagree:
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/how-top-labour-officials-plotted-bring-dow
FWIW I disagree with the author that Starmer has already decided to bury it - that seems mere opinion or at least based on evidence I haven't seen. I'm prepared to give Starmer the chance to show he's serious and fair and not caught up with the factionalism. I extend that to you to but you've got to address the content of the report. [Post edited 5 May 2020 11:57]
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 12:20 - May 5 with 2133 views | itfcjoe |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 22:03 - May 4 by tractordownsouth |
How can you blame General Secretary Ian McNichol (among others) for 'sabotaging' the election campaign in 2017, but not blame General Secretary Jennie Formby for the defeat in 2019? It's neither or both, surely? |
Cognitive dissonance | |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 12:30 - May 5 with 2126 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 12:20 - May 5 by itfcjoe |
Cognitive dissonance |
No, just cognitive, Joe.
You can try addressing the evidence too if you like. Or keep repeating your own opinion like the worst sort of Brexiteer. | |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 12:46 - May 5 with 2089 views | itfcjoe |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 12:30 - May 5 by Darth_Koont |
No, just cognitive, Joe.
You can try addressing the evidence too if you like. Or keep repeating your own opinion like the worst sort of Brexiteer. |
Like I said, cognitive dissonance.
You will find any reason or person to blame for Labour getting absolutely annihilated in December bar those actually leading the party and the election campaign | |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:02 - May 5 with 2067 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 12:46 - May 5 by itfcjoe |
Like I said, cognitive dissonance.
You will find any reason or person to blame for Labour getting absolutely annihilated in December bar those actually leading the party and the election campaign |
No, I think the leadership's position on Brexit no matter how difficult to navigate was an issue. I think they should have gone full second referendum and campaigning for Remain as early as possible to give them time to address the clear sentiment for Brexit still at large. Leaving it as a more or less an open question for so long didn't help them when people had already taken sides and weren't shifting.
And I think the evidence is now clear that Corbyn and colleagues were too naive in trying the broad church approach when so many of the PLP and the Labour HQ just weren't interested. They should have been much more ruthless in getting them out and getting ahead of the narrative.
Your turn. Or will you find any reason or person to blame to avoid addressing the evidence for what I'm saying? | |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:11 - May 5 with 2046 views | itfcjoe |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:02 - May 5 by Darth_Koont |
No, I think the leadership's position on Brexit no matter how difficult to navigate was an issue. I think they should have gone full second referendum and campaigning for Remain as early as possible to give them time to address the clear sentiment for Brexit still at large. Leaving it as a more or less an open question for so long didn't help them when people had already taken sides and weren't shifting.
And I think the evidence is now clear that Corbyn and colleagues were too naive in trying the broad church approach when so many of the PLP and the Labour HQ just weren't interested. They should have been much more ruthless in getting them out and getting ahead of the narrative.
Your turn. Or will you find any reason or person to blame to avoid addressing the evidence for what I'm saying? |
The election was fought on two main grounds
Brexit - Like you say wrong approahc, but the approach was so wrong for so long that by the time they finalised position they had already painted themselves into such a corner.
Populartiy of Boris v Corbyn - People don't like and don't trust Corbyn, and a huge amount of that is to do with his basic foreign policy of anything that the US does is bad, and anything opposed to the US is good. He'd got away with that more in 2017, but as soon as Skripal happened and his true colours shone through in that regard he was toast. It looked to everyone as though he is prepared to take the word of the Russians over our own intelligence officers. | |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:27 - May 5 with 2026 views | giant_stow |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:02 - May 5 by Darth_Koont |
No, I think the leadership's position on Brexit no matter how difficult to navigate was an issue. I think they should have gone full second referendum and campaigning for Remain as early as possible to give them time to address the clear sentiment for Brexit still at large. Leaving it as a more or less an open question for so long didn't help them when people had already taken sides and weren't shifting.
And I think the evidence is now clear that Corbyn and colleagues were too naive in trying the broad church approach when so many of the PLP and the Labour HQ just weren't interested. They should have been much more ruthless in getting them out and getting ahead of the narrative.
Your turn. Or will you find any reason or person to blame to avoid addressing the evidence for what I'm saying? |
Corbyn tried the broad church approach?! That sounds like a (flawed) opinion rather than evidence. |  |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:36 - May 5 with 2016 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:11 - May 5 by itfcjoe |
The election was fought on two main grounds
Brexit - Like you say wrong approahc, but the approach was so wrong for so long that by the time they finalised position they had already painted themselves into such a corner.
Populartiy of Boris v Corbyn - People don't like and don't trust Corbyn, and a huge amount of that is to do with his basic foreign policy of anything that the US does is bad, and anything opposed to the US is good. He'd got away with that more in 2017, but as soon as Skripal happened and his true colours shone through in that regard he was toast. It looked to everyone as though he is prepared to take the word of the Russians over our own intelligence officers. |
Brexit was the key factor in 2019 when in 2017 it was much more parked during the election.
And yes, the popularity of Corbyn was an issue throughout. You say the Skripal poisoning was his "true colours" coming out but even if he was wrong here, is he wrong to doubt UK intelligence? Really? Here's what he said:
“I think obviously the government has access to information and intelligence on this matter which others don’t; however, also there’s a history in relation to WMD and intelligence which is problematic to put it mildly.
“So I think the right approach is to seek the evidence; to follow international treaties, particularly in relation to prohibited chemical weapons, because this was a chemical weapons attack, carried out on British soil. There are procedures that need to be followed in relation to that.”
Anyway, the evidence is there that the overwhelming narrative against Corbyn in politics and the media wasn't about showing his true colours but painting him as a danger. It was one of the worst and most shameless character assassinations ever witnessed - and the real problem was that it was being amplified and in some cases manufactured within his own party.
It's only by ignoring the evidence that people can keep up this narrative. And you still haven't addressed the report and the primary source evidence it contains. | |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:41 - May 5 with 2005 views | itfcjoe |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:36 - May 5 by Darth_Koont |
Brexit was the key factor in 2019 when in 2017 it was much more parked during the election.
And yes, the popularity of Corbyn was an issue throughout. You say the Skripal poisoning was his "true colours" coming out but even if he was wrong here, is he wrong to doubt UK intelligence? Really? Here's what he said:
“I think obviously the government has access to information and intelligence on this matter which others don’t; however, also there’s a history in relation to WMD and intelligence which is problematic to put it mildly.
“So I think the right approach is to seek the evidence; to follow international treaties, particularly in relation to prohibited chemical weapons, because this was a chemical weapons attack, carried out on British soil. There are procedures that need to be followed in relation to that.”
Anyway, the evidence is there that the overwhelming narrative against Corbyn in politics and the media wasn't about showing his true colours but painting him as a danger. It was one of the worst and most shameless character assassinations ever witnessed - and the real problem was that it was being amplified and in some cases manufactured within his own party.
It's only by ignoring the evidence that people can keep up this narrative. And you still haven't addressed the report and the primary source evidence it contains. |
I'm not going to waste my time addressing the report, it's just something for Corbynites to wave around to show they were right all along rather than accept any responsibility for what subsequently happened in 2019. | |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:41 - May 5 with 2003 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:27 - May 5 by giant_stow |
Corbyn tried the broad church approach?! That sounds like a (flawed) opinion rather than evidence. |
Check out his first shadow cabinets then come back to me. And maybe you can give me your evidence that he didn't have that approach.
Seriously, this is exactly the same as dealing with Brexiteers who get all their "information" from the Express or the Mail ... that's how badly you've been played. | |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:52 - May 5 with 1992 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:41 - May 5 by itfcjoe |
I'm not going to waste my time addressing the report, it's just something for Corbynites to wave around to show they were right all along rather than accept any responsibility for what subsequently happened in 2019. |
What a surprise.
They did take a lot of responsibility. But they don't have to accept responsibility for whatever your baseless opinion tells you they do.
This is why I hate party politics. It's nonsensical when people shamelessly ignore factual evidence in order to push their opinion. | |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:53 - May 5 with 1983 views | itfcjoe |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:52 - May 5 by Darth_Koont |
What a surprise.
They did take a lot of responsibility. But they don't have to accept responsibility for whatever your baseless opinion tells you they do.
This is why I hate party politics. It's nonsensical when people shamelessly ignore factual evidence in order to push their opinion. |
They went away saying they needed to reflect, then spoke about winning the argument and then leaked a report to try and bring down the party - that's not taking responsibility. | |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:55 - May 5 with 1979 views | giant_stow |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:41 - May 5 by Darth_Koont |
Check out his first shadow cabinets then come back to me. And maybe you can give me your evidence that he didn't have that approach.
Seriously, this is exactly the same as dealing with Brexiteers who get all their "information" from the Express or the Mail ... that's how badly you've been played. |
A broad church approach isn't just about talking to one's internal enemies. the proof is in the pudding and there was nothing broad-church about Labour during his reign. Look at the manifestos, looks at how Tom Watson was isolated and removed, or for that matter how the JLM and the staff whistle-blowers were treated. The corbynites closed ranks and result was electoral annihilation | |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 14:05 - May 5 with 1963 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:53 - May 5 by itfcjoe |
They went away saying they needed to reflect, then spoke about winning the argument and then leaked a report to try and bring down the party - that's not taking responsibility. |
If you actually addressed the report as I have then perhaps you wouldn't be wasting your time as much as you are now. This is primary-source evidence FFS.
Of course the report is long so I understand why you won't do that. But the summary I posted in the thread is accurate as this one: https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/04/that-leaked-labour-party-report/
And FWIW I think the real arguments are correct. The issue was that elections aren't fought on real arguments and policies. They're fought on perceptions and establishing more or less tribal loyalties over single issues. The report addresses the very cornerstone of the anti-Corbyn narrative.
And it's ignoring the evidence in the report that will bring down the Labour Party. Let's be completely clear here. | |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 14:06 - May 5 with 1961 views | The_Last_Baron |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:36 - May 5 by Darth_Koont |
Brexit was the key factor in 2019 when in 2017 it was much more parked during the election.
And yes, the popularity of Corbyn was an issue throughout. You say the Skripal poisoning was his "true colours" coming out but even if he was wrong here, is he wrong to doubt UK intelligence? Really? Here's what he said:
“I think obviously the government has access to information and intelligence on this matter which others don’t; however, also there’s a history in relation to WMD and intelligence which is problematic to put it mildly.
“So I think the right approach is to seek the evidence; to follow international treaties, particularly in relation to prohibited chemical weapons, because this was a chemical weapons attack, carried out on British soil. There are procedures that need to be followed in relation to that.”
Anyway, the evidence is there that the overwhelming narrative against Corbyn in politics and the media wasn't about showing his true colours but painting him as a danger. It was one of the worst and most shameless character assassinations ever witnessed - and the real problem was that it was being amplified and in some cases manufactured within his own party.
It's only by ignoring the evidence that people can keep up this narrative. And you still haven't addressed the report and the primary source evidence it contains. |
In 2017 Labour said they'd respect the referendum result and leave the EU. As a result they largely kept their working class support in the Midlands and North.
In 2019 they were a firmly a party of remaining in the EU. They might not have explicitly said this but that is what their mumbo jumbo amounted to. A coalition of the SNP, LD and Labour would have killed Brexit. They lost huge swathes of their working class voters due to this and their obsession with 'progressive' nonsense which plays well to London and very few other places.
Boris Johnson is also well liked by the public at large. Corbyn is not trusted and not liked by the public at large.
The Labour Party of old is sadly long gone. Now they have an EU fanatic as a leader who has no charisma or personality. |  |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 14:13 - May 5 with 1949 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 13:55 - May 5 by giant_stow |
A broad church approach isn't just about talking to one's internal enemies. the proof is in the pudding and there was nothing broad-church about Labour during his reign. Look at the manifestos, looks at how Tom Watson was isolated and removed, or for that matter how the JLM and the staff whistle-blowers were treated. The corbynites closed ranks and result was electoral annihilation |
So you ignored the shadow cabinets I see.
The manifestos were largely decided by the members. Brexit is where Corbyn and others seemed to buck the trend but that was clearly a major error. Trying to assuage Brexit voters and compromise became ultimately pointless.
JLM and Tom Watson are all over this mate and it's not good. So I don't think you want to be taking their side.
As I said, address the report and then you can perhaps make a relevant point. | |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 14:14 - May 5 with 1948 views | itfcjoe |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 14:05 - May 5 by Darth_Koont |
If you actually addressed the report as I have then perhaps you wouldn't be wasting your time as much as you are now. This is primary-source evidence FFS.
Of course the report is long so I understand why you won't do that. But the summary I posted in the thread is accurate as this one: https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/04/that-leaked-labour-party-report/
And FWIW I think the real arguments are correct. The issue was that elections aren't fought on real arguments and policies. They're fought on perceptions and establishing more or less tribal loyalties over single issues. The report addresses the very cornerstone of the anti-Corbyn narrative.
And it's ignoring the evidence in the report that will bring down the Labour Party. Let's be completely clear here. |
The Labour party has been brought down, by those who the put the report together then leaked it to all and sundry.
It now has to repair it's reputation from here, to make itself electable again. It will need to look at the report as part of that, but anyone who thinks the report is some sort of golden bullet is going to be left frustrated | |
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| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 14:22 - May 5 with 1934 views | Darth_Koont |
| Jennie Formby has left as Labour General Secretary on 14:06 - May 5 by The_Last_Baron |
In 2017 Labour said they'd respect the referendum result and leave the EU. As a result they largely kept their working class support in the Midlands and North.
In 2019 they were a firmly a party of remaining in the EU. They might not have explicitly said this but that is what their mumbo jumbo amounted to. A coalition of the SNP, LD and Labour would have killed Brexit. They lost huge swathes of their working class voters due to this and their obsession with 'progressive' nonsense which plays well to London and very few other places.
Boris Johnson is also well liked by the public at large. Corbyn is not trusted and not liked by the public at large.
The Labour Party of old is sadly long gone. Now they have an EU fanatic as a leader who has no charisma or personality. |
I don't disagree. The question is why and how that all happened which you need to look at objectively.
But at heart it was about "Corbyn not being trusted and liked by the public at large" and the characterisation of his politics as "progressive nonsense". These perceptions were always going to be part of a predominantly right-wing media narrative not to mention Tory campaigning. The nail in the coffin was to have a large faction within Labour amplifying and indeed in some cases manufacturing that narrative. It didn't bear up to objective scrutiny then and does so even less when the facts emerge.
"The Labour Party of old is sadly long gone" - that's just a sick joke. when you read about these "Labour Party of old" people and what they did. [Post edited 5 May 2020 14:24]
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