| Gary Neville not understanding football 13:50 - May 17 with 2469 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
You can't give handball if you kick it onto your own hand. Comes off Mbeumo's hip and hits his arm, he's not 'controlled it with his arm' at all. [Post edited 17 May 14:02]
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 13:51 - May 17 with 1749 views | FrimleyBlue |
I get it to a degree, but without the arm the ball just goes to the forest player to be cleared |  |
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 13:52 - May 17 with 1752 views | Scuzzer |
Are you serious? |  |
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 13:54 - May 17 with 1723 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 13:51 - May 17 by FrimleyBlue |
I get it to a degree, but without the arm the ball just goes to the forest player to be cleared |
But he did deflect the ball into his arm, you can't have a ruling that say's "imagine the players don't have arms'
If it wasn't for the deflection off his hip, that gets ruled out, and restart with a free kick. The deflection changes it all. | |
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 13:54 - May 17 with 1719 views | north_stand77 |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 13:52 - May 17 by Scuzzer |
Are you serious? |
You can see him controlling it ( however bruefly) under his arm! |  | | |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 13:55 - May 17 with 1701 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 13:54 - May 17 by north_stand77 |
You can see him controlling it ( however bruefly) under his arm! |
Does he move his arm to the ball, no.
Was his arm in an unnatural position, no
Does it deflect from close range off the player into his arm, yes
Rules is rules is rules. | |
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 13:56 - May 17 with 1695 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 13:52 - May 17 by Scuzzer |
Are you serious? |
Deadly | |
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 13:56 - May 17 with 1672 views | FrimleyBlue |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 13:54 - May 17 by Cheltenham_Blue |
But he did deflect the ball into his arm, you can't have a ruling that say's "imagine the players don't have arms'
If it wasn't for the deflection off his hip, that gets ruled out, and restart with a free kick. The deflection changes it all. |
Can you not? you can book players for making rash tackles that don't connect because they could have done.. So why can't you make a judgement about a hand ball based on what would have happened if the arm was not there.. | |
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 13:59 - May 17 with 1656 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 13:56 - May 17 by FrimleyBlue |
Can you not? you can book players for making rash tackles that don't connect because they could have done.. So why can't you make a judgement about a hand ball based on what would have happened if the arm was not there.. |
Because with a rash tackle that doesn't connect, there is intent and its the intent that is bookable.
The rule is that if the ball come off a player into their own hand, its not handball unless it is intentional, and I can't see anything unnatural in the players movement. | |
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 13:59 - May 17 with 1652 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
Where does the ball go if Mbeumo doesn't trap it between his elbow and hip?
I get that you could argue it is accidental, but doesn't the rule state that where the handball is key to a goal being scored, intent is irrelevant? (Not in quite those words, though.) |  |
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:01 - May 17 with 1616 views | FrimleyBlue |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 13:59 - May 17 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Because with a rash tackle that doesn't connect, there is intent and its the intent that is bookable.
The rule is that if the ball come off a player into their own hand, its not handball unless it is intentional, and I can't see anything unnatural in the players movement. |
Yeah true (intent)
It's a tough one, I get it's accidental, but it is a farce as whilst he didn't intend to and whilst it was accidental, the ball did fall dead because it hit is arm, that has to be handball for me. | |
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:01 - May 17 with 1634 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 13:59 - May 17 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Where does the ball go if Mbeumo doesn't trap it between his elbow and hip?
I get that you could argue it is accidental, but doesn't the rule state that where the handball is key to a goal being scored, intent is irrelevant? (Not in quite those words, though.) |
Nope. If Mbeumo knocks the ball to himself and he benefits from it, by scoring it gets ruled out for handball, but the player gained no advantage as it broke to Cunha.
Its one of those weird rules that I'm sure at some point IFAB will close up.
But in this case, the ref got it right. | |
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:05 - May 17 with 1600 views | north_stand77 |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:01 - May 17 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Nope. If Mbeumo knocks the ball to himself and he benefits from it, by scoring it gets ruled out for handball, but the player gained no advantage as it broke to Cunha.
Its one of those weird rules that I'm sure at some point IFAB will close up.
But in this case, the ref got it right. |
Are you Clive Thomas in disguise?  | | | |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:07 - May 17 with 1587 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:05 - May 17 by north_stand77 |
Are you Clive Thomas in disguise? |
If being Clive Thomas means interpreting the rules correctly, I think you are referencing the wrong Referee. | |
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:08 - May 17 with 1570 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:01 - May 17 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Nope. If Mbeumo knocks the ball to himself and he benefits from it, by scoring it gets ruled out for handball, but the player gained no advantage as it broke to Cunha.
Its one of those weird rules that I'm sure at some point IFAB will close up.
But in this case, the ref got it right. |
IF you are correct, the VAR officials don't understand the rules.
Either way, it makes a joke of VAR. | |
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:10 - May 17 with 1565 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:08 - May 17 by Nthsuffolkblue |
IF you are correct, the VAR officials don't understand the rules.
Either way, it makes a joke of VAR. |
I think it's been well established that VAR officials make things up as they go along.
Brave referee to go against it. | |
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:31 - May 17 with 1477 views | Scuzzer |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 13:55 - May 17 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Does he move his arm to the ball, no.
Was his arm in an unnatural position, no
Does it deflect from close range off the player into his arm, yes
Rules is rules is rules. |
That's the problem. The rules are ridiculous. | |
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:36 - May 17 with 1450 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:01 - May 17 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Nope. If Mbeumo knocks the ball to himself and he benefits from it, by scoring it gets ruled out for handball, but the player gained no advantage as it broke to Cunha.
Its one of those weird rules that I'm sure at some point IFAB will close up.
But in this case, the ref got it right. |
This site isn't the rulebook itself but states quite clearly: "If an attacker accidentally handles the ball and then scores OR a teammate scores immediately after, the goal is disallowed. This applies even if the handball happened several passes before the goal, as long as it is part of the same attacking phase."
https://360tft.co.uk/blog/hand
Can you point me to the actual rule which shows their interpretation is wrong? | |
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:43 - May 17 with 1421 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:36 - May 17 by Nthsuffolkblue |
This site isn't the rulebook itself but states quite clearly: "If an attacker accidentally handles the ball and then scores OR a teammate scores immediately after, the goal is disallowed. This applies even if the handball happened several passes before the goal, as long as it is part of the same attacking phase."
https://360tft.co.uk/blog/hand
Can you point me to the actual rule which shows their interpretation is wrong? |
Hold on.
I'm not the rulebook myself. I'm just laying out the rules as I understand it.
I'm certainly not implying it is right or correct. The ref himself gave his reason over the stadium PA when he gave the goal. You can even watch the 4th official explain it to Pereira if you like where he points to his hip and then his hand.
Asking me to explain the referee's thinking or 360ftf's interpretation of it won't get you very far at all. [Post edited 17 May 14:44]
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:46 - May 17 with 1390 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:43 - May 17 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Hold on.
I'm not the rulebook myself. I'm just laying out the rules as I understand it.
I'm certainly not implying it is right or correct. The ref himself gave his reason over the stadium PA when he gave the goal. You can even watch the 4th official explain it to Pereira if you like where he points to his hip and then his hand.
Asking me to explain the referee's thinking or 360ftf's interpretation of it won't get you very far at all. [Post edited 17 May 14:44]
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Yeah, I missed the ref's explanation as someone was talking over it. I did want to hear his rationale. Does anyone have it to hand? Is it what you state, because it isn't how I understand the rules. However, like you, I am not a qualified ref nor 100% up-to-date with the latest rulebook and interpretations of it.
The only thing I am sure of is the subjective nature of the interpretation of the rules is making most of VAR ridiculous and simply annoying. | |
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:52 - May 17 with 1365 views | pointofblue |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:08 - May 17 by Nthsuffolkblue |
IF you are correct, the VAR officials don't understand the rules.
Either way, it makes a joke of VAR. |
I think VAR wanted the referee to make the final call on whether it was accidental or deliberate. |  |
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 15:05 - May 17 with 1294 views | farkenhell |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:07 - May 17 by Cheltenham_Blue |
If being Clive Thomas means interpreting the rules correctly, I think you are referencing the wrong Referee. |
Irrespective of whether today's incident was offside or not, you still get potd.
The cheating welsh c-nt (not you Chelts). | | | |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 15:17 - May 17 with 1249 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 15:05 - May 17 by farkenhell |
Irrespective of whether today's incident was offside or not, you still get potd.
The cheating welsh c-nt (not you Chelts). |
Handball, not offside.
You are Clive Thomas and I claim my tin foil hat. | |
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 15:19 - May 17 with 1239 views | hunty21 |
Clear handball you can't use your arm to control whether its intentional or not VAR agreed this should of been disallowed | | | |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 15:21 - May 17 with 1225 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 15:19 - May 17 by hunty21 |
Clear handball you can't use your arm to control whether its intentional or not VAR agreed this should of been disallowed |
What does the rule actually say?
They have made an absolute hash of the rules by overcomplicating and trying to legislate for somethign which is always going to be somewhat subjective. However, if people actually read it, there woudl be far fewer arguments about handball and var.
There is nothing that says anything about "controlling it". If its not intentional, isnt the result of an unnatural arm position, and doesnt lead "immediately" to a goal then it is not handball.
Personally, I think the handball in this incident is intentional. He has instincitvely brough his arm in to stop the ball going through. If thats right, its handball. If people accept it as uninentional, then it is not.
With all that said, they have managed to write an ambiguous rule even now because they haven't defined "immediate". If the handball is the last touch before a strike that si certainly immediate- but what if its two seconds later? 3? etc
The FA, in their usual ineptitude, offer "additonal guidance".
" It is an offence if a player scores in the opponents’ goal:
-Directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper
-Immediately after the ball has touched their hand/arm, even if accidental
Mitigating factors
-Goal not immediate
-Goal scored by a teammate
-Ball not entering goal; however action of a defender
results in an ‘own goal’ "
So poorly worded. A rule that says its handball if a goal is scored immediately cannot have "not immediate" as a mitigating factor. Indeed, why are there mitigating factors at all? One might have "factors a referee might properly consider". But they have effectively ontroduced yet another grey area. However, the guidance does clearly suggest that where the goal is scored by someone else, that is a factor.
No idea, frankly, why they have complicated it so much. Just define immediate as either " the next touch" or "within 5 seconds" or whatever. Just be specific.
Or betetr still go back tot he proper original rule. Handball has to be intentional (or reckless- ie spreading oneself to block the ball) and that is a subjective decision for the referee. Done. Thierry Henry has a lot to answer for. [Post edited 17 May 15:39]
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| Gary Neville not understanding football on 15:33 - May 17 with 1165 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Gary Neville not understanding football on 14:01 - May 17 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Nope. If Mbeumo knocks the ball to himself and he benefits from it, by scoring it gets ruled out for handball, but the player gained no advantage as it broke to Cunha.
Its one of those weird rules that I'm sure at some point IFAB will close up.
But in this case, the ref got it right. |
Its a classic case of the rule being overcomplicated because people kept moaning about stuff. thereby making it worse.
I think the ref got it wrong, but on the basis that there was a degree of intent. | |
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