| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 09:24 - Sep 12 with 3310 views | ElephantintheRoom |
Kind of ignores the reality that Ukraine has been using long range missiles on what Russia considers to be Russia for over a decade. |  |
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| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 09:45 - Sep 12 with 3280 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
It's a pivotal time with or without this decision.
Putin is getting his all of his moves straight from the Hitler playbook, and has been relying on NATO being too worried about what he might do from the very start.
There is a European war happening now, that in and of itself is inherently risky, as history tells us. [Post edited 12 Sep 2024 9:49]
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| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 10:52 - Sep 12 with 3202 views | bsw72 |
| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 09:45 - Sep 12 by Cheltenham_Blue |
It's a pivotal time with or without this decision.
Putin is getting his all of his moves straight from the Hitler playbook, and has been relying on NATO being too worried about what he might do from the very start.
There is a European war happening now, that in and of itself is inherently risky, as history tells us. [Post edited 12 Sep 2024 9:49]
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I don't think it is particularly out of Hitler's playbook alone, you could draw the same comparisons against Napoleon or Hannibal - all of these aggressors ultimately failed and were forced to retreat (Napoleon from Russia and Hannibal from Italy) as they underestimated opponents and were faced with supply/resource issues.
Generally starting a conflict is a miscalculation and is based on assumptions that in the end turn out to be mis-stated and things that the instigator believes or wants to be true.
Putin is probably closer now to how Stalin operated from 1943 although the first few years of Putin's control looks a similar to how the USSR operated under Krushchev and went through the period of de-Stalinization from the mid 1950s.
Without doubt it is the most extraordinary period of European history since the 1989 revolutions. |  | | |
| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 10:53 - Sep 12 with 3197 views | Guthrum |
| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 09:24 - Sep 12 by ElephantintheRoom |
Kind of ignores the reality that Ukraine has been using long range missiles on what Russia considers to be Russia for over a decade. |
Between 2014 and 2022 Russia maintained the fiction that Donetsk and Luhansk were merely separatist provinces under their protection. It wasn't until late September 2022 that they were formally annexed.
Moreover, there's a difference between ageing, short-range Soviet systems (mostly standard artillery) being lobbed over the frontline in the Donbass and foreign-supplied high precision munitions being launched hundreds of miles onto strategic targets in Russia proper. |  |
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| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 11:05 - Sep 12 with 3175 views | Guthrum |
| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 10:52 - Sep 12 by bsw72 |
I don't think it is particularly out of Hitler's playbook alone, you could draw the same comparisons against Napoleon or Hannibal - all of these aggressors ultimately failed and were forced to retreat (Napoleon from Russia and Hannibal from Italy) as they underestimated opponents and were faced with supply/resource issues.
Generally starting a conflict is a miscalculation and is based on assumptions that in the end turn out to be mis-stated and things that the instigator believes or wants to be true.
Putin is probably closer now to how Stalin operated from 1943 although the first few years of Putin's control looks a similar to how the USSR operated under Krushchev and went through the period of de-Stalinization from the mid 1950s.
Without doubt it is the most extraordinary period of European history since the 1989 revolutions. |
The interesting question is whether this is the last hurrah of an old order, much as the First World War was*, or a movement into a new reality. When Putin was born, Stalin was still in power, started his career in the Brezhnev era. He is a child of the Cold War, as many of the world's elder statesmen are.
Wannabe conquerors have not really recovered from Alexander the Great. Or learnt the lessons from the ultimate failure of his fairly short-lived empire.
* A very 19th century conflict in origins and causes, which got out of hand. | |
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| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 11:11 - Sep 12 with 3131 views | blueasfook |
| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 10:52 - Sep 12 by bsw72 |
I don't think it is particularly out of Hitler's playbook alone, you could draw the same comparisons against Napoleon or Hannibal - all of these aggressors ultimately failed and were forced to retreat (Napoleon from Russia and Hannibal from Italy) as they underestimated opponents and were faced with supply/resource issues.
Generally starting a conflict is a miscalculation and is based on assumptions that in the end turn out to be mis-stated and things that the instigator believes or wants to be true.
Putin is probably closer now to how Stalin operated from 1943 although the first few years of Putin's control looks a similar to how the USSR operated under Krushchev and went through the period of de-Stalinization from the mid 1950s.
Without doubt it is the most extraordinary period of European history since the 1989 revolutions. |
Hannibal? Aww, i loved him in A-Team. |  |
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| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 11:44 - Sep 12 with 3038 views | bluejacko |
| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 10:53 - Sep 12 by Guthrum |
Between 2014 and 2022 Russia maintained the fiction that Donetsk and Luhansk were merely separatist provinces under their protection. It wasn't until late September 2022 that they were formally annexed.
Moreover, there's a difference between ageing, short-range Soviet systems (mostly standard artillery) being lobbed over the frontline in the Donbass and foreign-supplied high precision munitions being launched hundreds of miles onto strategic targets in Russia proper. |
Do we discount Iranian,NK ballistic missiles and drones being used by
Russia to attack anything and anybody in Ukraine? Where as the Ukrainians want to attack strategic targets not civilians!
TBF though it seems the Russians have no bother bombing their own either as being witnessed in Kursk oblast at the moment! | | | |
| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 12:31 - Sep 12 with 2965 views | Guthrum |
| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 11:44 - Sep 12 by bluejacko |
Do we discount Iranian,NK ballistic missiles and drones being used by
Russia to attack anything and anybody in Ukraine? Where as the Ukrainians want to attack strategic targets not civilians!
TBF though it seems the Russians have no bother bombing their own either as being witnessed in Kursk oblast at the moment! |
Obviously not, that (particularly the latest delivery of Iranian ballistic missiles) is one of the drivers of this change in policy.
However, it is a(nother) significant step of escalation in Western aid for Ukraine. | |
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| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 13:16 - Sep 12 with 2879 views | Guthrum |
| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 11:44 - Sep 12 by bluejacko |
Do we discount Iranian,NK ballistic missiles and drones being used by
Russia to attack anything and anybody in Ukraine? Where as the Ukrainians want to attack strategic targets not civilians!
TBF though it seems the Russians have no bother bombing their own either as being witnessed in Kursk oblast at the moment! |
Bear in mind also that we don't hear about the Russian missiles and drones which land on target, hitting military or key war industry/supply/infratructure facilities, only those which don't (some of which have been shot down). Obiously, Kyiv is going to keep the former quiet. But it creates a not entirely true media impression that Moscow's forces are wildly indiscriminate, while Ukraine's have more care for precision. | |
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| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 13:21 - Sep 12 with 2869 views | giant_stow |
If the west is going to do this, it had better crank up the missile and armament factories quick time - in for a penny. |  |
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| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 13:24 - Sep 12 with 2869 views | blueasfook |
| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 13:21 - Sep 12 by giant_stow |
If the west is going to do this, it had better crank up the missile and armament factories quick time - in for a penny. |
Why are people so scared of what Russia will do? History shows us appeasing dictators is the worst thing you can do. Putin needs.a good slap to keep him in his place. He knows if he starts anything with NATO, it's gonna end badly for everyone. [Post edited 12 Sep 2024 13:24]
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| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 13:38 - Sep 12 with 2787 views | Plums |
| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 13:24 - Sep 12 by blueasfook |
Why are people so scared of what Russia will do? History shows us appeasing dictators is the worst thing you can do. Putin needs.a good slap to keep him in his place. He knows if he starts anything with NATO, it's gonna end badly for everyone. [Post edited 12 Sep 2024 13:24]
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Indeed. Ukraine's offensive into Kursk shows you CAN invade a nuclear state.
It's also very odd as pointed out (by I believe a Lithuanian politician) that without this permission, NATO is actually protecting Russia from Ukraine whilst allowing Putin to attack them with no restrictions. It needs addressing. [Post edited 12 Sep 2024 13:41]
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| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 13:41 - Sep 12 with 2770 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 12:31 - Sep 12 by Guthrum |
Obviously not, that (particularly the latest delivery of Iranian ballistic missiles) is one of the drivers of this change in policy.
However, it is a(nother) significant step of escalation in Western aid for Ukraine. |
Is it really an escalation? Only a few days ago Ukraine launched over 100 drones to attack targets in Russia, including provocatively in Moscow. Whilst Ukraine does build it’s own military drones, they have also been supplied drones from the US and Turkey, so it’s possible western aid has already been used to attack targets within Russia.
I do hope though that Ukraine stays to military targets, and does all they can to avoid civilian casualties. We (Ukraine/allies) should not lower ourselves to Russian conduct. | | | |
| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 13:48 - Sep 12 with 2734 views | Kropotkin123 |
It's already too late and the announcement is counterproductive. Putin's response is to buy missiles from Iran. They've already had the time to move key things. One of our weaknesses in this war is how slow and public we are with changes. The majority of the time we are reactive. [Post edited 12 Sep 2024 15:30]
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| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 13:57 - Sep 12 with 2716 views | Kropotkin123 |
| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 13:16 - Sep 12 by Guthrum |
Bear in mind also that we don't hear about the Russian missiles and drones which land on target, hitting military or key war industry/supply/infratructure facilities, only those which don't (some of which have been shot down). Obiously, Kyiv is going to keep the former quiet. But it creates a not entirely true media impression that Moscow's forces are wildly indiscriminate, while Ukraine's have more care for precision. |
Depends what sources you are listening to / reading. Ukraine the latest update on successful Russian strikes. But there is a difference in that Russian weapons have been deliberately used to strike civilian targets as part of their strategy to wear down the support/morale for the war. [Post edited 12 Sep 2024 15:29]
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| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 14:27 - Sep 12 with 2659 views | bsw72 |
| West’s missile go-ahead to Ukraine would hold no shortage of risks on 11:11 - Sep 12 by blueasfook |
Hannibal? Aww, i loved him in A-Team. |
Yeah, and he always seemed to enjpy it when his plans concluded successfully, or something like that. | | | |
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