| Dolly's head scratching question of the day 16:11 - Feb 10 with 2102 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
At what point do we become conscious?
We don't really think of a woman's egg as being conscious, but perhaps the sperm is (because it travels in a certain direction, it has a goal). Perhaps, though, it's like an automaton, moving on instinct. In which case, does consciousness develop at the moment the sperm penetrates the egg, or slightly after?
At some point one sperm penetrated one egg... and several years later we get a fully developed Dollers. But at what point did the 'me,' or what I experience as me-ness, come into being? Obviously my brain was very underdeveloped at birth, which is why I can't remember the event, but I was at least conscious at that point. I had a desire for food - I recognised a thing as 'mother'. So presumably consciousness begins at some point in the womb?
I'm guessing the answer is 'it's impossible to know' but have there been studies which have at least attempted to determine when consciousness first comes into being? Not sure what point is the last where you can legally terminate a pregnancy, but has that been determined as the point where the embryo becomes conscious and moves over into the fetus stage? Or is it more about physiology rather than any kind of mental capacity? |  |
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| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 16:15 - Feb 10 with 1898 views | SpruceMoose |
"At some point one sperm penetrated one egg... and several years later we get a fully developed Dollers"
When is that scheduled to occur then mate?  |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 16:16 - Feb 10 with 1896 views | Keno |
about 6.40 most mornings
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| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 16:18 - Feb 10 with 1875 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 16:16 - Feb 10 by Keno |
about 6.40 most mornings
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After your first sip of coffee? | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 16:29 - Feb 10 with 1852 views | factual_blue |
We aren't conscious. |  |
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| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 16:36 - Feb 10 with 1842 views | Keno |
| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 16:18 - Feb 10 by The_Flashing_Smile |
After your first sip of coffee? |
First mug! | |
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| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 17:11 - Feb 10 with 1798 views | factual_blue |
| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 16:16 - Feb 10 by Keno |
about 6.40 most mornings
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If I wake up at 06.40, I go back to sleep for another couple of hours. | |
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| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 17:14 - Feb 10 with 1790 views | MattinLondon |
Was Dolly a previous username for you? |  | | |
| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 17:25 - Feb 10 with 1772 views | reusersfreekicks |
These days at full time |  | | |
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| No, it's her real name. (n/t) on 17:25 - Feb 10 with 1770 views | Bloots |
| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 17:14 - Feb 10 by MattinLondon |
Was Dolly a previous username for you? |
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| "The sooner he comes back the better, this place has been a disaster without him" - TWTD User (July 2025) |
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| Once you've had a pee, obviously...... on 17:32 - Feb 10 with 1760 views | Bloots |
| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 17:11 - Feb 10 by factual_blue |
If I wake up at 06.40, I go back to sleep for another couple of hours. |
....sometimes you even get out of bed for it. | |
| "The sooner he comes back the better, this place has been a disaster without him" - TWTD User (July 2025) |
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| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 17:39 - Feb 10 with 1751 views | WeWereZombies |
'At the minimalist extreme, then, we have the creatures who represent as little as possible: just enough to let the world warn them sometimes when they are beginning to do something wrong. Creatures who follow this policy engage in no planning. They plunge ahead, and if something starts hurting, they "know enough" to withdraw, but that is the best they can do.
The next step involves short range anticipation - for instance, the ability to duck incoming bricks...'
p. 178, 'Consciousness Explained', Daniel Dennett, Penguin, London, 1991 |  |
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| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 17:44 - Feb 10 with 1744 views | eireblue |
I know, I know, he is just going to spurn me again, but he just has that effect on me.
So out of interest, what would you do differently to a thing that was conscious vs one that wasn’t? |  | | |
| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 17:58 - Feb 10 with 1724 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 17:14 - Feb 10 by MattinLondon |
Was Dolly a previous username for you? |
Have you been to TWTD before? | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 18:00 - Feb 10 with 1722 views | jeera |
I'm not sure being force fed through a tube in your stomach qualifies as having a desire for food.
As for 'recognising' anything, such as a mother, wouldn't that initially be instinct? Where is the line between consciousness and instinct drawn?
I'm sure there will be studies on this kind of thing, not that I've looked. |  |
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| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 18:11 - Feb 10 with 1707 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 17:44 - Feb 10 by eireblue |
I know, I know, he is just going to spurn me again, but he just has that effect on me.
So out of interest, what would you do differently to a thing that was conscious vs one that wasn’t? |
I'd try to communicate with a conscious thing. But I fear we're straying from the question. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 18:15 - Feb 10 with 1703 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 18:00 - Feb 10 by jeera |
I'm not sure being force fed through a tube in your stomach qualifies as having a desire for food.
As for 'recognising' anything, such as a mother, wouldn't that initially be instinct? Where is the line between consciousness and instinct drawn?
I'm sure there will be studies on this kind of thing, not that I've looked. |
Re desire for food: You've misread. I was talking about after birth.
"Where is the line between consciousness and instinct drawn?" - that's a fantastic question and part of what I'm asking. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 18:26 - Feb 10 with 1689 views | WeWereZombies |
| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 18:15 - Feb 10 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Re desire for food: You've misread. I was talking about after birth.
"Where is the line between consciousness and instinct drawn?" - that's a fantastic question and part of what I'm asking. |
'From an evolutionary standpoint it clearly makes sense to have both automated behavioral programs that can be executed rapidly in a stereotyped and automated manner, and a slightly slower system that allows time for thinking and planning more complex behavior. This latter aspect may be one of the principal functions of consciousness. Other philosophers, however, have suggested that consciousness would not be necessary for any functional advantage in evolutionary processes.No one has given a causal explanation, they argue, of why it would not be possible for a functionally equivalent non-conscious organism (i.e., a philosophical zombie) to achieve the very same survival advantages as a conscious organism. If evolutionary processes are blind to the difference between function F being performed by conscious organism O and non-conscious organism O*, it is unclear what adaptive advantage consciousness could provide. As a result, an exaptive explanation of consciousness has gained favor with some theorists that posit consciousness did not evolve as an adaptation but was an exaptation arising as a consequence of other developments such as increases in brain size or cortical rearrangement'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_correlates_of_consciousness | |
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| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 19:08 - Feb 10 with 1670 views | eireblue |
| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 18:11 - Feb 10 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I'd try to communicate with a conscious thing. But I fear we're straying from the question. |
Taking a step back, is a property about an object relevant, if the presence that property has no impact on how that object interacts with the world?
If you were unable to communicate with something, would that mean it has no consciousness, and so what would you do differently to a thing you could communicate with vs a thing you could not? | | | |
| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 19:10 - Feb 10 with 1664 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 18:26 - Feb 10 by WeWereZombies |
'From an evolutionary standpoint it clearly makes sense to have both automated behavioral programs that can be executed rapidly in a stereotyped and automated manner, and a slightly slower system that allows time for thinking and planning more complex behavior. This latter aspect may be one of the principal functions of consciousness. Other philosophers, however, have suggested that consciousness would not be necessary for any functional advantage in evolutionary processes.No one has given a causal explanation, they argue, of why it would not be possible for a functionally equivalent non-conscious organism (i.e., a philosophical zombie) to achieve the very same survival advantages as a conscious organism. If evolutionary processes are blind to the difference between function F being performed by conscious organism O and non-conscious organism O*, it is unclear what adaptive advantage consciousness could provide. As a result, an exaptive explanation of consciousness has gained favor with some theorists that posit consciousness did not evolve as an adaptation but was an exaptation arising as a consequence of other developments such as increases in brain size or cortical rearrangement'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_correlates_of_consciousness |
It's an interesting but non-conclusive explanation of consciousness. If it doesn't give us an evolutionary advantage then I'm not sure how something so indescribable and complex could just develop for no reason. And anyway, surely all humans had consciousness, right back to cavemen.
The brain size development argument suggests things such as slugs aren't conscious. Which they surely are, just to a less intelligent degree.
Of course none of this answers at what point a being becomes conscious. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Some of the time, not all of the time on 19:13 - Feb 10 with 1657 views | factual_blue |
| Once you've had a pee, obviously...... on 17:32 - Feb 10 by Bloots |
....sometimes you even get out of bed for it. |
As Bob Dylan said | |
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| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 19:24 - Feb 10 with 1637 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 19:08 - Feb 10 by eireblue |
Taking a step back, is a property about an object relevant, if the presence that property has no impact on how that object interacts with the world?
If you were unable to communicate with something, would that mean it has no consciousness, and so what would you do differently to a thing you could communicate with vs a thing you could not? |
Well that's obvious. I can't communicate with the cat that comes round (other than do you want a treat/some cat milk) but it clearly has consciousness. I can observe it making decisions by itself - "will I go left or right", "shall I chase that bird."
I'd argue cats are conscious. As, possibly, would be aliens that we still can't communicate with, due to their communication structure being vastly different from ours. As per the film Arrival. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 20:00 - Feb 10 with 1614 views | Keno |
| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 17:11 - Feb 10 by factual_blue |
If I wake up at 06.40, I go back to sleep for another couple of hours. |
But now you are retired dont you sleep in even longer? | |
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| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 20:02 - Feb 10 with 1607 views | jeera |
| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 18:15 - Feb 10 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Re desire for food: You've misread. I was talking about after birth.
"Where is the line between consciousness and instinct drawn?" - that's a fantastic question and part of what I'm asking. |
Yes I did misread that bit, sorry. | |
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| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 20:34 - Feb 10 with 1591 views | factual_blue |
| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 20:00 - Feb 10 by Keno |
But now you are retired dont you sleep in even longer? |
Don't be silly.
I have to be up in time for my afternoon nap. | |
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| Dolly's head scratching question of the day on 23:01 - Feb 10 with 1543 views | Guthrum |
For a start, you have to define consciousness.
I tend (in an unscientific fashion) to consider it appears some time between the ages of around one and two, when a child begins to express themselves and communicate beyond the most basic survival needs, becomes properly mobile, a time when earliest memories are formed. Before that point, a human is so utterly dependent upon external care that they can hardly be called an independent person. But that probably represents sentience, rather than raw consciousness.
After all, at some level, even plants are conscious of their environment. And are able to communicate among themselves: https://apnews.com/article/6a1c8c6c4e15429d953a5b0f1829bc11 |  |
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