| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here 17:41 - Jun 7 with 3474 views | Mullet |
Lots of ITFC connections too.
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| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 18:01 - Jun 7 with 3395 views | solemio |
Well said, that Canadian. Strong, but balanced. |  | | |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 20:24 - Jun 7 with 3260 views | BlueBadger |
To paraphrase a musician friend of mine 'if a goalkeeper(drummer) gets it, it's not hard is it?' |  |
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| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 20:28 - Jun 7 with 3257 views | vapour_trail |
He’s white though!
It’s a good thread. Heard Shaka Hislop on the radio yesterday, really articulate, good listen.
Didn’t say when he’d be signing for us though. |  |
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| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 07:43 - Jun 8 with 3039 views | The_Major |
Always good to see that Yallop screamer against Man Utd. And lest we forget, he scored an identical one against Spurs a few days before. |  | | |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 10:21 - Jun 8 with 2976 views | Kropotkin123 |
"When black players retire and want to move into coaching, management they have very little chance of ever being a head coach at any of the 92 pro clubs or see them in positions of power"
When I say Kieron Dyer could be an excellent manager for us and people dismiss it and then suggest Matt Holland, who has zero qualifications and who didn't play under as good managers, I think of unconscious bias.
I think it would be wrong to suggest that people are deliberately racist, but I think unconscious bias is a big part of the reason why people don't take him as seriously as they should.
He's an Ipswich lad, who made it to the very top, who has actively worked with our youth set up, whilst learning the trade. I sincerely hope he gets the job when it is next available, which is hopefully sooner rather than later. [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 10:22]
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| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 10:28 - Jun 8 with 2957 views | Herbivore |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 10:21 - Jun 8 by Kropotkin123 |
"When black players retire and want to move into coaching, management they have very little chance of ever being a head coach at any of the 92 pro clubs or see them in positions of power"
When I say Kieron Dyer could be an excellent manager for us and people dismiss it and then suggest Matt Holland, who has zero qualifications and who didn't play under as good managers, I think of unconscious bias.
I think it would be wrong to suggest that people are deliberately racist, but I think unconscious bias is a big part of the reason why people don't take him as seriously as they should.
He's an Ipswich lad, who made it to the very top, who has actively worked with our youth set up, whilst learning the trade. I sincerely hope he gets the job when it is next available, which is hopefully sooner rather than later. [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 10:22]
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Not sure I've seen much opposition to Dyer potentially getting the job on here. There seems to generally be a fiat bit of support for it. By contrast, I've not seen too many suggest Holland and when they do it's usually met with questions about his experience and credentials. That doesn't detract from the wider point of unconscious bias and there's tons of evidence for it, I'm just not convinced by that specific example. |  |
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| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 10:32 - Jun 8 with 2940 views | Herbivore |
And in respect of the OP, great twitter thread. Craig Forrest gets it. | |
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| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 11:08 - Jun 8 with 2887 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 10:21 - Jun 8 by Kropotkin123 |
"When black players retire and want to move into coaching, management they have very little chance of ever being a head coach at any of the 92 pro clubs or see them in positions of power"
When I say Kieron Dyer could be an excellent manager for us and people dismiss it and then suggest Matt Holland, who has zero qualifications and who didn't play under as good managers, I think of unconscious bias.
I think it would be wrong to suggest that people are deliberately racist, but I think unconscious bias is a big part of the reason why people don't take him as seriously as they should.
He's an Ipswich lad, who made it to the very top, who has actively worked with our youth set up, whilst learning the trade. I sincerely hope he gets the job when it is next available, which is hopefully sooner rather than later. [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 10:22]
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Dyer has been vocally dissident at times towards the way the club is run and some of the decisions made.
He obviously left the academy. I'd be interested to know from someone with more insight than me how Kieron is regarded by those running the academy and his relationship with Lee O'Neill? As that is surely his route into ME's thoughts as a consideration for the Town job? | | | |
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| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 11:51 - Jun 8 with 2842 views | Mullet |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 11:08 - Jun 8 by tractorboy1978 |
Dyer has been vocally dissident at times towards the way the club is run and some of the decisions made.
He obviously left the academy. I'd be interested to know from someone with more insight than me how Kieron is regarded by those running the academy and his relationship with Lee O'Neill? As that is surely his route into ME's thoughts as a consideration for the Town job? |
So has Lambert to be fair although he has done it once inside the door!
On a tangent and back to Krop's post, I know we had a few knuckleheads during MM's time give Nouble and JET the ironically lazy treatment with their assumptions. Did TC get any hassle though?
I think Dyer is as good shout as any for ME's next cheap and positive PR appointment if things continue to go wrong. | |
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| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 11:59 - Jun 8 with 2832 views | Herbivore |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 11:51 - Jun 8 by Mullet |
So has Lambert to be fair although he has done it once inside the door!
On a tangent and back to Krop's post, I know we had a few knuckleheads during MM's time give Nouble and JET the ironically lazy treatment with their assumptions. Did TC get any hassle though?
I think Dyer is as good shout as any for ME's next cheap and positive PR appointment if things continue to go wrong. |
Mings had similar comments in respect of 'attitude'. There is definitely some unconscious racism in how players of colour are described in comparison to white players when being criticised. It is usually linked back to attitude, temperament or intellect when it's a black player in a way that isn't replicated when discussing white players. | |
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| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 13:25 - Jun 8 with 2748 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 11:51 - Jun 8 by Mullet |
So has Lambert to be fair although he has done it once inside the door!
On a tangent and back to Krop's post, I know we had a few knuckleheads during MM's time give Nouble and JET the ironically lazy treatment with their assumptions. Did TC get any hassle though?
I think Dyer is as good shout as any for ME's next cheap and positive PR appointment if things continue to go wrong. |
You could say similar about Pablo - there was this bizarre insinuation he didn't bother turning up when it was cold. And that was based on him being Spanish. And you hear it all the time about Latino players - "but can he do it on a cold Tuesday night in Stoke". Keane even described him in his book as being "dead, dead lazy". | | | |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 13:35 - Jun 8 with 2736 views | Herbivore |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 13:25 - Jun 8 by tractorboy1978 |
You could say similar about Pablo - there was this bizarre insinuation he didn't bother turning up when it was cold. And that was based on him being Spanish. And you hear it all the time about Latino players - "but can he do it on a cold Tuesday night in Stoke". Keane even described him in his book as being "dead, dead lazy". |
I think that was more to do with the type of player Pablo was rather than his nationality. Tarrico, another Latino player, never faced the same kinds of criticisms when here. | |
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| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 13:42 - Jun 8 with 2723 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 13:35 - Jun 8 by Herbivore |
I think that was more to do with the type of player Pablo was rather than his nationality. Tarrico, another Latino player, never faced the same kinds of criticisms when here. |
That's true but you could also say Darren Bent and Fabian Wilnis never had their temperament/attitude questioned. It's complexed isn't it - race and pre-conceived ideas certainly do play a part at times though, I think that is without doubt. | | | |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 13:51 - Jun 8 with 2715 views | Herbivore |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 13:42 - Jun 8 by tractorboy1978 |
That's true but you could also say Darren Bent and Fabian Wilnis never had their temperament/attitude questioned. It's complexed isn't it - race and pre-conceived ideas certainly do play a part at times though, I think that is without doubt. |
Not sure if it happened on here but I've seen and heard Bent referred to as a headless chicken by some sets of fans. You don't score the goals he did if you don't make intelligent runs, and again the criticism contains lazy stereotyping about intelligence. Fabian Wilnis' hatred for Norwich meant he avoided any such stereotyping. I don't think there's any doubt that stock criticisms of black players tend to be markedly different in character and often don't really bear any scrutiny before falling apart. | |
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| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 19:24 - Jun 8 with 2608 views | SouthBucksBlue |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 13:51 - Jun 8 by Herbivore |
Not sure if it happened on here but I've seen and heard Bent referred to as a headless chicken by some sets of fans. You don't score the goals he did if you don't make intelligent runs, and again the criticism contains lazy stereotyping about intelligence. Fabian Wilnis' hatred for Norwich meant he avoided any such stereotyping. I don't think there's any doubt that stock criticisms of black players tend to be markedly different in character and often don't really bear any scrutiny before falling apart. |
If you’re suggesting that criticisms of certain players at Ipswich are/were primarily shaped by racial stereotyping then I don’t think that argument stands up to much scrutiny.
JET had a languid demeanour. Bent (Marcus) had a lazy demeanour. Nothing to do with being Black.
Hating Norwich trumps being Black so Willis was immune from criticism? The only criticism I can recall of Bent (Darren) was from ‘Arry after he missed an open goal at Spurs. Nouble just wasn’t very good.
Matt Richards, Sam Parkin, Jonathan Douglas aren’t Black. | | | |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 19:41 - Jun 8 with 2590 views | Enigma_Blue |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 13:51 - Jun 8 by Herbivore |
Not sure if it happened on here but I've seen and heard Bent referred to as a headless chicken by some sets of fans. You don't score the goals he did if you don't make intelligent runs, and again the criticism contains lazy stereotyping about intelligence. Fabian Wilnis' hatred for Norwich meant he avoided any such stereotyping. I don't think there's any doubt that stock criticisms of black players tend to be markedly different in character and often don't really bear any scrutiny before falling apart. |
I have heard fans label many different players as headless chickens not just black players.
Football intelligence is completely different to every day intelligence anyway.
Paul Merson for example was a very intelligent footballer but he is certainly not the brightest in the world. | | | |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 19:55 - Jun 8 with 2561 views | Herbivore |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 19:24 - Jun 8 by SouthBucksBlue |
If you’re suggesting that criticisms of certain players at Ipswich are/were primarily shaped by racial stereotyping then I don’t think that argument stands up to much scrutiny.
JET had a languid demeanour. Bent (Marcus) had a lazy demeanour. Nothing to do with being Black.
Hating Norwich trumps being Black so Willis was immune from criticism? The only criticism I can recall of Bent (Darren) was from ‘Arry after he missed an open goal at Spurs. Nouble just wasn’t very good.
Matt Richards, Sam Parkin, Jonathan Douglas aren’t Black. |
Yeah, I'm really not barking up the wrong tree at all. | |
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| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 19:57 - Jun 8 with 2552 views | Herbivore |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 19:41 - Jun 8 by Enigma_Blue |
I have heard fans label many different players as headless chickens not just black players.
Football intelligence is completely different to every day intelligence anyway.
Paul Merson for example was a very intelligent footballer but he is certainly not the brightest in the world. |
If you can't see that black players are often subject to particular kinds of criticism in comparison with white players then I think we fundamentally disagree. I've seen plenty of it and I think the refusal to see it shows how ingrained some of the unconscious biases are. | |
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| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 20:32 - Jun 8 with 2520 views | SouthBucksBlue |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 19:55 - Jun 8 by Herbivore |
Yeah, I'm really not barking up the wrong tree at all. |
Please explain what you mean by this? | | | |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 20:34 - Jun 8 with 2517 views | Herbivore |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 20:32 - Jun 8 by SouthBucksBlue |
Please explain what you mean by this? |
Re-read my posts in this thread. I've explained myself pretty clearly. You saying Bent looked lazy and JET looked languid isn't much of a counter argument for me. Probably have to agree to disagree on this one. | |
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| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 20:53 - Jun 8 with 2495 views | Enigma_Blue |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 19:57 - Jun 8 by Herbivore |
If you can't see that black players are often subject to particular kinds of criticism in comparison with white players then I think we fundamentally disagree. I've seen plenty of it and I think the refusal to see it shows how ingrained some of the unconscious biases are. |
In terms of chants about black players there is quite a bit of stereotyping both conscious and unconscious. But in terms of general criticism of their ability i can't agree with you based on what I have witnessed. [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 20:55]
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| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 20:56 - Jun 8 with 2486 views | Herbivore |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 20:53 - Jun 8 by Enigma_Blue |
In terms of chants about black players there is quite a bit of stereotyping both conscious and unconscious. But in terms of general criticism of their ability i can't agree with you based on what I have witnessed. [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 20:55]
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As I said, we'll have to agree to disagree. The kinds of criticisms levelled at Black players - here and elsewhere - are markedly different to the kinds of criticisms that tend it be levelled at white players. It's unconscious bias but it's very much there, even if you can't see it. | |
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| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 21:25 - Jun 8 with 2454 views | SouthBucksBlue |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 20:34 - Jun 8 by Herbivore |
Re-read my posts in this thread. I've explained myself pretty clearly. You saying Bent looked lazy and JET looked languid isn't much of a counter argument for me. Probably have to agree to disagree on this one. |
Ok. Can do, but are you seriously suggesting that Wilnis escaped criticism despite being Black because he was perceived as hating Norwich? | | | |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 21:33 - Jun 8 with 2445 views | Herbivore |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 21:25 - Jun 8 by SouthBucksBlue |
Ok. Can do, but are you seriously suggesting that Wilnis escaped criticism despite being Black because he was perceived as hating Norwich? |
It was a tongue in cheek reference to a famous chant about Fabian Wilnis, so no, I wasn't seriously suggesting that. | |
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| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 22:11 - Jun 8 with 2413 views | SouthBucksBlue |
| Craig Forrest with a good tweet thread here on 21:33 - Jun 8 by Herbivore |
It was a tongue in cheek reference to a famous chant about Fabian Wilnis, so no, I wasn't seriously suggesting that. |
Okay. Yes I do know the chant. | | | |
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