| Assisted dying debate on 08:17 - Jan 26 with 2468 views | DanTheMan |
I could probably play devil's advocate even if it's something I personally don't agree with. The usual arguments I see are:
- Deciding when someone is mentally competent is difficult
- Families could push vulnerable people into doing it so they no longer have to support them
- Religious reasons
I have a small amount of sympathy for the first two, although it definitely doesn't outweigh what I would consider the positives of letting people die with dignity. |  |
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| Assisted dying debate on 08:22 - Jan 26 with 2460 views | bluelagos |
| Assisted dying debate on 08:17 - Jan 26 by DanTheMan |
I could probably play devil's advocate even if it's something I personally don't agree with. The usual arguments I see are:
- Deciding when someone is mentally competent is difficult
- Families could push vulnerable people into doing it so they no longer have to support them
- Religious reasons
I have a small amount of sympathy for the first two, although it definitely doesn't outweigh what I would consider the positives of letting people die with dignity. |
I think the points you raise could be addressed with appropriate safe guards, such as a doctor having to sign off the decision regarding a patient's mental state.
Maybe a specific law / offence on coercion too?
Lots of countries have assisted dying and presumably they have appropriate safeguards in place, important too due to the risks you highlight. [Post edited 26 Jan 2023 10:05]
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| Assisted dying debate on 08:37 - Jan 26 with 2435 views | DanTheMan |
| Assisted dying debate on 08:22 - Jan 26 by bluelagos |
I think the points you raise could be addressed with appropriate safe guards, such as a doctor having to sign off the decision regarding a patient's mental state.
Maybe a specific law / offence on coercion too?
Lots of countries have assisted dying and presumably they have appropriate safeguards in place, important too due to the risks you highlight. [Post edited 26 Jan 2023 10:05]
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Absolutely, I'd expect any bill to cover those arguments, those are just the common ones I see put forth.
Hard for me to argue something I don't personally agree with!
I know one of my grandparents would have preferred to have died than the fate she suffered where she forgot her own children. | |
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| Assisted dying debate on 09:00 - Jan 26 with 2416 views | Guthrum |
| Assisted dying debate on 08:37 - Jan 26 by DanTheMan |
Absolutely, I'd expect any bill to cover those arguments, those are just the common ones I see put forth.
Hard for me to argue something I don't personally agree with!
I know one of my grandparents would have preferred to have died than the fate she suffered where she forgot her own children. |
That scenario is the most difficult one. Can someone who is no longer mentally competent (due to Alzheimer's/dementia) express an informed desire for their own death?
Also, one has to allow for "cooling off". Taking my mother as an example: In the last year she has become bedridden due to untreatable cancer. Medication keeps her pretty much pain free at this stage. At times, she has said she wishes she weren't still here, mostly due to having rapidly gone from being fairly active to being immobile and needing care. However, at other times she is quite happy, seeing friends and family, reading, doing activities, gets on very well with her carer. Her appetite has improved and she has progressed to being hoisted into a wheelchair sometimes. Mum is far from suicidal 95% of the time. But she has her moments of wretchedness (as we probably all would in those circumstances).
I'm not against assisted dying in principle, but it is something which needs to be handled with a great deal more care than most governments put into drafting legislation. [Post edited 26 Jan 2023 9:01]
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| Assisted dying debate on 09:02 - Jan 26 with 2409 views | GlasgowBlue |
I’m not sure either way about assisted dying. Something I haven’t given a great deal of thought to.
However, I’m not really comfortable with the way devolution I’d being used to pass such massive legislation which has a knock on effect for the rest of the UK.
I’m with Alistair Campbell on this. It’s easy to support the legislation we agree with but what happens if a devolved government passes legislation that effects the whole of the UK and it isn’t such a worthy cause? [Post edited 26 Jan 2023 9:04]
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| Assisted dying debate on 09:03 - Jan 26 with 2403 views | hype313 |
| Assisted dying debate on 09:00 - Jan 26 by Guthrum |
That scenario is the most difficult one. Can someone who is no longer mentally competent (due to Alzheimer's/dementia) express an informed desire for their own death?
Also, one has to allow for "cooling off". Taking my mother as an example: In the last year she has become bedridden due to untreatable cancer. Medication keeps her pretty much pain free at this stage. At times, she has said she wishes she weren't still here, mostly due to having rapidly gone from being fairly active to being immobile and needing care. However, at other times she is quite happy, seeing friends and family, reading, doing activities, gets on very well with her carer. Her appetite has improved and she has progressed to being hoisted into a wheelchair sometimes. Mum is far from suicidal 95% of the time. But she has her moments of wretchedness (as we probably all would in those circumstances).
I'm not against assisted dying in principle, but it is something which needs to be handled with a great deal more care than most governments put into drafting legislation. [Post edited 26 Jan 2023 9:01]
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Could people not have something written in law years before saying something like "If I contract Alzheimers/Dementia, this is my wish"? or would that be open to abuse? |  |
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| Assisted dying debate on 09:06 - Jan 26 with 2375 views | Guthrum |
| Assisted dying debate on 09:03 - Jan 26 by hype313 |
Could people not have something written in law years before saying something like "If I contract Alzheimers/Dementia, this is my wish"? or would that be open to abuse? |
Yes, they could. However, if they haven't, but it happens anyway, what to do then?
There's been a lot of progress on treatments and therapies for dementia. It may not be the blind tunnel it has always been seen as, much in the same way many cancers are no longer a death sentence. | |
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| Assisted dying debate on 09:09 - Jan 26 with 2357 views | DJR |
| Assisted dying debate on 09:02 - Jan 26 by GlasgowBlue |
I’m not sure either way about assisted dying. Something I haven’t given a great deal of thought to.
However, I’m not really comfortable with the way devolution I’d being used to pass such massive legislation which has a knock on effect for the rest of the UK.
I’m with Alistair Campbell on this. It’s easy to support the legislation we agree with but what happens if a devolved government passes legislation that effects the whole of the UK and it isn’t such a worthy cause? [Post edited 26 Jan 2023 9:04]
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That's what the Westminster Parliament does all the time against the wishes of the Scottish people. |  | | |
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| Assisted dying debate on 09:14 - Jan 26 with 2328 views | OldFart71 |
Being a person in my 70's I can tell you that if I was unable to use my faculties or I was unable to do anything but sit in a chair or bed I would prefer not to be on this earth. Everyone will look at this differently and I admire people who although disabled or not having the full use of their brain who do good for a charity or some cause. |  | | |
| Assisted dying debate on 09:53 - Jan 26 with 2255 views | DJR |
| Assisted dying debate on 09:14 - Jan 26 by OldFart71 |
Being a person in my 70's I can tell you that if I was unable to use my faculties or I was unable to do anything but sit in a chair or bed I would prefer not to be on this earth. Everyone will look at this differently and I admire people who although disabled or not having the full use of their brain who do good for a charity or some cause. |
As you say, we're all different, but as long as I had my mental faculties to keep myself occupied, I could happily sit in a chair, if I had a nice, bright outside view from the chair. But as I'm in my 60s, I'm hoping that is a long way off. | | | |
| Assisted dying debate on 09:56 - Jan 26 with 2241 views | Churchman |
I am in favour of it in principle. If I could have spared my mother the last ten days of her life, I’d have done it. My views are very much my own and I respect and understand those who hold a different view.
How you implement it, what constitutes choice, who makes the decision etc is hideously difficult. I don’t have the answers. |  | | |
| Assisted dying debate on 10:03 - Jan 26 with 2224 views | blueasfook |
| Assisted dying debate on 09:03 - Jan 26 by hype313 |
Could people not have something written in law years before saying something like "If I contract Alzheimers/Dementia, this is my wish"? or would that be open to abuse? |
I think there is something like that - it's called a "living will" where you can specify what you would like to happen in certain situations (ie should you become incapacited and unable to communicate your wishes/preferences). For example, you could specify you dont wish to recieve certain treatments or suchlike. |  |
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| Assisted dying debate on 10:03 - Jan 26 with 2221 views | bluelagos |
| Assisted dying debate on 09:02 - Jan 26 by GlasgowBlue |
I’m not sure either way about assisted dying. Something I haven’t given a great deal of thought to.
However, I’m not really comfortable with the way devolution I’d being used to pass such massive legislation which has a knock on effect for the rest of the UK.
I’m with Alistair Campbell on this. It’s easy to support the legislation we agree with but what happens if a devolved government passes legislation that effects the whole of the UK and it isn’t such a worthy cause? [Post edited 26 Jan 2023 9:04]
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How does it effect the rest of the UK if Scotland were to pass the proposed legislation?
I am in England, I would still have no right to assisted dying in England. I currently have the ability to travel outside England (to access Dignitas and alike) if I so choose, and that too would remain unchanged? (Albeit Scotland is fair bit closer than Switzerland) [Post edited 26 Jan 2023 10:06]
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| Assisted dying debate on 10:10 - Jan 26 with 2176 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Assisted dying debate on 09:09 - Jan 26 by DJR |
That's what the Westminster Parliament does all the time against the wishes of the Scottish people. |
Scotland is part of the UK.
What was your view when the Supreme Court took the decision to allow states to decide on abortion law rather than central government? | |
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| Assisted dying debate on 10:15 - Jan 26 with 2151 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Assisted dying debate on 10:03 - Jan 26 by bluelagos |
How does it effect the rest of the UK if Scotland were to pass the proposed legislation?
I am in England, I would still have no right to assisted dying in England. I currently have the ability to travel outside England (to access Dignitas and alike) if I so choose, and that too would remain unchanged? (Albeit Scotland is fair bit closer than Switzerland) [Post edited 26 Jan 2023 10:06]
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You answered your own question.
Scotland is far easier to get to than Switzerland. No passport, no visas, no airports.
As I said, the subject isn't my issue. It's the way devolution is being used to pass massive legislation that affects the rest of the UK.
Things like abortion, assisted dying etc should be the same throughout the UK. | |
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| Assisted dying debate on 10:17 - Jan 26 with 2118 views | Ryorry |
| Assisted dying debate on 08:22 - Jan 26 by bluelagos |
I think the points you raise could be addressed with appropriate safe guards, such as a doctor having to sign off the decision regarding a patient's mental state.
Maybe a specific law / offence on coercion too?
Lots of countries have assisted dying and presumably they have appropriate safeguards in place, important too due to the risks you highlight. [Post edited 26 Jan 2023 10:05]
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"..appropriate safe gaurds, such as a doctor having to sign off the decision regarding a patient's mental state."
Don't make me laugh (cry) - even two doctors are no protection whatsoever where there's private medical care - signatures are easily bought in my horrible experience.
I used to be firmly in the camp of "you wouldn't let dogs carry on suffering" - until I was asked to assist someone by taking them to a clinic in Switzerland, at which point I discovered a whole gamut of emotional & psychological stuff that I didn't even know I had, getting in the way. Luckily my passport was out of date, which gave me a practical get out, though the person in question found someone else to accompany them, & succeeded n their aim in the end (the clinic wouldn't accept unaccompanied people).
Thing is that that person didn't have a terminal illness, nor dementia. They were elderly, depressed after the death of their partner, a fall which left them with slightly impaired mobility, & had a recorded history of a previous suicide attempt years earlier, which they were saved from & afterwards went on to live several more happy years. Yet for the Switzerland trip they still found two London doctors to sign them off as terminally ill. Absolutely disgusting.
Other factor in the equation is that dogs don't generally leave large sums of money to humans in their wills. |  |
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| Assisted dying debate on 10:20 - Jan 26 with 2109 views | bluelagos |
| Assisted dying debate on 10:15 - Jan 26 by GlasgowBlue |
You answered your own question.
Scotland is far easier to get to than Switzerland. No passport, no visas, no airports.
As I said, the subject isn't my issue. It's the way devolution is being used to pass massive legislation that affects the rest of the UK.
Things like abortion, assisted dying etc should be the same throughout the UK. |
One presumes they could legislate to ensure only Scottish residents could access the services? Much like they do currently exclude English residents from free University fees / free prescriptions currently?
Can see why Scotland would not want to become a destination for English patients here. | |
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| Assisted dying debate on 10:25 - Jan 26 with 2100 views | DJR |
| Assisted dying debate on 10:10 - Jan 26 by GlasgowBlue |
Scotland is part of the UK.
What was your view when the Supreme Court took the decision to allow states to decide on abortion law rather than central government? |
Speaking as a lawyer, I am not wholly convinced by the US system (although I am no expert on it), which has Republican Supreme Court judges deciding things on the basis of what seems to me to be their political views rather than the law, and things like the impeachment of Trump being done on a partisan basis.
Much better the UK system, where judges and prosecutors are non-political, decide things on the basis of the law, and (leaving aside their class and background) are not biased.
But I am not really sure of your point. Are you suggesting more powers should be taken away from the Scottish government? Or that the Scottish government is going to outlaw abortion?
The fact is that the Scottish legal system has been different for many centuries on many things (including marriage), without it causing any problems of which I am aware. But clearly these differences are now being highlighted and used as part of the culture wars.
Anyway the logical outcome of what you suggest is that Scotland will have to wait for England to advance things on social issues, which with an anti-woke UK government is not particularly likely at present. [Post edited 26 Jan 2023 10:34]
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| Assisted dying debate on 10:25 - Jan 26 with 2099 views | bluelagos |
| Assisted dying debate on 10:17 - Jan 26 by Ryorry |
"..appropriate safe gaurds, such as a doctor having to sign off the decision regarding a patient's mental state."
Don't make me laugh (cry) - even two doctors are no protection whatsoever where there's private medical care - signatures are easily bought in my horrible experience.
I used to be firmly in the camp of "you wouldn't let dogs carry on suffering" - until I was asked to assist someone by taking them to a clinic in Switzerland, at which point I discovered a whole gamut of emotional & psychological stuff that I didn't even know I had, getting in the way. Luckily my passport was out of date, which gave me a practical get out, though the person in question found someone else to accompany them, & succeeded n their aim in the end (the clinic wouldn't accept unaccompanied people).
Thing is that that person didn't have a terminal illness, nor dementia. They were elderly, depressed after the death of their partner, a fall which left them with slightly impaired mobility, & had a recorded history of a previous suicide attempt years earlier, which they were saved from & afterwards went on to live several more happy years. Yet for the Switzerland trip they still found two London doctors to sign them off as terminally ill. Absolutely disgusting.
Other factor in the equation is that dogs don't generally leave large sums of money to humans in their wills. |
Wonder if the safeguards need to be stronger then? Go before a magistrate/judge too? (Though that would be a whole lot more burden on an already failing legal/justice system)
Think Belgium has assisted dying atm. There will be lots of examples of countries where they have looked at / legislated and come up with safe guards that work. (Which is clearly very important) | |
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| Assisted dying debate on 10:32 - Jan 26 with 2075 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Assisted dying debate on 10:25 - Jan 26 by DJR |
Speaking as a lawyer, I am not wholly convinced by the US system (although I am no expert on it), which has Republican Supreme Court judges deciding things on the basis of what seems to me to be their political views rather than the law, and things like the impeachment of Trump being done on a partisan basis.
Much better the UK system, where judges and prosecutors are non-political, decide things on the basis of the law, and (leaving aside their class and background) are not biased.
But I am not really sure of your point. Are you suggesting more powers should be taken away from the Scottish government? Or that the Scottish government is going to outlaw abortion?
The fact is that the Scottish legal system has been different for many centuries on many things (including marriage), without it causing any problems of which I am aware. But clearly these differences are now being highlighted and used as part of the culture wars.
Anyway the logical outcome of what you suggest is that Scotland will have to wait for England to advance things on social issues, which with an anti-woke UK government is not particularly likely at present. [Post edited 26 Jan 2023 10:34]
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Re the Supreme Court. They reversed Wade Roe and now allow devolved states to decide their own laws on abortion.
I don't think devolved governments should have the power to pass life or death legislation.
I'm pretty certain that if the Catholic Church had influence over a future Scottish government and Scotland went their own way on restricting abortions, people would be taking a much different view on devolved government passing massive legislation that differs from the rest of the UK. | |
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| Assisted dying debate on 10:58 - Jan 26 with 1891 views | LeoMuff |
| Assisted dying debate on 09:03 - Jan 26 by hype313 |
Could people not have something written in law years before saying something like "If I contract Alzheimers/Dementia, this is my wish"? or would that be open to abuse? |
I think the problem here is you never know how you would feel in a certain scenario, I once watched one of those fly on the while programmes and a chap had had a brain stem stroke and was locked in, it took them some time to establish a communication channel with him and when he could eventually make his wished known he wanted to continue with his life being sustained, despite very clearly expressing many times he would not want to live in those circumstances. |  |
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| Assisted dying debate on 11:01 - Jan 26 with 1882 views | DJR |
| Assisted dying debate on 10:32 - Jan 26 by GlasgowBlue |
Re the Supreme Court. They reversed Wade Roe and now allow devolved states to decide their own laws on abortion.
I don't think devolved governments should have the power to pass life or death legislation.
I'm pretty certain that if the Catholic Church had influence over a future Scottish government and Scotland went their own way on restricting abortions, people would be taking a much different view on devolved government passing massive legislation that differs from the rest of the UK. |
I think the overturning of the Roe v Wade decision, and the suggestion of the Scottish government outlawing abortion, is a bit of a red herring because abortion is not a political issue in the UK, outside certain Tory MPs and the DUP.
Personally, I don't think Scotland going a different way on the certain things is really an issue. After all, with some things (eg. gay marriage), England acted first. And even when powers were centralised, different parts of the UK had different laws on things like homosexuality, which reflected the different views in different parts of the UK.
It must be borne in mind that Scotland has had different laws on different things for many centuries without it causing any problems. It's just that as part of the Tory culture wars such things are being highlighted and built up to be problems that they really aren't.
Finally, if you were to take abortion away from the Scottish Parliament, this would presumably prevent things like the proposed Abortion Services Safe Access Zones (Scotland) Bill.
[Post edited 26 Jan 2023 11:20]
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| Assisted dying debate on 11:37 - Jan 26 with 1770 views | BloomBlue |
| Assisted dying debate on 10:25 - Jan 26 by bluelagos |
Wonder if the safeguards need to be stronger then? Go before a magistrate/judge too? (Though that would be a whole lot more burden on an already failing legal/justice system)
Think Belgium has assisted dying atm. There will be lots of examples of countries where they have looked at / legislated and come up with safe guards that work. (Which is clearly very important) |
Belgium does have assisted dying but I think there has been a couple of cases where that's made them reasses.
I know there was a case last year involving a 64 year old women who was euthanised with the explanation that she had been suffering from ‘untreatable depression’. It was in the news because her son took it to the European court of human rights as he was only informed she had been euthanised the day after it had happened.
There was another case of a 38 year old woman who was diagnosed with autism, euthanised because of her mental health issues. The question being asked shouldn't they be cared for rather than euthanised
The trouble with this topic is people will often say I agree with it when factoring in the individual being really old, less agreement when factoring in younger people. In Belgium the rule is based around 'untreatable condition'. Where does that start and caring for the individual stop? |  | | |
| Assisted dying debate on 11:51 - Jan 26 with 1741 views | Darth_Koont |
| Assisted dying debate on 10:25 - Jan 26 by DJR |
Speaking as a lawyer, I am not wholly convinced by the US system (although I am no expert on it), which has Republican Supreme Court judges deciding things on the basis of what seems to me to be their political views rather than the law, and things like the impeachment of Trump being done on a partisan basis.
Much better the UK system, where judges and prosecutors are non-political, decide things on the basis of the law, and (leaving aside their class and background) are not biased.
But I am not really sure of your point. Are you suggesting more powers should be taken away from the Scottish government? Or that the Scottish government is going to outlaw abortion?
The fact is that the Scottish legal system has been different for many centuries on many things (including marriage), without it causing any problems of which I am aware. But clearly these differences are now being highlighted and used as part of the culture wars.
Anyway the logical outcome of what you suggest is that Scotland will have to wait for England to advance things on social issues, which with an anti-woke UK government is not particularly likely at present. [Post edited 26 Jan 2023 10:34]
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“clearly these differences are now being highlighted and used as part of the culture wars”.
Exactly. Westminster politics shouldn’t come into it – as that’s largely based on reactionary control, defending the status quo/blocking progress, and the whole silly party political game. But of course they need to throw their unhelpful and self-interested oar into the discussion.
There are real lives at stake here and real suffering. But that’s never going to be the driver in this “discussion” if those clowns are involved.
Maybe a very cynical and jaundiced view but I see scant evidence to think otherwise 🙂 |  |
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| Assisted dying debate on 11:55 - Jan 26 with 1728 views | Darth_Koont |
| Assisted dying debate on 10:32 - Jan 26 by GlasgowBlue |
Re the Supreme Court. They reversed Wade Roe and now allow devolved states to decide their own laws on abortion.
I don't think devolved governments should have the power to pass life or death legislation.
I'm pretty certain that if the Catholic Church had influence over a future Scottish government and Scotland went their own way on restricting abortions, people would be taking a much different view on devolved government passing massive legislation that differs from the rest of the UK. |
That’s a hell of a straw man there. More of a wicker man if I’m being honest.
All the signs point to UK-wide legislation being the more repressive and outdated if we’re assessing risks to people’s rights. So your concerns justify an independent Scottish approach even more. | |
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