| Energy bills 12:48 - Sep 6 with 2383 views | nodge_blue |
If they get frozen at the current level, the govt borrows 80 billion to do that, what happens next Winter when Russia still hasn't turned on the gas?
Will we get Gas from other sources at a cheaper rate because we've been able to negotiate for them in advance - rather than they've already been promised to other countries for this Winter?
If not and we are faced with another 80 billion next Winter then its clearly not sustainable.
And what a huge amount of money used not on schools, hospitals etc - just literally going up in hot air.
I don't think theres much choice but its all so sad and maddening that we and other countries are having to now waste money because of Putin and his war. |  |
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| Energy bills on 12:59 - Sep 6 with 1884 views | mylittletown |
I suspect that a behind the scenes ultimatum will be issued to places like Saudi Arabia, and I fully expect that Venezuela will be allowed to rejoin the human race and will receive huge financial aid to rebuild their oil industry. |  | | |
| Energy bills on 14:36 - Sep 6 with 1743 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
“ I don't think theres much choice but its all so sad and maddening that we and other countries are having to now waste money because of Putin and his war.”
If only we didn’t have weak-minded politicians who enabled him by taking donations from his pals, laundering money in the London property market, and turning a blind eye when he invaded Crimea. [Post edited 6 Sep 2022 14:36]
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| Energy bills on 14:44 - Sep 6 with 1717 views | Ryorry |
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| Energy bills on 14:48 - Sep 6 with 1692 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Energy bills on 14:44 - Sep 6 by Ryorry |
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“ German households pay more for electricity than any other country in the EU, and 4.2 million German households will see their gas bills rise by an average 62.3% in 2022 according to reporting by Reuters.” | | | |
| Energy bills on 15:20 - Sep 6 with 1619 views | bluelagos |
So the forecast prices in the medium term are lower than today, presumably because more supply will online and/or demand will ease off.
What gets me is the forecast £100Bn will likely basically be a loan to power suppliers which will then be repaid through higher bills over 20/30 years. So the consumer still pays.
So all those teenagers who now have to pay for tuition fees - well they'll spend 20 years paying the heating to keep Granny warm this winter. God forbid the power generators should contribute from their super normal profits... |  |
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| Energy bills on 15:29 - Sep 6 with 1588 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Energy bills on 15:20 - Sep 6 by bluelagos |
So the forecast prices in the medium term are lower than today, presumably because more supply will online and/or demand will ease off.
What gets me is the forecast £100Bn will likely basically be a loan to power suppliers which will then be repaid through higher bills over 20/30 years. So the consumer still pays.
So all those teenagers who now have to pay for tuition fees - well they'll spend 20 years paying the heating to keep Granny warm this winter. God forbid the power generators should contribute from their super normal profits... |
We have introduced the windfall tax, but you can only do it on UK profit, hence the relatively low £5bn:
https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-lawmakers-approve-windfall-tax-oil-gas-produ
Governments all across Europe are doing the same:
https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/europe-tries-shore-up-power-firms-with-bi
An estimated £1trn has been spent to prop up supply companies with funds due to the wholesale cost quadrupling.
You won’t find any threads where I’ve defended this government, but their options are limited, and this policy is in line with what’s being done in Europe. Ultimately, not doing so would cost a lot more. [Post edited 6 Sep 2022 15:34]
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| Energy bills on 15:31 - Sep 6 with 1586 views | Cotty |
Just think, none of this would be a problem if our governments had taken climate change seriously over the last 25 years. This is a situation also caused in part by fossil fuel lobbyists. |  | | |
| Energy bills on 15:35 - Sep 6 with 1565 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Energy bills on 15:31 - Sep 6 by Cotty |
Just think, none of this would be a problem if our governments had taken climate change seriously over the last 25 years. This is a situation also caused in part by fossil fuel lobbyists. |
Not only that but the atrocious regimes that fossil fuels have propped up, Russia, Iran, Venezuela, Saudi etc… | | | |
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| Energy bills on 15:36 - Sep 6 with 1559 views | bluelagos |
5Bn was as/when Richi did the £400 discount a few months back. Am sure the profits will be significantly higher now given the forecast bills / prices are so much higher. Confident there is plenty of opportunity to raise a lot more towards the much needed help for consumers/small business. | |
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| Energy bills on 15:36 - Sep 6 with 1560 views | nodge_blue |
| Energy bills on 15:31 - Sep 6 by Cotty |
Just think, none of this would be a problem if our governments had taken climate change seriously over the last 25 years. This is a situation also caused in part by fossil fuel lobbyists. |
Yes. I was thinking if we could have insulated alot of houses with 90 billion. Which would have cut bills and reduced the reliance on fossil fuels. | |
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| Energy bills on 15:39 - Sep 6 with 1547 views | bluelagos |
| Energy bills on 15:36 - Sep 6 by nodge_blue |
Yes. I was thinking if we could have insulated alot of houses with 90 billion. Which would have cut bills and reduced the reliance on fossil fuels. |
What's that? Insulate Britain you say? Sure I heard that phrase somewhere... | |
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| Energy bills on 15:43 - Sep 6 with 1534 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Energy bills on 15:36 - Sep 6 by bluelagos |
5Bn was as/when Richi did the £400 discount a few months back. Am sure the profits will be significantly higher now given the forecast bills / prices are so much higher. Confident there is plenty of opportunity to raise a lot more towards the much needed help for consumers/small business. |
Of course, nobody is suggesting there can’t be further windfall taxes (though whether the political will is there remains to be seen). | | | |
| Energy bills on 15:46 - Sep 6 with 1519 views | Ryorry |
| Energy bills on 14:48 - Sep 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
“ German households pay more for electricity than any other country in the EU, and 4.2 million German households will see their gas bills rise by an average 62.3% in 2022 according to reporting by Reuters.” |
Even if that's correct, it would still be massively favourable compared with ourselves. | |
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| Energy bills on 15:49 - Sep 6 with 1508 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Energy bills on 15:46 - Sep 6 by Ryorry |
Even if that's correct, it would still be massively favourable compared with ourselves. |
Yes because those countries had government intervention to limit the price rises. Which we now have. Germany have just spent a further $100bn on capping bills.
As per usual our government is late to the party. | | | |
| Energy bills on 16:06 - Sep 6 with 1468 views | Ryorry |
| Energy bills on 15:49 - Sep 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Yes because those countries had government intervention to limit the price rises. Which we now have. Germany have just spent a further $100bn on capping bills.
As per usual our government is late to the party. |
Exactly - or not at the party at all, their personal interests lying elsewhere ... (a ref also to Cotty's post earlier on thread). | |
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| Energy bills on 16:18 - Sep 6 with 1429 views | Steve_M |
| Energy bills on 14:44 - Sep 6 by Ryorry |
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This is bollox I'm afraid Ryorry.
The government line that, because we don't directly import much gas from Russia is risible because the UK is very much at the mercy of market prices. TTF which is the main European gas index has risen exponentially over the last year, first on Asian demand in Q3 & Q4 2021 and then even more so after Putin started his war.
The UK's biggest problem here is that it uses so much gas for power generation (all those CCGTs built in the 2000s because they were easier than new nuclear) and also for domestic heating but also has very little storage (Centrica's commercial decision to close Rough would have been opposed by a halfway competent government. So, the UK is much more exposed to fluctuations in gas prices, and they are fluctuating all over the place at the moment albeit at much higher levels than anyone would like.
On top of that France actually took intervention to hold down prices to consumers at a cost to the state whilst the UK has been in limbo since Johnson resigned (well, longer than that but particularly so....). |  |
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| Energy bills on 16:36 - Sep 6 with 1282 views | homer_123 |
| Energy bills on 15:35 - Sep 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Not only that but the atrocious regimes that fossil fuels have propped up, Russia, Iran, Venezuela, Saudi etc… |
The reality, though, is that we still need oil....these regimes would still be being propped up |  |
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| Energy bills on 16:39 - Sep 6 with 1276 views | Steve_M |
On the larger point, next year could be bad too but the decoupling from Russian gas will be a lasting benefit to Europe. I think energy prices will be permanently higher than in early 2021 but are likely to stabilise well below current levels. Russia then has a problem because the gas infrastructure is built for transmission to Europe and the geography isn't favourable to suddenly build new pipelines from Northern Siberia to China.
I think the EU will also co-ordinate energy policy even more supranationally which will reduce some of the current fear factor that is helping to push up prices. The UK has a choice to be involved with that, and generally closer co-operation with the EU, which benefits all of Europe including us or not.
On a national level there needs to be far more emphasis on energy efficiency, basic education on which appliances use most in normal use - ovens and heating unfortunately but lighting and even things like electric blankets are cheap, kettles and microwaves are too as not used for long periods - but also on insulation which the Tories foolishly decided to stop funding a decade ago. | |
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| Energy bills on 16:40 - Sep 6 with 1252 views | Ryorry |
| Energy bills on 16:18 - Sep 6 by Steve_M |
This is bollox I'm afraid Ryorry.
The government line that, because we don't directly import much gas from Russia is risible because the UK is very much at the mercy of market prices. TTF which is the main European gas index has risen exponentially over the last year, first on Asian demand in Q3 & Q4 2021 and then even more so after Putin started his war.
The UK's biggest problem here is that it uses so much gas for power generation (all those CCGTs built in the 2000s because they were easier than new nuclear) and also for domestic heating but also has very little storage (Centrica's commercial decision to close Rough would have been opposed by a halfway competent government. So, the UK is much more exposed to fluctuations in gas prices, and they are fluctuating all over the place at the moment albeit at much higher levels than anyone would like.
On top of that France actually took intervention to hold down prices to consumers at a cost to the state whilst the UK has been in limbo since Johnson resigned (well, longer than that but particularly so....). |
I don't have other figures, but whichever way you look at it, other European countries are managing massively better than the UK to protect their populations, because of their different (better, less completely self-serving, less greedy, more far-sighted) governments/policies, was my point via that tweet.
As you say "On top of that France actually took intervention to hold down prices to consumers at a cost to the state". | |
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| Energy bills on 16:41 - Sep 6 with 1244 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| Energy bills on 14:48 - Sep 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
“ German households pay more for electricity than any other country in the EU, and 4.2 million German households will see their gas bills rise by an average 62.3% in 2022 according to reporting by Reuters.” |
Oh that's OK then. Our 200+% increase is perfectly OK now we know 10% of German households are facing a 63% increase. |  |
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| Energy bills on 16:45 - Sep 6 with 1223 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Energy bills on 16:41 - Sep 6 by You_Bloo_Right |
Oh that's OK then. Our 200+% increase is perfectly OK now we know 10% of German households are facing a 63% increase. |
You obviously didn’t read any of the rest, so for your benefit:
“Yes because those countries had government intervention to limit the price rises. Which we now have. Germany have just spent a further $100bn on capping bills.
As per usual our government is late to the party.
”
See also Steve’s post, Germany still generate 30pc of power from coal, we could do that too if you like?
Edit: the supply situation is so dire in Germany, they are anticipating rationing power to businesses in the winter. It’s just been reported that JP Morgan for example have plans to move work to the UK if that transpires. [Post edited 6 Sep 2022 16:48]
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| Energy bills on 16:52 - Sep 6 with 1190 views | Steve_M |
| Energy bills on 16:40 - Sep 6 by Ryorry |
I don't have other figures, but whichever way you look at it, other European countries are managing massively better than the UK to protect their populations, because of their different (better, less completely self-serving, less greedy, more far-sighted) governments/policies, was my point via that tweet.
As you say "On top of that France actually took intervention to hold down prices to consumers at a cost to the state". |
I didn't actually refute the point that irritated me most about that meme: the idea that this is just profiteering by UK energy suppliers. It really isn't.
A couple of things that should be looked at though:
- the margin supply businesses are making under the cap, presumably a percentage so that has increased;
- those UK based producers who have made larger profits, the problem here might be that this disadvantages them against competitors globally which is where an co-ordinated EU approach would help;
Trying to decouple power prices from gas would help too but that's a fairly major market change. | |
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| Energy bills on 17:14 - Sep 6 with 1125 views | JakeITFC |
| Energy bills on 15:31 - Sep 6 by Cotty |
Just think, none of this would be a problem if our governments had taken climate change seriously over the last 25 years. This is a situation also caused in part by fossil fuel lobbyists. |
Although, arguably, it's been caused exactly by us taking climate change seriously - a move away from coal generation and gas storage has caused a lot of these issues as we are in an transition from reliable and baseload generators to intermittent ones (with gas being the marginal plant in any scenario in which the system is short).
This is obviously the right thing to have happened, but it is an early window into the amount of innovation required to take us to a properly net-zero grid (where wind and solar alone aren't the answer), and hopefully accelerates investment into grid-scale storage, other renewable generation types and demand side flexibility. |  | | |
| Energy bills on 17:25 - Sep 6 with 1091 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| Energy bills on 16:40 - Sep 6 by Ryorry |
I don't have other figures, but whichever way you look at it, other European countries are managing massively better than the UK to protect their populations, because of their different (better, less completely self-serving, less greedy, more far-sighted) governments/policies, was my point via that tweet.
As you say "On top of that France actually took intervention to hold down prices to consumers at a cost to the state". |
It’s also a factor if it being a tad chilly in winter in Europe. Thanks to the world-leading Gulf Stream the UK tends not to get bone-chilling winters. So in Europe they tend to prepare and have storage facilities - and state owned industry. | |
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| Energy bills on 17:28 - Sep 6 with 1085 views | Radlett_blue |
| Energy bills on 15:31 - Sep 6 by Cotty |
Just think, none of this would be a problem if our governments had taken climate change seriously over the last 25 years. This is a situation also caused in part by fossil fuel lobbyists. |
Germany is actually far more dependent on Russian gas after it listened to the Green lobby in the 1970s & 1980s & chose to phase out nuclear power generation. Merkel opposed this, but lost her nerve after Fukushima. North Sea gas fields have become depleted, with Russia filling the gap. LNG could replace Russian imports, but this would require large infrastructure investment. Renewables sound great, but again require a large investment in storage infrastructure to handle the intermittence of supply. |  |
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