| QT. 22:57 - Oct 26 with 6890 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Baroness Warsi....a Conservative voice of reason. |  |
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| QT. on 00:00 - Oct 27 with 4623 views | Whos_blue |
Yes.
Spoke well tonight.
Tories and Labour on the other hand tied up in knots over Israel/Palestine. |  |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| QT. on 00:25 - Oct 27 with 4597 views | bournemouthblue |
| QT. on 00:00 - Oct 27 by Whos_blue |
Yes.
Spoke well tonight.
Tories and Labour on the other hand tied up in knots over Israel/Palestine. |
I actually think Labour have been keen to be supportive of Israel, in part to try and silence the voices of anti-semitism previously levelled at them, rightly or wrongly during Corbyn's tenure
They're in a tricky position with this and it has divided the party on their initial communications and stance frankly |  |
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| QT. on 00:26 - Oct 27 with 4593 views | BlueBadger |
Your occasional reminder about the Iain Banks 'sweetcorn' allegory. |  |
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| QT. on 00:47 - Oct 27 with 4572 views | Whos_blue |
| QT. on 00:25 - Oct 27 by bournemouthblue |
I actually think Labour have been keen to be supportive of Israel, in part to try and silence the voices of anti-semitism previously levelled at them, rightly or wrongly during Corbyn's tenure
They're in a tricky position with this and it has divided the party on their initial communications and stance frankly |
I think you've nailed it here.
It was and still remains absolutely the right for Israel to defend itself.
I'm not sure this has ever been in doubt, but the antisemitism inquiry and the attempts to put that right have completely paralysed the party's ability to speak out about the Gazan humanitarian crisis we see unfolding. Kier made a right pigs ear of it when he inadvertently suggested it was ok to switch off the water. I mean really?
As a traditional Labour voter I've struggled to warm to Kier, but I keep reminding myself I'm voting for a party, not an individual.
He may want to appear statesman like, but his and the party's position on the current crisis is doing nothing for me. | |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| QT. on 07:32 - Oct 27 with 4437 views | Darth_Koont |
| QT. on 00:25 - Oct 27 by bournemouthblue |
I actually think Labour have been keen to be supportive of Israel, in part to try and silence the voices of anti-semitism previously levelled at them, rightly or wrongly during Corbyn's tenure
They're in a tricky position with this and it has divided the party on their initial communications and stance frankly |
Unfortunately this is the core of Labour’s antisemitism crisis playing out now.
Those who made the biggest accusations of antisemitism in Labour and pushed the biased IHRA examples are leading the way in promoting Israel’s “right to self-defence” trumping the lives of Palestinian civilians. Those who they were targeting are the pro-Palestinians, many of them Jews themselves and increasingly thrown out of the party under Starmer.
Labour are a pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian party now with the members largely sidelined. Also entirely in keeping with their swing right and more authoritarian in their support for the status quo at home and abroad. |  |
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| QT. on 08:18 - Oct 27 with 4363 views | DJR |
| QT. on 00:25 - Oct 27 by bournemouthblue |
I actually think Labour have been keen to be supportive of Israel, in part to try and silence the voices of anti-semitism previously levelled at them, rightly or wrongly during Corbyn's tenure
They're in a tricky position with this and it has divided the party on their initial communications and stance frankly |
I don't see it that way. In my view the current Labour Party have just reverted to the party they were under Blair, where support for the US and its allies, warts and all, was the main driver when it came to foreign policy.
In this sense it is not only Corbyn who was an aberration but also Miliband (despised by the Blairites) who condemned the war in Iraq and promised to recognise Palestine (a commitment recently dropped by Labour).
Incidentally, I heard John McTernan, a former adviser to Blair, on LBC a couple of days ago. His attitude to the plight of civilians in Gaza was as callous as you could get.
EDIT: And when it comes to the former Peace Envoy to the Middle East, how wrong can you be?
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20200924-tony-blair-ties-between-arab-states-i [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 12:40]
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| QT. on 08:20 - Oct 27 with 4348 views | GlasgowBlue |
| QT. on 07:32 - Oct 27 by Darth_Koont |
Unfortunately this is the core of Labour’s antisemitism crisis playing out now.
Those who made the biggest accusations of antisemitism in Labour and pushed the biased IHRA examples are leading the way in promoting Israel’s “right to self-defence” trumping the lives of Palestinian civilians. Those who they were targeting are the pro-Palestinians, many of them Jews themselves and increasingly thrown out of the party under Starmer.
Labour are a pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian party now with the members largely sidelined. Also entirely in keeping with their swing right and more authoritarian in their support for the status quo at home and abroad. |
What do you want to say about the state of Israel that would cause you to fall foul of the IHRA definition? |  |
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| QT. on 09:36 - Oct 27 with 4262 views | Darth_Koont |
| QT. on 08:20 - Oct 27 by GlasgowBlue |
What do you want to say about the state of Israel that would cause you to fall foul of the IHRA definition? |
Nothing in the definition itself as that’s about anti-Jewish prejudice. No-one has objected to that from what I’ve seen.
The examples however include many references to Israel that conflate criticism of Israel with anti-Jewish prejudice and effectively silence the Palestinian perspective on their own occupation and oppression. For Palestinians, it is reasonable to say that Israel has been and is a racist endeavour that forced another people off their land and has led to the current apartheid result.
Israel and its supporters have another perspective on that of course, and other legitimate needs for security and safety that do need to be taken into account. But we can’t prohibit the pro-Palestinian voices and Palestinians expressing their lived reality because that is out and out racism. | |
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| QT. on 09:50 - Oct 27 with 4228 views | baxterbasics |
I would imagine all recent Labour leaders, Corbyn aside, and any potential Kier replacements, would be taking a similar line on Israel in these circs. Including Miliband. |  |
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| QT. on 10:16 - Oct 27 with 4180 views | Blueschev |
| QT. on 08:20 - Oct 27 by GlasgowBlue |
What do you want to say about the state of Israel that would cause you to fall foul of the IHRA definition? |
"Applying double standards by requiring of it (Israel) a behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation." - What on earth does that even mean? What defines a democratic nation? Who decides it's a double standard? Inferring that all Jews are responsible for the actions of Israel is (correctly) considered antisemitic, but this example completely muddies the waters between the two, contradicting it's own mission.
"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." What if the actions of the Israeli state become comparable to that of the Nazis? Many Israelis have made the comparison rightly or wrongly, are they antisemites? If any other "democratic nation" behaved in a manner comparable to the Nazis then they would rightly be called out for it. To exempt Israel from that is to treat it differently from other nations, which according to the examples is antisemitic.
It's contradictions have been highlighted by its author. Those insisting upon it being adopted by everybody are deliberately trying to stifle free speech. It's completely unhelpful and does nothing to combat antisemitism. |  | | |
| QT. on 12:22 - Oct 27 with 4083 views | factual_blue |
There's an excellent oxymoron. |  |
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| QT. on 13:33 - Oct 27 with 3937 views | Darth_Koont |
| QT. on 10:16 - Oct 27 by Blueschev |
"Applying double standards by requiring of it (Israel) a behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation." - What on earth does that even mean? What defines a democratic nation? Who decides it's a double standard? Inferring that all Jews are responsible for the actions of Israel is (correctly) considered antisemitic, but this example completely muddies the waters between the two, contradicting it's own mission.
"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." What if the actions of the Israeli state become comparable to that of the Nazis? Many Israelis have made the comparison rightly or wrongly, are they antisemites? If any other "democratic nation" behaved in a manner comparable to the Nazis then they would rightly be called out for it. To exempt Israel from that is to treat it differently from other nations, which according to the examples is antisemitic.
It's contradictions have been highlighted by its author. Those insisting upon it being adopted by everybody are deliberately trying to stifle free speech. It's completely unhelpful and does nothing to combat antisemitism. |
Indeed.
The people pushing these examples and insisting everyone conforms to them are fundamentalists who effectively want to deny Palestinians their rights. It’s remarkably one-sided and dangerous in a situation where both Israeli and Palestinian civilians are in need of protection. | |
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| QT. on 14:12 - Oct 27 with 3871 views | Blueschev |
| QT. on 13:33 - Oct 27 by Darth_Koont |
Indeed.
The people pushing these examples and insisting everyone conforms to them are fundamentalists who effectively want to deny Palestinians their rights. It’s remarkably one-sided and dangerous in a situation where both Israeli and Palestinian civilians are in need of protection. |
I personally think it has less to do with Israel / Palestine and more to do with silencing / discrediting the left more broadly. In the same way that this government have tried to enforce a revisionist version of the history of empire in to the national curriculum. Or this piece of frightening nonsense, pushed through by the self appointed opponents of "wokeism" and " cancel culture". It's all very worrying, but connected all the same.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/sep/27/uk-schools-told-not-to-use-ant [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 14:32]
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| QT. on 14:39 - Oct 27 with 3821 views | GlasgowBlue |
| QT. on 10:16 - Oct 27 by Blueschev |
"Applying double standards by requiring of it (Israel) a behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation." - What on earth does that even mean? What defines a democratic nation? Who decides it's a double standard? Inferring that all Jews are responsible for the actions of Israel is (correctly) considered antisemitic, but this example completely muddies the waters between the two, contradicting it's own mission.
"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." What if the actions of the Israeli state become comparable to that of the Nazis? Many Israelis have made the comparison rightly or wrongly, are they antisemites? If any other "democratic nation" behaved in a manner comparable to the Nazis then they would rightly be called out for it. To exempt Israel from that is to treat it differently from other nations, which according to the examples is antisemitic.
It's contradictions have been highlighted by its author. Those insisting upon it being adopted by everybody are deliberately trying to stifle free speech. It's completely unhelpful and does nothing to combat antisemitism. |
Is there anything that the Nazis did that hasn't been done by any other vile totalitarian regime? Why compare Israeli start to the Communists? Or perhaps some of the other far right regimes in the world?
What is it that makes you want to compare the Israeli state to the Nazis when there are plenty of other examples you could use?
It's just to guilt trip Jews and use their past suffering against them. And that's why it is anti semitic.
https://www.economist.com/bagehots-notebook/2016/04/28/guest-post-why-comparing- [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 14:43]
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| QT. on 14:46 - Oct 27 with 3794 views | GlasgowBlue |
| QT. on 14:12 - Oct 27 by Blueschev |
I personally think it has less to do with Israel / Palestine and more to do with silencing / discrediting the left more broadly. In the same way that this government have tried to enforce a revisionist version of the history of empire in to the national curriculum. Or this piece of frightening nonsense, pushed through by the self appointed opponents of "wokeism" and " cancel culture". It's all very worrying, but connected all the same.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/sep/27/uk-schools-told-not-to-use-ant [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 14:32]
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6 million Jews incinerated in the Holocaust. So examples of antisemitism are put in place that does not allow people to use that tragic event to hurt Jews is today's world.
But hey, it's the left that are the real victims here. | |
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| QT. on 14:47 - Oct 27 with 3794 views | Blueschev |
| QT. on 14:39 - Oct 27 by GlasgowBlue |
Is there anything that the Nazis did that hasn't been done by any other vile totalitarian regime? Why compare Israeli start to the Communists? Or perhaps some of the other far right regimes in the world?
What is it that makes you want to compare the Israeli state to the Nazis when there are plenty of other examples you could use?
It's just to guilt trip Jews and use their past suffering against them. And that's why it is anti semitic.
https://www.economist.com/bagehots-notebook/2016/04/28/guest-post-why-comparing- [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 14:43]
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"It's just to guilt trip Jews and use their past suffering against them. And that's why it is anti semitic." What is? You're condemning a hypothetical conversation, regardless of any context it may have. And that's exactly why I have a problem with this so called definition. | | | |
| QT. on 14:50 - Oct 27 with 3787 views | Blueschev |
| QT. on 14:46 - Oct 27 by GlasgowBlue |
6 million Jews incinerated in the Holocaust. So examples of antisemitism are put in place that does not allow people to use that tragic event to hurt Jews is today's world.
But hey, it's the left that are the real victims here. |
I'm trying to engage in a civilised debate on free-speech. Why are you trying to insinuate that I'm somehow belittling the holocaust or justifying antisemitism? It's pretty insulting to be honest. [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 14:57]
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| QT. on 17:18 - Oct 27 with 3633 views | Darth_Koont |
| QT. on 14:12 - Oct 27 by Blueschev |
I personally think it has less to do with Israel / Palestine and more to do with silencing / discrediting the left more broadly. In the same way that this government have tried to enforce a revisionist version of the history of empire in to the national curriculum. Or this piece of frightening nonsense, pushed through by the self appointed opponents of "wokeism" and " cancel culture". It's all very worrying, but connected all the same.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/sep/27/uk-schools-told-not-to-use-ant [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 14:32]
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No disagreement there. Certainly in terms of the people who weaponised it for Labour factional and party political reasons. Or the right-wing media because it’s just another part of their constant and largely imaginary battle against the left.
Really disturbing and reactionary stuff. Especially because it’s all been brazenly in the open. | |
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| QT. on 19:47 - Oct 27 with 3535 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| QT. on 14:50 - Oct 27 by Blueschev |
I'm trying to engage in a civilised debate on free-speech. Why are you trying to insinuate that I'm somehow belittling the holocaust or justifying antisemitism? It's pretty insulting to be honest. [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 14:57]
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It's all he has when the going gets tough. Detail is not his friend. | |
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| [Redacted] on 20:09 - Oct 27 with 3497 views | victorywilhappen |
| QT. on 07:32 - Oct 27 by Darth_Koont |
Unfortunately this is the core of Labour’s antisemitism crisis playing out now.
Those who made the biggest accusations of antisemitism in Labour and pushed the biased IHRA examples are leading the way in promoting Israel’s “right to self-defence” trumping the lives of Palestinian civilians. Those who they were targeting are the pro-Palestinians, many of them Jews themselves and increasingly thrown out of the party under Starmer.
Labour are a pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian party now with the members largely sidelined. Also entirely in keeping with their swing right and more authoritarian in their support for the status quo at home and abroad. |
[Redacted] |  | | |
| [Redacted] on 20:16 - Oct 27 with 3476 views | victorywilhappen |
| QT. on 14:50 - Oct 27 by Blueschev |
I'm trying to engage in a civilised debate on free-speech. Why are you trying to insinuate that I'm somehow belittling the holocaust or justifying antisemitism? It's pretty insulting to be honest. [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 14:57]
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[Redacted] | | | |
| QT. on 20:31 - Oct 27 with 3447 views | jontysnut |
| QT. on 09:50 - Oct 27 by baxterbasics |
I would imagine all recent Labour leaders, Corbyn aside, and any potential Kier replacements, would be taking a similar line on Israel in these circs. Including Miliband. |
A pundit on TV reckoned Starmer would rather put up with noise within the party than aggravate the press by being seen to side with Palestinians |  | | |
| QT. on 20:33 - Oct 27 with 3435 views | Blueschev |
I’ve read that several times now and I still don’t understand what you mean? | | | |
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