| A long read, but damned worth it on 07:47 - Aug 27 with 2844 views | BlueBadger |
Every Tory minister who's taken money from one of Putin's mates, every craven gammon apologist lauding him as a 'strong' leader, every conspiracy nut blaming NATO - all have blood on their hands. |  |
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| A long read, but damned worth it on 07:55 - Aug 27 with 2815 views | IpswichKnight |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 07:47 - Aug 27 by BlueBadger |
Every Tory minister who's taken money from one of Putin's mates, every craven gammon apologist lauding him as a 'strong' leader, every conspiracy nut blaming NATO - all have blood on their hands. |
Interesting read especially the bit where European countries intelligence agencies refused to believe what us and US were telling them. I don’t think the US picked this all up from signal intelligence I do think they have someone high up in the Russian military. |  | | |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 09:04 - Aug 27 with 2703 views | Guthrum |
While we in the West have been unwise in put ourselves too much in reliance on Russian energy (and some too greedy for political donations), the blame for this situation lies at the feet of one man alone - Vladimir Putin. He is the one who decided to launch a violent invasion of a neighbouring sovreign country. |  |
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| A long read, but damned worth it on 09:11 - Aug 27 with 2691 views | NewcyBlue |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 09:04 - Aug 27 by Guthrum |
While we in the West have been unwise in put ourselves too much in reliance on Russian energy (and some too greedy for political donations), the blame for this situation lies at the feet of one man alone - Vladimir Putin. He is the one who decided to launch a violent invasion of a neighbouring sovreign country. |
I don’t disagree. However, the fact that it seems that the West held off on providing weapons in a decent amount during the early part of the invasion until it was known how the invasion would pan out is pretty awful.
It’s peoples lives that were gambled with. It leaves a pretty sour taste. |  |
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| A long read, but damned worth it on 09:43 - Aug 27 with 2586 views | Guthrum |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 09:11 - Aug 27 by NewcyBlue |
I don’t disagree. However, the fact that it seems that the West held off on providing weapons in a decent amount during the early part of the invasion until it was known how the invasion would pan out is pretty awful.
It’s peoples lives that were gambled with. It leaves a pretty sour taste. |
That's not quite true. Various countries were ramping up deliveries of weaponry and equipment in the weeks leading up to the invasion. Mainly of portable anti-tank weapons. That may not have been how it felt on the front line, tho.
Pretty much everybody expected the invasion to be over in about four days*. No point in putting valuable (and technologically sensitive) equipment into the country only for it to fall into the hands of the Russians. Things like artillery shells are a different calibre to what NATO uses, so we didn't have the stuff to send.
There are all sorts of complications, even down to the fact that Ukraine uses a different gauge of railway track to the rest of Europe (the same one as Russia, 1.52m rather than 1.435m), so trains cannot be run straight into the country. All goods have to be transhipped at the border.
* Nobody expected the Russian military to be quite so incompetent and poorly-led as it turned out to be. Which is what enabled the heroic Ukrainian resistance to succeed. | |
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| A long read, but damned worth it on 09:52 - Aug 27 with 2554 views | IpswichKnight |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 09:43 - Aug 27 by Guthrum |
That's not quite true. Various countries were ramping up deliveries of weaponry and equipment in the weeks leading up to the invasion. Mainly of portable anti-tank weapons. That may not have been how it felt on the front line, tho.
Pretty much everybody expected the invasion to be over in about four days*. No point in putting valuable (and technologically sensitive) equipment into the country only for it to fall into the hands of the Russians. Things like artillery shells are a different calibre to what NATO uses, so we didn't have the stuff to send.
There are all sorts of complications, even down to the fact that Ukraine uses a different gauge of railway track to the rest of Europe (the same one as Russia, 1.52m rather than 1.435m), so trains cannot be run straight into the country. All goods have to be transhipped at the border.
* Nobody expected the Russian military to be quite so incompetent and poorly-led as it turned out to be. Which is what enabled the heroic Ukrainian resistance to succeed. |
Agree with you Guthrum, signal intelligence flights from UK/US/Sweden and French aircraft also made a difference allowing Ukraine to know where Russian assets were and heading to allowing Ukraine to be agile in its defences and not waste manpower and weapons on areas where there was no threat.
No one could see how ineffective and incompetent Russian forces were against a well drilled and well stocked modern Army. | | | |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 09:56 - Aug 27 with 2537 views | NewcyBlue |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 09:43 - Aug 27 by Guthrum |
That's not quite true. Various countries were ramping up deliveries of weaponry and equipment in the weeks leading up to the invasion. Mainly of portable anti-tank weapons. That may not have been how it felt on the front line, tho.
Pretty much everybody expected the invasion to be over in about four days*. No point in putting valuable (and technologically sensitive) equipment into the country only for it to fall into the hands of the Russians. Things like artillery shells are a different calibre to what NATO uses, so we didn't have the stuff to send.
There are all sorts of complications, even down to the fact that Ukraine uses a different gauge of railway track to the rest of Europe (the same one as Russia, 1.52m rather than 1.435m), so trains cannot be run straight into the country. All goods have to be transhipped at the border.
* Nobody expected the Russian military to be quite so incompetent and poorly-led as it turned out to be. Which is what enabled the heroic Ukrainian resistance to succeed. |
I wonder what the human cost of the initial hesitance will be?
If we keep looking at the possible loss of weapons/technology as reasons for delaying further support is pretty shameful.
From the article
The head of the National Security and Defense Council, Oleksiy Danilov, had laid out the situation for the president. “The simple issue is that all of our partners are telling us it will be very hard for us, that we have almost zero chances to succeed,” Danilov told him.
“We will not receive much support in the first days, because they will look at how we are able to defend the country,” he continued. “Maybe they don’t want a large amount of weapons to get in the hands of the Russians.”
How can that be viewed as anything other than shameful to hedge bets on human lives?
I know that we sent weapons and have provided training since the Crimea annexation, but we have let Ukrainians down. | |
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| A long read, but damned worth it on 11:14 - Aug 27 with 2384 views | GlasgowBlue |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 09:11 - Aug 27 by NewcyBlue |
I don’t disagree. However, the fact that it seems that the West held off on providing weapons in a decent amount during the early part of the invasion until it was known how the invasion would pan out is pretty awful.
It’s peoples lives that were gambled with. It leaves a pretty sour taste. |
The UK were arming Ukraine before the invasion
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/17/uk-supplying-ukraine-with-anti-
The US and UK have been arming and training Ukrainian troops pretty much non stop since the 2014 invasion of Crimea. |  |
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| A long read, but damned worth it on 11:20 - Aug 27 with 2382 views | Plums |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 09:43 - Aug 27 by Guthrum |
That's not quite true. Various countries were ramping up deliveries of weaponry and equipment in the weeks leading up to the invasion. Mainly of portable anti-tank weapons. That may not have been how it felt on the front line, tho.
Pretty much everybody expected the invasion to be over in about four days*. No point in putting valuable (and technologically sensitive) equipment into the country only for it to fall into the hands of the Russians. Things like artillery shells are a different calibre to what NATO uses, so we didn't have the stuff to send.
There are all sorts of complications, even down to the fact that Ukraine uses a different gauge of railway track to the rest of Europe (the same one as Russia, 1.52m rather than 1.435m), so trains cannot be run straight into the country. All goods have to be transhipped at the border.
* Nobody expected the Russian military to be quite so incompetent and poorly-led as it turned out to be. Which is what enabled the heroic Ukrainian resistance to succeed. |
I listened to a really good pod on the background yesterday - I highly recommend it:
[Post edited 27 Aug 2022 11:24]
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| A long read, but damned worth it on 11:30 - Aug 27 with 2354 views | Zapers |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 09:43 - Aug 27 by Guthrum |
That's not quite true. Various countries were ramping up deliveries of weaponry and equipment in the weeks leading up to the invasion. Mainly of portable anti-tank weapons. That may not have been how it felt on the front line, tho.
Pretty much everybody expected the invasion to be over in about four days*. No point in putting valuable (and technologically sensitive) equipment into the country only for it to fall into the hands of the Russians. Things like artillery shells are a different calibre to what NATO uses, so we didn't have the stuff to send.
There are all sorts of complications, even down to the fact that Ukraine uses a different gauge of railway track to the rest of Europe (the same one as Russia, 1.52m rather than 1.435m), so trains cannot be run straight into the country. All goods have to be transhipped at the border.
* Nobody expected the Russian military to be quite so incompetent and poorly-led as it turned out to be. Which is what enabled the heroic Ukrainian resistance to succeed. |
Thank goodness we have one person who continues to speak sense. | | | |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 11:33 - Aug 27 with 2339 views | NewcyBlue |
I know, I said that in the post above yours. | |
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| A long read, but damned worth it on 12:06 - Aug 27 with 2283 views | Trequartista |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 09:11 - Aug 27 by NewcyBlue |
I don’t disagree. However, the fact that it seems that the West held off on providing weapons in a decent amount during the early part of the invasion until it was known how the invasion would pan out is pretty awful.
It’s peoples lives that were gambled with. It leaves a pretty sour taste. |
Large swathes of the world aren't even condemning Russia never mind providing weapons for Ukraine. Perhaps if they did, Putin wouldn't be so emboldened, and this would all be over. And you're blaming the West for not diving in and risking WW3? |  |
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| A long read, but damned worth it on 13:10 - Aug 27 with 2190 views | NewcyBlue |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 12:06 - Aug 27 by Trequartista |
Large swathes of the world aren't even condemning Russia never mind providing weapons for Ukraine. Perhaps if they did, Putin wouldn't be so emboldened, and this would all be over. And you're blaming the West for not diving in and risking WW3? |
No, I’m saying we all have a collective part to play. We effectively left Ukrainians to their fate expecting a quick capitulation which when it didn’t happen we started to provide more support.
As I said above, I know the U.K. has been providing training and weapons since the Crimean annexation. I know the U.K. provided intelligence and updates to the Ukrainian government in the lead up to this war. Just because the US and U.K. has done something, doesn’t mean we cannot be apologetic for the West as a whole.
I’ve got Ukrainian friends and colleagues and the stuff I have heard is harrowing. To have not even given them a chance whilst Europe bought up gas and stuffed their hands in their pockets.
The bravery of the Ukrainian leadership and people is astounding. | |
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| A long read, but damned worth it on 14:12 - Aug 27 with 2110 views | Lord_Lucan |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 07:47 - Aug 27 by BlueBadger |
Every Tory minister who's taken money from one of Putin's mates, every craven gammon apologist lauding him as a 'strong' leader, every conspiracy nut blaming NATO - all have blood on their hands. |
He is a strong leader.
He may be a nutter - but he is a strong leader. |  |
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| A long read, but damned worth it on 19:28 - Aug 27 with 1897 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 14:12 - Aug 27 by Lord_Lucan |
He is a strong leader.
He may be a nutter - but he is a strong leader. |
Idi Amin was a strong ruler. |  |
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| A long read, but damned worth it on 19:34 - Aug 27 with 1864 views | Lord_Lucan |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 19:28 - Aug 27 by You_Bloo_Right |
Idi Amin was a strong ruler. |
You make a very valid point, maybe I should have said ruler.......
......but I think you know what I meant, ditto Kim Jung Whatsisname | |
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| A long read, but damned worth it on 22:45 - Aug 28 with 1527 views | BlueBadger |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 14:12 - Aug 27 by Lord_Lucan |
He is a strong leader.
He may be a nutter - but he is a strong leader. |
Not really. 'Strong' leaders don't pander to petty bigotry because they, can tell petty bigots to f**k off and not have it endanger their position. Weak leaders seeking to shore up their position by picking on on easy targets, however... [Post edited 29 Aug 2022 11:24]
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 22:49 - Aug 28 with 1491 views | BlueBadger |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 14:12 - Aug 27 by Lord_Lucan |
He is a strong leader.
He may be a nutter - but he is a strong leader. |
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| A long read, but damned worth it on 23:00 - Aug 28 with 1480 views | jeera |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 22:45 - Aug 28 by BlueBadger |
Not really. 'Strong' leaders don't pander to petty bigotry because they, can tell petty bigots to f**k off and not have it endanger their position. Weak leaders seeking to shore up their position by picking on on easy targets, however... [Post edited 29 Aug 2022 11:24]
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He's a coward and a bully.
He doesn't even try to hide it anymore. |  |
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| A long read, but damned worth it on 10:26 - Aug 29 with 1249 views | Swansea_Blue |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 09:56 - Aug 27 by NewcyBlue |
I wonder what the human cost of the initial hesitance will be?
If we keep looking at the possible loss of weapons/technology as reasons for delaying further support is pretty shameful.
From the article
The head of the National Security and Defense Council, Oleksiy Danilov, had laid out the situation for the president. “The simple issue is that all of our partners are telling us it will be very hard for us, that we have almost zero chances to succeed,” Danilov told him.
“We will not receive much support in the first days, because they will look at how we are able to defend the country,” he continued. “Maybe they don’t want a large amount of weapons to get in the hands of the Russians.”
How can that be viewed as anything other than shameful to hedge bets on human lives?
I know that we sent weapons and have provided training since the Crimea annexation, but we have let Ukrainians down. |
It’s almost as if our support is seen as an investment - not just literally with the expensive/militarily sensitive equipment, but also politically. We needed to make sure neither of those things could have been potentially compromised before fully committing.
It’s hard to see how any of that is more important than saving lives against an invading aggressor, but maybe I’m being overly cynical and idealistic. Put yourself in the shoes of Ukrainians though and they must be hugely angry/disappointed/perplexed that more support COULD have been provided, and quicker, but wasn’t. |  |
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| A long read, but damned worth it on 10:38 - Aug 29 with 1233 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| A long read, but damned worth it on 10:26 - Aug 29 by Swansea_Blue |
It’s almost as if our support is seen as an investment - not just literally with the expensive/militarily sensitive equipment, but also politically. We needed to make sure neither of those things could have been potentially compromised before fully committing.
It’s hard to see how any of that is more important than saving lives against an invading aggressor, but maybe I’m being overly cynical and idealistic. Put yourself in the shoes of Ukrainians though and they must be hugely angry/disappointed/perplexed that more support COULD have been provided, and quicker, but wasn’t. |
Fascinating read thanks for sharing.
Not aimed at anyone in particular- I know it’s fashionable to bash the UK and the US, especially at a time when we have such a reprehensible government. But both countries have been actively arming and training the Ukrainian forces since 2014. It’s likely this played a big part in the failure of the Russian attempt for take Kiev (as well as of course the amazing morale and sacrifice of the Ukrainians themselves). Since then we’ve supplied incredibly sophisticated weaponry and currently have Ukrainian volunteers training in Kent. Meanwhile the Germans put their own industry first, and sent a batch of mouldy missiles… | | | |
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