| Halfway through the Forde report … 08:55 - Jul 21 with 2051 views | Darth_Koont |
And I’m saddened and angered by the findings, which are mostly just confirmation of what we knew or should have known before if anyone was remotely concerned.
Labour Party HQ was/is an anti-democratic institution that needs a complete overhaul to get back to its mission of serving elected leaders and the membership. It’s a culture that is too often protecting its own political interests when it should have been largely neutral. The racism and sexism are clearly beyond the pale too so hope there are repercussions/lessons despite most of those people having left HQ.
It is a little sad that the report tends to “both sides” the situation. There are legitimate criticisms of Corbyn’s leadership office given they’re clearly learning on the job but that’s why a neutral HQ is needed to provide support. And of course we’re talking about a leadership team democratically elected by the members up against an unelected bureaucracy that’s meant to respect that mandate.
But both siding it is better than ignoring what went on. As has been the case so far.
As I read on, I’m not expecting my reaction to get any less fooking angry about the anti-democratic abuse. And it highlights the underlying lack of integrity of Starmer and those behind him who would lie to the membership during election and then look to move away from the membership on almost every single matter. This self-interested establishment politics is damaging to a British political system already rife with lies, a lack of values and a lack of representation.
Feck the Tories. Feck Labour. And feck our political media. We’re being scammed by this parody of a democracy. |  |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 09:12 - Jul 21 with 1951 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
This is almost as shocking as Sizewell getting the nod. Why do they even bother with the expense of public enquiries when we all know the outcome anyway? |  |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 10:14 - Jul 21 with 1859 views | Guthrum |
I haven't yet read the report, but there is a fundamental issue highlighted in your post: Namely that the main political parties, as they stand, have become organisations persisting for their own sake, mere vehicles to keep winning elections and retain power, largely divorced from ideology or principle. Centralised, sometimes authoritarian, bureaucratic monoliths, fuelled by tribalist introspection.
This is largely the fault of our present electoral system and the way it is conducted, particularly people's habit of voting for a particular party label, without considering policy or personnel - based upon circumstances which have not existed for decades (e.g. long-gone industrial heartlands), or may even be ancestral (e.g. "My parents always voted Tory/Labour").
The parties need tearing down into their constituent elements. A Corbynist party, a Blairite party, a One Nation Tory party, a free marketeer party and so on. Those could then form alliances and coalitions to run the country. They can do it in places like Germany, don't see why we find it so hard - apart from stubborn pride in our (actually not all that old) traditions, fear of change and desire amongst some to seek unchallenged power. |  |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 10:19 - Jul 21 with 1831 views | hype313 |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 10:14 - Jul 21 by Guthrum |
I haven't yet read the report, but there is a fundamental issue highlighted in your post: Namely that the main political parties, as they stand, have become organisations persisting for their own sake, mere vehicles to keep winning elections and retain power, largely divorced from ideology or principle. Centralised, sometimes authoritarian, bureaucratic monoliths, fuelled by tribalist introspection.
This is largely the fault of our present electoral system and the way it is conducted, particularly people's habit of voting for a particular party label, without considering policy or personnel - based upon circumstances which have not existed for decades (e.g. long-gone industrial heartlands), or may even be ancestral (e.g. "My parents always voted Tory/Labour").
The parties need tearing down into their constituent elements. A Corbynist party, a Blairite party, a One Nation Tory party, a free marketeer party and so on. Those could then form alliances and coalitions to run the country. They can do it in places like Germany, don't see why we find it so hard - apart from stubborn pride in our (actually not all that old) traditions, fear of change and desire amongst some to seek unchallenged power. |
Totally agree, especially given there are essentially 3 different parties within both Labour and Conservatives.
Which is why we keep having internal wars in each party as so many MP's are at different ends of the political spectrum within Labour and Conservative. |  |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 10:24 - Jul 21 with 1797 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 10:14 - Jul 21 by Guthrum |
I haven't yet read the report, but there is a fundamental issue highlighted in your post: Namely that the main political parties, as they stand, have become organisations persisting for their own sake, mere vehicles to keep winning elections and retain power, largely divorced from ideology or principle. Centralised, sometimes authoritarian, bureaucratic monoliths, fuelled by tribalist introspection.
This is largely the fault of our present electoral system and the way it is conducted, particularly people's habit of voting for a particular party label, without considering policy or personnel - based upon circumstances which have not existed for decades (e.g. long-gone industrial heartlands), or may even be ancestral (e.g. "My parents always voted Tory/Labour").
The parties need tearing down into their constituent elements. A Corbynist party, a Blairite party, a One Nation Tory party, a free marketeer party and so on. Those could then form alliances and coalitions to run the country. They can do it in places like Germany, don't see why we find it so hard - apart from stubborn pride in our (actually not all that old) traditions, fear of change and desire amongst some to seek unchallenged power. |
This could catch on:
A Shefki party
A Pabs party |  |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 10:26 - Jul 21 with 1799 views | Steve_M |
Are you ignoring and downplaying all the bits about anti-semitism in there as you've consistently done over the last few years?
It's an utter sh1tshow that doesn't show much of the Labour Party in a good light but selectively picking out the bits you want to is a repeated failing here. |  |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 10:27 - Jul 21 with 1770 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 10:14 - Jul 21 by Guthrum |
I haven't yet read the report, but there is a fundamental issue highlighted in your post: Namely that the main political parties, as they stand, have become organisations persisting for their own sake, mere vehicles to keep winning elections and retain power, largely divorced from ideology or principle. Centralised, sometimes authoritarian, bureaucratic monoliths, fuelled by tribalist introspection.
This is largely the fault of our present electoral system and the way it is conducted, particularly people's habit of voting for a particular party label, without considering policy or personnel - based upon circumstances which have not existed for decades (e.g. long-gone industrial heartlands), or may even be ancestral (e.g. "My parents always voted Tory/Labour").
The parties need tearing down into their constituent elements. A Corbynist party, a Blairite party, a One Nation Tory party, a free marketeer party and so on. Those could then form alliances and coalitions to run the country. They can do it in places like Germany, don't see why we find it so hard - apart from stubborn pride in our (actually not all that old) traditions, fear of change and desire amongst some to seek unchallenged power. |
Just to add. Another good example of disparate parties coming together to work collaboratively would be in the European Parliament. We get a taste of what could be here in Wales as the voting system does at least return an element of colatins and the need for consensus politics, but not as far as you get in some other European nations. | |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 10:33 - Jul 21 with 1715 views | Darth_Koont |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 10:26 - Jul 21 by Steve_M |
Are you ignoring and downplaying all the bits about anti-semitism in there as you've consistently done over the last few years?
It's an utter sh1tshow that doesn't show much of the Labour Party in a good light but selectively picking out the bits you want to is a repeated failing here. |
Feel free to add this to yesterday’s thread that’s more specifically about that, Steve.
Otherwise, we’ll derail this thread. You think I’m selective, I think you are. | |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 10:33 - Jul 21 with 1710 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 10:26 - Jul 21 by Steve_M |
Are you ignoring and downplaying all the bits about anti-semitism in there as you've consistently done over the last few years?
It's an utter sh1tshow that doesn't show much of the Labour Party in a good light but selectively picking out the bits you want to is a repeated failing here. |
*Settles down for round 3,519*
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 10:37 - Jul 21 with 1661 views | Darth_Koont |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 10:14 - Jul 21 by Guthrum |
I haven't yet read the report, but there is a fundamental issue highlighted in your post: Namely that the main political parties, as they stand, have become organisations persisting for their own sake, mere vehicles to keep winning elections and retain power, largely divorced from ideology or principle. Centralised, sometimes authoritarian, bureaucratic monoliths, fuelled by tribalist introspection.
This is largely the fault of our present electoral system and the way it is conducted, particularly people's habit of voting for a particular party label, without considering policy or personnel - based upon circumstances which have not existed for decades (e.g. long-gone industrial heartlands), or may even be ancestral (e.g. "My parents always voted Tory/Labour").
The parties need tearing down into their constituent elements. A Corbynist party, a Blairite party, a One Nation Tory party, a free marketeer party and so on. Those could then form alliances and coalitions to run the country. They can do it in places like Germany, don't see why we find it so hard - apart from stubborn pride in our (actually not all that old) traditions, fear of change and desire amongst some to seek unchallenged power. |
Agreed.
Democratic reform starts with electoral reform as the current system just reinforces the hoarding of power, influence and money. All of which is essentially at odds with a modern representative democracy. | |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 10:44 - Jul 21 with 1615 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 10:26 - Jul 21 by Steve_M |
Are you ignoring and downplaying all the bits about anti-semitism in there as you've consistently done over the last few years?
It's an utter sh1tshow that doesn't show much of the Labour Party in a good light but selectively picking out the bits you want to is a repeated failing here. |
Out of interest did you post this on GB's thread too ? | |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 11:03 - Jul 21 with 1560 views | mylittletown |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 10:14 - Jul 21 by Guthrum |
I haven't yet read the report, but there is a fundamental issue highlighted in your post: Namely that the main political parties, as they stand, have become organisations persisting for their own sake, mere vehicles to keep winning elections and retain power, largely divorced from ideology or principle. Centralised, sometimes authoritarian, bureaucratic monoliths, fuelled by tribalist introspection.
This is largely the fault of our present electoral system and the way it is conducted, particularly people's habit of voting for a particular party label, without considering policy or personnel - based upon circumstances which have not existed for decades (e.g. long-gone industrial heartlands), or may even be ancestral (e.g. "My parents always voted Tory/Labour").
The parties need tearing down into their constituent elements. A Corbynist party, a Blairite party, a One Nation Tory party, a free marketeer party and so on. Those could then form alliances and coalitions to run the country. They can do it in places like Germany, don't see why we find it so hard - apart from stubborn pride in our (actually not all that old) traditions, fear of change and desire amongst some to seek unchallenged power. |
Spot on.
Most successful societies and/or economies are either largely run by coalitions, ie Scandinavian countries, Germany, Japan (to an extent), or have a powerful elected second house which can stop the the other elected house from pushing through badly thought out policies, thus resulting in negotiated and broadly appealing policies.
First past the post is a total disaster, an unelected second house with no real power is undemocratic and mostly pointless, and then you have the monarchy.
Given that our country has been in comparative economic decline against its peers/close rivals for over a century, we are the least productive economy in Northern Europe, the gap between haves and have nots is increasing all the time, and the OECD found that England is the only country in the developed world in which adults aged 55-to-65 perform better in literacy and numeracy than those aged 16-to-24, I can't understand why anyone thinks that our current system is remotely efficient or justifiable. [Post edited 21 Jul 2022 11:06]
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 11:04 - Jul 21 with 1556 views | unbelievablue |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 10:44 - Jul 21 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Out of interest did you post this on GB's thread too ? |
GB's? Duno whether to be flattered or offended. |  |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 11:07 - Jul 21 with 1509 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 11:04 - Jul 21 by unbelievablue |
GB's? Duno whether to be flattered or offended. |
Oh yeah.....whoops!!
Edit....probably explains why Steve hadn't noticed it! [Post edited 21 Jul 2022 11:45]
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 11:09 - Jul 21 with 1495 views | unbelievablue |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 10:14 - Jul 21 by Guthrum |
I haven't yet read the report, but there is a fundamental issue highlighted in your post: Namely that the main political parties, as they stand, have become organisations persisting for their own sake, mere vehicles to keep winning elections and retain power, largely divorced from ideology or principle. Centralised, sometimes authoritarian, bureaucratic monoliths, fuelled by tribalist introspection.
This is largely the fault of our present electoral system and the way it is conducted, particularly people's habit of voting for a particular party label, without considering policy or personnel - based upon circumstances which have not existed for decades (e.g. long-gone industrial heartlands), or may even be ancestral (e.g. "My parents always voted Tory/Labour").
The parties need tearing down into their constituent elements. A Corbynist party, a Blairite party, a One Nation Tory party, a free marketeer party and so on. Those could then form alliances and coalitions to run the country. They can do it in places like Germany, don't see why we find it so hard - apart from stubborn pride in our (actually not all that old) traditions, fear of change and desire amongst some to seek unchallenged power. |
As always, right on. Germany is a good comparison.
Our current political system is utterly dominated by the Conservative and Labour parties, which make up 557 of the 650 elected MPs.
In Germany, there are 736 seats, distributed thus:
SPD 206
CDU/CSU 197
Green Alliance 118
FDP 92
AfD 80
The Left Party 39
4 Independents | |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 13:10 - Jul 22 with 1166 views | Darth_Koont |
Finished it. Not much to add to the original post. Just reinforced anger.
However, in the last couple of days the response of the media has been shockingly absent and partisan where you do find a response Imagine if a Corbynite factional bureaucracy had obstructed Starmer and also been guilty of widespread sexist and racist behaviour? It would rightly have been front-page news. Instead, churnalists like Paul Waugh have just copied and pasted Labour right spin and not even the report itself to try and bury it.
We have an utterly rotten, corrupt and broken democracy if even the opposition are doing the same thing as the Tories and their supporters – and our client journalism media just doesn’t see any problem with that. | |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 13:14 - Jul 22 with 1150 views | unbelievablue |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 13:10 - Jul 22 by Darth_Koont |
Finished it. Not much to add to the original post. Just reinforced anger.
However, in the last couple of days the response of the media has been shockingly absent and partisan where you do find a response Imagine if a Corbynite factional bureaucracy had obstructed Starmer and also been guilty of widespread sexist and racist behaviour? It would rightly have been front-page news. Instead, churnalists like Paul Waugh have just copied and pasted Labour right spin and not even the report itself to try and bury it.
We have an utterly rotten, corrupt and broken democracy if even the opposition are doing the same thing as the Tories and their supporters – and our client journalism media just doesn’t see any problem with that. |
What do you think of this conclusion?
Both sides used antisemitism as a weapon, with some denying its existence and others using it primarily as a means to attack Corbyn.
Some anti-Corbyn elements of the party seized on antisemitism as a way to attack Jeremy Corbyn, and his supporters saw it simply as an attack on the leader and his faction — with both ‘sides’ thus weaponising the issue and failing to recognise the seriousness of antisemitism, its effect on Jewish communities and on the moral and political standing of the party. | |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 13:19 - Jul 22 with 1126 views | pointofblue |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 13:14 - Jul 22 by unbelievablue |
What do you think of this conclusion?
Both sides used antisemitism as a weapon, with some denying its existence and others using it primarily as a means to attack Corbyn.
Some anti-Corbyn elements of the party seized on antisemitism as a way to attack Jeremy Corbyn, and his supporters saw it simply as an attack on the leader and his faction — with both ‘sides’ thus weaponising the issue and failing to recognise the seriousness of antisemitism, its effect on Jewish communities and on the moral and political standing of the party. |
I can only think that left wing media are gambling on a right wing leaning Labour still being better than the Conservatives, and they don’t want to affect their chances via ‘friendly’ fire. |  |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 13:34 - Jul 22 with 1093 views | Darth_Koont |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 13:14 - Jul 22 by unbelievablue |
What do you think of this conclusion?
Both sides used antisemitism as a weapon, with some denying its existence and others using it primarily as a means to attack Corbyn.
Some anti-Corbyn elements of the party seized on antisemitism as a way to attack Jeremy Corbyn, and his supporters saw it simply as an attack on the leader and his faction — with both ‘sides’ thus weaponising the issue and failing to recognise the seriousness of antisemitism, its effect on Jewish communities and on the moral and political standing of the party. |
“Both sides used antisemitism as a weapon, with some denying its existence and others using it primarily as a means to attack Corbyn.“
This is part of the “both sidesing” that is more than a little unbalanced in the report. As I said, it’s better to at least recognise the weaponisation which was denied by almost everyone. But within the leadership team and supporters in the PLP and unions etc. there was never any denialism of antisemitism within the Labour Party. Nor that the complaints re: Labour members were made up. Conflating that with wider supporters who outright denied there was antisemitism (they certainly existed but they weren’t given any credence rather they were corrected) obscures that central truth.
But on the other hand there are countless examples of MPs, party functionaries and activists going the other way to wave through and embellish the worst accusations re: numbers of complaints and the suggested antisemitism of individuals like Corbyn himself.
The Forde report accepts that many of the complaints weren’t even Labour members. But that was barely covered at the time. E.g. Margaret Hodge’s dossier of 200 complaints of which only 20 were Labour members.
This is the gap exploited by many of the accusers where even suggesting we address the actual complaints or debunk the silliest accusations was seen as denying that antisemitism existed. I’ve had the same thrown at me on here despite never saying anything like that. Nor would I.
Feck those who deny antisemitism and those who weaponise it for petty politics. | |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 13:48 - Jul 22 with 1011 views | nodge_blue |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 13:10 - Jul 22 by Darth_Koont |
Finished it. Not much to add to the original post. Just reinforced anger.
However, in the last couple of days the response of the media has been shockingly absent and partisan where you do find a response Imagine if a Corbynite factional bureaucracy had obstructed Starmer and also been guilty of widespread sexist and racist behaviour? It would rightly have been front-page news. Instead, churnalists like Paul Waugh have just copied and pasted Labour right spin and not even the report itself to try and bury it.
We have an utterly rotten, corrupt and broken democracy if even the opposition are doing the same thing as the Tories and their supporters – and our client journalism media just doesn’t see any problem with that. |
I only read the short highlights on the guardian website, but they didnt say the sexist and racist behaviour was restricted to the Anti Corbyn faction.
"We find that the messages on the SMT [senior management team] WhatsApp reveal deplorably factional and insensitive, and at times discriminatory, attitudes expressed by many of the party’s most senior staff. The substance of the quoted messages is concerning — and totally inappropriate from senior staff of a purportedly progressive political party"
It was also noted that JC declined to be interviewed. |  |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 13:53 - Jul 22 with 965 views | Darth_Koont |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 13:48 - Jul 22 by nodge_blue |
I only read the short highlights on the guardian website, but they didnt say the sexist and racist behaviour was restricted to the Anti Corbyn faction.
"We find that the messages on the SMT [senior management team] WhatsApp reveal deplorably factional and insensitive, and at times discriminatory, attitudes expressed by many of the party’s most senior staff. The substance of the quoted messages is concerning — and totally inappropriate from senior staff of a purportedly progressive political party"
It was also noted that JC declined to be interviewed. |
The SMT weren’t Corbynite. We’re talking senior Labour HQ made up of staff recruited during the Blair years and after.
Oh and the Guardian has been shyte on this since day one.
I’ll admit Corbyn could have given evidence. But he wasn’t directly involved in the internal machine so a bit academic. [Post edited 22 Jul 2022 13:56]
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 14:09 - Jul 22 with 908 views | nodge_blue |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 13:53 - Jul 22 by Darth_Koont |
The SMT weren’t Corbynite. We’re talking senior Labour HQ made up of staff recruited during the Blair years and after.
Oh and the Guardian has been shyte on this since day one.
I’ll admit Corbyn could have given evidence. But he wasn’t directly involved in the internal machine so a bit academic. [Post edited 22 Jul 2022 13:56]
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Ok. Fair enough. I had assumed the SMT would have been the shadow cabinet rather than the HQ bunch. | |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 14:19 - Jul 22 with 879 views | Darth_Koont |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 14:09 - Jul 22 by nodge_blue |
Ok. Fair enough. I had assumed the SMT would have been the shadow cabinet rather than the HQ bunch. |
Yeah, it’s like the Labour Party civil service meant to run the party machine and support the leader. Most of them were already identified and drummed out in 2018.
The Forde report is just confirmation of what was going on but was ignored by the media at the time and still now by the looks of it. | |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 14:58 - Jul 22 with 804 views | nodge_blue |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 14:19 - Jul 22 by Darth_Koont |
Yeah, it’s like the Labour Party civil service meant to run the party machine and support the leader. Most of them were already identified and drummed out in 2018.
The Forde report is just confirmation of what was going on but was ignored by the media at the time and still now by the looks of it. |
It's release coinciding with a major heatwave taking all the news, was I guess just coincidental.
It is depressing how lacking we are in good politicians. The Tories seem to hate each other. Truss finger pointing at Rishi for an hour the other night on tv and then saying she's running a positive campaign the day after.
Tax cuts that must impact services if they come. Services that aren't even functioning now.
But on this report, it looks like both JC and the HQ lot were pretty dysfunctional.
I may be one of the few people holding out for KS to actually be good at policy and intelligent enough to provide a credible PM. | |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 15:18 - Jul 22 with 756 views | Darth_Koont |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 14:58 - Jul 22 by nodge_blue |
It's release coinciding with a major heatwave taking all the news, was I guess just coincidental.
It is depressing how lacking we are in good politicians. The Tories seem to hate each other. Truss finger pointing at Rishi for an hour the other night on tv and then saying she's running a positive campaign the day after.
Tax cuts that must impact services if they come. Services that aren't even functioning now.
But on this report, it looks like both JC and the HQ lot were pretty dysfunctional.
I may be one of the few people holding out for KS to actually be good at policy and intelligent enough to provide a credible PM. |
Unfortunately, almost everything I’ve seen from Starmer and his cabinet make them look untrustworthy and/or totally inadequate in their values/policies.
It’s easier to see them as shoring up the left side of the establishment and taking their turn to get paid. Rather than the agents of any much-needed change.
Of course, they*should still be better than the Tories. But the UK needs an awful lot better than that and can’t afford underlying problems to be ignored by a different set of politicians. | |
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| Halfway through the Forde report … on 20:05 - Jul 22 with 639 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Halfway through the Forde report … on 10:24 - Jul 21 by Swansea_Blue |
This could catch on:
A Shefki party
A Pabs party |
#teamshefki
Mainly because he didn't fail to score any goals in his Premier League appearances.
Unlike Pablo, which is the direct cause of our relegation and every subsequent nightmare...
#matchstruckfuselitstepbackwatchthefireworks | | | |
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