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Edit: To be clear, I have nothing against a second referendum. I just think it's stupid having Soros announce it and so strongly linked to it. Everyone saw the reaction when Obama 'interfered'. Having someone like Soros, who is widely considered as being out for himself, so connected to the campaign won't help IMO.
Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 19:23 - May 30 by No9
If you have as you say, travelled across the EU doing business I am surprisd you have not seen the improved social mobility in most of the countries although I do concede some from the eastern bloc will need time. But look what Spain was 40 years ago or Portugal and you can't but help see how things have improved especially for Spain who has seen massive changes.
From my perspective I have not, in the older EU countries experienced wages as low as the UK. Again I would expect the newer countries to get to modern EU standards in teh near future.
As for keeping up, I havn't been to many EU countries where the infrastructure, transport, health, schooling and communications is as backward as the UK is. But, that is my experience.
If the UK will not embrace the EU - it never has, it will never will because the estabishment won't allow it.
If you have been watching you should have noted that British farmers now have difficulties in recruiting labour from the old eastern bloc because their own wages are at UK levels or higher. - on TV this evening.
But techologically is where we really are behind EU companies (with a few exceptions) but the UK now cannot compete in most of the industries where exporting earns real money
So, are you asserting that the improvement of social mobility is as a direct result of the EU? Can you point me to that evidence?
What you'll likely find is that any socio economic improvements are in large parts ore connected with local government policies rather than EU policies or such. There are e eptions, the EU does make a point of investing in deprived areas across the EU, and in some areas that has been hugely successful but far ffrom on everywhere.
My point still stands and it's one you haven't addressed. Why, if the EU is so good at offering opportunities for those with less or in deprived areas, is the gap between the haves and have nots growing. The UKs gap is widening as it is in the EU.
For reference, look at the April 2017 study entitled Social Mobility in the U.K. Authored by messers Ludwinek, Anderson, Ahrendt, Junblut et al.
That doesn't chime with your post, for example.
Our infrastructure is not backward. The World Economic forum stated that even after the crash where levels of infrastructure investment dropped for countries like the US, Germany, France and the UK, we still are ranked 9th overall. Only bettered by the following EU countries, Germany (7th), France (8th), Netherlands 3rd. There are variances across the various areas but we are 9th in the world...to quote the WEF
"The UK ranked 3rd for available airline seats, and 9th for quality of electricity supply.
However, it came in 29th for quality of roads, and 19th for air transport infrastructure.
The UK infrastructure has one of the most developed infrastructures in the world, even when compared to other developed economies. However, the UK's rail networks are the most expensive in Europe and faces constant delays."
Or the fact we are world leaders in AI, genetics, bio genetics and diversity. We lead in Financial Technology and are a world leadin Cyber security and Fraud protection. We are the worlds lead in offshore energy production and the provision of clean technologies and energy, Forbes this year rated the U.K. As one of the best at attracting investment from abroad for example. The UK leads the way in open data as well. We could also talk about the square mile of postproduction, another technology lead.
All of this and ore despite and in many instances Brexit neutral or agnostic.
Certainly having spent time in places like Brno, Bucharest, Cluj and many cities in Poland, Croatia and France Germany etc, I'd say that that my experiences and evidence I've given above is generally right.
I'm not saying we get it right all the time but nor does the EU.
Ade Akinbiyi couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo...
Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 20:30 - May 30 by Darth_Koont
Yes, but it's hard to be swayed by the fantasy and fear of the unknown that dominates too much of the Leave rhetoric. I think a number of good points against the EU have been made but they're few and far between. And I can certainly see why people can be Leave on balance. It's the leave-at-all-costs types who see facts as an inconvenience that are the problem and they're the ones leading the campaign and the negotiations.
A discussion about the pros and cons of the EU-UK relationship would be worth having — pity it didn't happen 5 or 10 years ago. As would be a discussion of where the UK government and political system is failing its own citizens. But if you go in with a black/white view or a national or political bias then a factual discussion is nigh on impossible.
There were many discussions on the for /against of Europe in the 60's & 70's when the UK considered it was a first world country & most of Europe was 3rd world. It was an eye opener when I landed in Europe for the first time and discovered that what the British media were publishing was pure BS. It would, as you say, to look at things now & compare how things have changed. The British media & politicians still won't embrace the fact that the EU continues to grow economically with new Air, Rail, Road and Sea port projects. People still don't want to look at how much in the UK is owned by EU companies and individuals.
On the news this evening was the story about giving women sanitary products at food banks - that is something a so called 'civilised country should be ashamed of. The numbers of people now relying on Food banks increases year on year that is even worse.
Try to engage with the leave group on what they will export is nigh on impossible all they want to talk about is how cheap imports will become - that lack of realism is very disconcerting
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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 01:23 - May 31 with 3110 views
Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 17:34 - May 30 by Darth_Koont
Hehe. You're not much of a practise-what-you-preach kind of guy are you?
Well with "less waffle", the issues in Scotland are widely recognised as more structural with a lack of investment in the more deprived areas and industries. Because that's been the tone in the past 30 or 40 years in the UK where communities, regions and industries have been increasingly left to the vagaries of the free market. Not sustainable? Let it wither and die. Social problems? Get on your bike and make something of yourself. No jobs? Move.
Now as most civilised countries know that doesn't work except for those who are more easily able to access the opportunities. Through wealth, class, education or proximity to the opportunities themselves.
These are all more represented in the South East, Bristol etc or small pockets of Edinburgh, Glasgow, Birmingham, Manchester etc. So there's whole regions and communities that are passed over. These are the communities that long voted Labour in the belief that change was needed or at least someone was nominally going to stand up for them. Then came Blair and his acolytes who fecked it all up as they were seduced by the free market themselves.
Scotland had the SNP and independence as an alternative so took it. There isn't a widespread blame of the English except when these things are reduced by both sides to nationalistic gripes. No, the beef is with the political status quo that has abandoned them.
There was no way that was going to be put at the door of the EU or immigrants. Problem is that those communities in the North of England and similar haven't the "nationalistic" grounds to break themselves out of it. In fact it's been easier to manipulate their nationalism into blaming foreigners just like UKIP and other hardline Eurosceptics wanted.
But let's not hide the fact they're still disillusioned with the status quo and feel abandoned. Brexit has just bought the Westminster parties some time and some temporary votes.
I agree with most of that except potentially the conclusion - why do you conclude that in Scotland the blame would never have been laid at the door of the EU?
Not sure what the first line is in reference to - you seem to be confusing listening with having a different opinion
Highlighting crass stupidity since sometime around 2010
Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 01:23 - May 31 by C_HealyIsAPleasure
I agree with most of that except potentially the conclusion - why do you conclude that in Scotland the blame would never have been laid at the door of the EU?
Not sure what the first line is in reference to - you seem to be confusing listening with having a different opinion
I've just said why. What were we going to blame the EU for?
Pronouns: He/Him
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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 08:56 - May 31 with 3052 views
Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 20:41 - May 30 by homer_123
So, are you asserting that the improvement of social mobility is as a direct result of the EU? Can you point me to that evidence?
What you'll likely find is that any socio economic improvements are in large parts ore connected with local government policies rather than EU policies or such. There are e eptions, the EU does make a point of investing in deprived areas across the EU, and in some areas that has been hugely successful but far ffrom on everywhere.
My point still stands and it's one you haven't addressed. Why, if the EU is so good at offering opportunities for those with less or in deprived areas, is the gap between the haves and have nots growing. The UKs gap is widening as it is in the EU.
For reference, look at the April 2017 study entitled Social Mobility in the U.K. Authored by messers Ludwinek, Anderson, Ahrendt, Junblut et al.
That doesn't chime with your post, for example.
Our infrastructure is not backward. The World Economic forum stated that even after the crash where levels of infrastructure investment dropped for countries like the US, Germany, France and the UK, we still are ranked 9th overall. Only bettered by the following EU countries, Germany (7th), France (8th), Netherlands 3rd. There are variances across the various areas but we are 9th in the world...to quote the WEF
"The UK ranked 3rd for available airline seats, and 9th for quality of electricity supply.
However, it came in 29th for quality of roads, and 19th for air transport infrastructure.
The UK infrastructure has one of the most developed infrastructures in the world, even when compared to other developed economies. However, the UK's rail networks are the most expensive in Europe and faces constant delays."
Or the fact we are world leaders in AI, genetics, bio genetics and diversity. We lead in Financial Technology and are a world leadin Cyber security and Fraud protection. We are the worlds lead in offshore energy production and the provision of clean technologies and energy, Forbes this year rated the U.K. As one of the best at attracting investment from abroad for example. The UK leads the way in open data as well. We could also talk about the square mile of postproduction, another technology lead.
All of this and ore despite and in many instances Brexit neutral or agnostic.
Certainly having spent time in places like Brno, Bucharest, Cluj and many cities in Poland, Croatia and France Germany etc, I'd say that that my experiences and evidence I've given above is generally right.
I'm not saying we get it right all the time but nor does the EU.
I have never said the EU gets everything right, nor have I claimed the EU is perfect and, no doubt things could be improved. But over the time I have been workign and living both in the UK & the EU the EU has moved forward considerably in comparison with the UK. The UK has come inf or considerable criticism (internally ) over the last few years for the lack of social mobility, the bloke put into a position to deal with it resigned because he could make no progress. The growth in food banks in the UK outstrips anywhere in teh industrialised world and is now extending to include sanitary items.
Much of the economic assistance offered by the EU is either not chased up by poor quailty MEP's and as in the case of the UK rejected for political reasons. In the UK where EU investment has taken place it has often not been disclosed to the public.
Since Spain joined the EU the trnasformation has been significant - it is now a major player in the UK economy and takes a lot of profit home - that is one example.
I am not sure when the WEF was gathered but I can tell you from visiting places in the EU there has been considerably more infrastructure development than in the UK - e.g germany a new container port on Wilemshaven - new port in Cuxhaven, new port on Bremerhaven + new roads to support the traffic + redevelopment of old Hamburg with increased capacity roads to the east & west, re-development of the old Russian ports on Rugen with Hitlers holiday camp being re-develpoed + new road & rail links. New harbours in Europort NL Re-developed ports in Belgium New Ports in France + new high speed rail projects
UK rail is a total cock-up & ticketing is a nightmare. There are no UK airlines anymore (maybe Easy Jet?) the electric industry is all foreign operated.
The UK offshore industry has all but disappeared with Shell having commenced de-investment and BP having no acreage at all. Gas is broguht ashore mainly by the French, Danish,& Norwegians. The UK has no offshore development / construction capability and now most engineering for O&G is done outside the UK.
UK roads are truly third world & our privately owned rail rolling stock is made by the Canadians, Swiss, Japanese & Germans. Our motor industry relies on a just in time philosophy supported by continental manufacturers our main aero engine maker is more than 60% German owned.
Our main growing exports are militaria to Israel & Suadi Arabia
The countries from the old Eastern bloc need to start working as Europeans most of them want the economic benefits Europe brings but none of the responsibilities of making thng work (just like the UK).
Last night at the Suffolk show the Farmers admitted, it isn't just brexit that is creating labour shortages the UK can't / won't compete on wages, the conceded that even in Romania workers can earn the same, or more, by staying at home.
As far as internet speeds are concerned, what you provided shows just how bad things are in the UK best is 9th in the EU. Don't forget in the 70's the UK, Post Office telephones were world leaders. Now the UK government official standard for Broad Band is 2mbps
It is a long discussion, obviously my experiences over 40 odd years don't match yours but to continue we should not bore others but take it offline.
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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 10:12 - May 31 with 3023 views
Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 08:56 - May 31 by C_HealyIsAPleasure
What do disenfranchised people in areas of England not affected by immigration have to blame the EU for?
Whatever UKIP, England's alternative party tells them.
Added to which, I think being anti-European is already more a part of the English nationalism vibe. As you say, the Scots, Welsh and Irish don't need to look far from home or from the facts (current and historic) to have someone to blame.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 11:12 - May 31 with 2992 views
Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 10:12 - May 31 by Darth_Koont
Whatever UKIP, England's alternative party tells them.
Added to which, I think being anti-European is already more a part of the English nationalism vibe. As you say, the Scots, Welsh and Irish don't need to look far from home or from the facts (current and historic) to have someone to blame.
Surely that reinforces my point though - that Scotland voted differently to similar areas in England as there was basically a much closer and easier bogeyman to blame for all of their ills
Wales also voted for Brexit btw
Highlighting crass stupidity since sometime around 2010
Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 09:15 - May 31 by No9
I have never said the EU gets everything right, nor have I claimed the EU is perfect and, no doubt things could be improved. But over the time I have been workign and living both in the UK & the EU the EU has moved forward considerably in comparison with the UK. The UK has come inf or considerable criticism (internally ) over the last few years for the lack of social mobility, the bloke put into a position to deal with it resigned because he could make no progress. The growth in food banks in the UK outstrips anywhere in teh industrialised world and is now extending to include sanitary items.
Much of the economic assistance offered by the EU is either not chased up by poor quailty MEP's and as in the case of the UK rejected for political reasons. In the UK where EU investment has taken place it has often not been disclosed to the public.
Since Spain joined the EU the trnasformation has been significant - it is now a major player in the UK economy and takes a lot of profit home - that is one example.
I am not sure when the WEF was gathered but I can tell you from visiting places in the EU there has been considerably more infrastructure development than in the UK - e.g germany a new container port on Wilemshaven - new port in Cuxhaven, new port on Bremerhaven + new roads to support the traffic + redevelopment of old Hamburg with increased capacity roads to the east & west, re-development of the old Russian ports on Rugen with Hitlers holiday camp being re-develpoed + new road & rail links. New harbours in Europort NL Re-developed ports in Belgium New Ports in France + new high speed rail projects
UK rail is a total cock-up & ticketing is a nightmare. There are no UK airlines anymore (maybe Easy Jet?) the electric industry is all foreign operated.
The UK offshore industry has all but disappeared with Shell having commenced de-investment and BP having no acreage at all. Gas is broguht ashore mainly by the French, Danish,& Norwegians. The UK has no offshore development / construction capability and now most engineering for O&G is done outside the UK.
UK roads are truly third world & our privately owned rail rolling stock is made by the Canadians, Swiss, Japanese & Germans. Our motor industry relies on a just in time philosophy supported by continental manufacturers our main aero engine maker is more than 60% German owned.
Our main growing exports are militaria to Israel & Suadi Arabia
The countries from the old Eastern bloc need to start working as Europeans most of them want the economic benefits Europe brings but none of the responsibilities of making thng work (just like the UK).
Last night at the Suffolk show the Farmers admitted, it isn't just brexit that is creating labour shortages the UK can't / won't compete on wages, the conceded that even in Romania workers can earn the same, or more, by staying at home.
As far as internet speeds are concerned, what you provided shows just how bad things are in the UK best is 9th in the EU. Don't forget in the 70's the UK, Post Office telephones were world leaders. Now the UK government official standard for Broad Band is 2mbps
It is a long discussion, obviously my experiences over 40 odd years don't match yours but to continue we should not bore others but take it offline.
A number of pick ups from your post.
The WEF data is from 2016/17. It's interesting that your post talks about France, Germany, Belgium - what about Coratia, Bulgaria, Romania?
Spain is interesting - I grant you but only because the transformation is easier for a county that was miles behind the UK. I point you, again, to the WEF report - we have some of Europes best infrastructure (not always) - according to the WEF and other sources as well.....you said:
'As for keeping up, I havn't been to many EU countries where the infrastructure, transport, health, schooling and communications is as backward as the UK is. But, that is my experience. '
Whilst I fully appreciate it's your experience, clearly we are not backward according to a range of reports and information:
As for social mobility, I ask you again, can you point me to any evidence that suggests that the EU is responsible for any increase in social mobility?
Finally, given the UK has been part of the EU for nearly 40 years - what influence has the EU had on the UKs social mobility?
Ade Akinbiyi couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo...
Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 08:47 - Jun 1 by homer_123
A number of pick ups from your post.
The WEF data is from 2016/17. It's interesting that your post talks about France, Germany, Belgium - what about Coratia, Bulgaria, Romania?
Spain is interesting - I grant you but only because the transformation is easier for a county that was miles behind the UK. I point you, again, to the WEF report - we have some of Europes best infrastructure (not always) - according to the WEF and other sources as well.....you said:
'As for keeping up, I havn't been to many EU countries where the infrastructure, transport, health, schooling and communications is as backward as the UK is. But, that is my experience. '
Whilst I fully appreciate it's your experience, clearly we are not backward according to a range of reports and information:
As for social mobility, I ask you again, can you point me to any evidence that suggests that the EU is responsible for any increase in social mobility?
Finally, given the UK has been part of the EU for nearly 40 years - what influence has the EU had on the UKs social mobility?
You are not moving the discussoin on are you? As I said the Old EU has moved on a lot including social mobility- had you been in Europe in the 70''s you would have noticed the vast improvements in the older members. As far as the new members are concerend, most of them want to be spoon fed which is one of the arguements made by those wanting to break away. The failures to improve social mobility in the UK has been donw to the UK's education system. The EU is not, as you should see, overbearing, the UK chose to follow the Swedish - failed - model rather than the Finnish model which is a much better system. As i pointed out the bloke appointed to deal with social mobility resigned because he could get nowhere. But from the late 60's through to the mid 80's people like muself were able to achieve much more by working with non UK firms than we ever would be to have stuck with UK employers on peanut wages.
Roads, I don't know where you live but I would suggest there are few worse major roads anywhere in the EU than the A140 and the A12 from Ipswich to Gt Yarmouth. Since 2008 there has been very little investment in UK roads apart from duallign the A11?
Myself and many of my ilk will lose out livelihoods due to the UK leaving the EU.
As I mentioned earlier this is a complex subject that maybe you would like to take offline?
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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 11:06 - Jun 1 with 2927 views
Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 10:28 - Jun 1 by No9
You are not moving the discussoin on are you? As I said the Old EU has moved on a lot including social mobility- had you been in Europe in the 70''s you would have noticed the vast improvements in the older members. As far as the new members are concerend, most of them want to be spoon fed which is one of the arguements made by those wanting to break away. The failures to improve social mobility in the UK has been donw to the UK's education system. The EU is not, as you should see, overbearing, the UK chose to follow the Swedish - failed - model rather than the Finnish model which is a much better system. As i pointed out the bloke appointed to deal with social mobility resigned because he could get nowhere. But from the late 60's through to the mid 80's people like muself were able to achieve much more by working with non UK firms than we ever would be to have stuck with UK employers on peanut wages.
Roads, I don't know where you live but I would suggest there are few worse major roads anywhere in the EU than the A140 and the A12 from Ipswich to Gt Yarmouth. Since 2008 there has been very little investment in UK roads apart from duallign the A11?
Myself and many of my ilk will lose out livelihoods due to the UK leaving the EU.
As I mentioned earlier this is a complex subject that maybe you would like to take offline?
I think you've missed the point of the discussion.
Firstly, you stated that you felt our infrastructure was backward when it clearly isn't. Yes, other EU countries are ahead of the UK in some areas but not others. So, your assertion that we have a backward infrastructure in inherently incorrect - as evidenced by both the WEF and the EUs own reports - irrespective of either your experiences or mine.
Secondly, you haven't answered the main point of my question regarding social mobility. Can you point me to any evidence that changes in social mobility in countries like France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Lativa, Croatia, Romania are down to the EU as opposed to local governmental policy decisions?
Thirdly, the UK has and does invest in infrastructure, more so than many EU countries but less than others. Where it choses to make that investment is up for debate (HS2 for example) but the investments are being made and have been. You talk of A140, A12 and the A11 - all local roads to your area - there have been massive improvements for the A14 with the M1/6 interchange for example. Also the A14 at Cambridge is having work undertaken. M25 and many other arterial roads are also seeing improvements. Or updates and upgrades. But we don't have the resources of investment to do everything.
You stated that Spain and Portugals social mobility has improved in the last 40 years. The reason the debate hasn't moved on is that you haven't address my original question about asking for evidence that those improvments are based on the EU and Brussels interventions as opposed to local Governmental policies.
The subject is both interesting and complex, I agree - I don't feel the need to take it offline - nothing to hide from anyone and I think it's sensible to discuss and debate in an open forum.
By the way - you are holding up Spain in regards to social mobility:
Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 11:06 - Jun 1 by homer_123
I think you've missed the point of the discussion.
Firstly, you stated that you felt our infrastructure was backward when it clearly isn't. Yes, other EU countries are ahead of the UK in some areas but not others. So, your assertion that we have a backward infrastructure in inherently incorrect - as evidenced by both the WEF and the EUs own reports - irrespective of either your experiences or mine.
Secondly, you haven't answered the main point of my question regarding social mobility. Can you point me to any evidence that changes in social mobility in countries like France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Lativa, Croatia, Romania are down to the EU as opposed to local governmental policy decisions?
Thirdly, the UK has and does invest in infrastructure, more so than many EU countries but less than others. Where it choses to make that investment is up for debate (HS2 for example) but the investments are being made and have been. You talk of A140, A12 and the A11 - all local roads to your area - there have been massive improvements for the A14 with the M1/6 interchange for example. Also the A14 at Cambridge is having work undertaken. M25 and many other arterial roads are also seeing improvements. Or updates and upgrades. But we don't have the resources of investment to do everything.
You stated that Spain and Portugals social mobility has improved in the last 40 years. The reason the debate hasn't moved on is that you haven't address my original question about asking for evidence that those improvments are based on the EU and Brussels interventions as opposed to local Governmental policies.
The subject is both interesting and complex, I agree - I don't feel the need to take it offline - nothing to hide from anyone and I think it's sensible to discuss and debate in an open forum.
By the way - you are holding up Spain in regards to social mobility:
I have to say on the balance of your posts you don't understand the EU.
I have given you an example of one country that progressed beyond recognition -Spain, let me give you another Eire. Go back to the tiem the UK joined the EU when those not wanting to join used the arguement that the EU was comrised of 3rd world countries. & there I believe all would concede that the UK in the late 60s was far more advanced than the then EU coun tries. On that basis the EU has advanced all member states. Social mobility is a matter for governemtns who can conduct their own affairs independent of Brussels that is something people never want to understand about the EU. Have you considered the EU new countries don't want to embrace social mobility?
The EU would have upgraded the entire lenth of the A47 had it not been for the Uk governments between 1979 /1995 not accepting it. I used the A140/A12/A11 as examples because i don't know where you live & they are roads that are important to many on this forum who have to use them. The upgrading of the A14 is long overdue in fact the road when constructed was substandard. You admit we don't have the resources to imporve & upgrade roads like the M25, you must remember when John MacGregor was transport secretary he had a plan to upgrde the M25, which caused the tories considerable difficulties.
Unless you asaw what Spain, Portugal & others, inculdign Eire were like before they jpoined the EU and what they are like now then you will never have an open mind to what can be achieved by people if they wish to?
EU investments into those countries has allowed them to progress far beyond what they would have without EU investment. If the new coiuntries adopted the same positive attitude thay may make the same gains. According to what the media does show us some of the countries are doing just that.
Spain ejected their PM this morning- things are fluid and will pprobably continue to be so.
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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 11:52 - Jun 1 with 2892 views
Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 11:12 - May 31 by C_HealyIsAPleasure
Surely that reinforces my point though - that Scotland voted differently to similar areas in England as there was basically a much closer and easier bogeyman to blame for all of their ills
Wales also voted for Brexit btw
The difference is that the centralised and non-representative political system with its long-term disregard for regions, industries and communities is real.
Your trivialising this as the bogeyman as if it's some irrational fear and prejudice would be insulting. But to be fair, how would you know how real it is? You're probably living somewhere in the South East.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 11:53 - Jun 1 with 2886 views
Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 11:28 - Jun 1 by No9
I have to say on the balance of your posts you don't understand the EU.
I have given you an example of one country that progressed beyond recognition -Spain, let me give you another Eire. Go back to the tiem the UK joined the EU when those not wanting to join used the arguement that the EU was comrised of 3rd world countries. & there I believe all would concede that the UK in the late 60s was far more advanced than the then EU coun tries. On that basis the EU has advanced all member states. Social mobility is a matter for governemtns who can conduct their own affairs independent of Brussels that is something people never want to understand about the EU. Have you considered the EU new countries don't want to embrace social mobility?
The EU would have upgraded the entire lenth of the A47 had it not been for the Uk governments between 1979 /1995 not accepting it. I used the A140/A12/A11 as examples because i don't know where you live & they are roads that are important to many on this forum who have to use them. The upgrading of the A14 is long overdue in fact the road when constructed was substandard. You admit we don't have the resources to imporve & upgrade roads like the M25, you must remember when John MacGregor was transport secretary he had a plan to upgrde the M25, which caused the tories considerable difficulties.
Unless you asaw what Spain, Portugal & others, inculdign Eire were like before they jpoined the EU and what they are like now then you will never have an open mind to what can be achieved by people if they wish to?
EU investments into those countries has allowed them to progress far beyond what they would have without EU investment. If the new coiuntries adopted the same positive attitude thay may make the same gains. According to what the media does show us some of the countries are doing just that.
Spain ejected their PM this morning- things are fluid and will pprobably continue to be so.
Hmm - you appear to be avoiding the question but actually confirming an answer.
I've asked you a direct question in relation to social mobility and if you can provide evidence that the EU (Brussels) is at the centre of of upward social mobility in countries likes Spain and Portugal. As I asserted that any likely change in social mobility (upwards and downwards) is likely to be influenced by local government policies, which I can see you have now agreed is the case. So, 'how' in this instance has the EU influenced or otherwise those changes in social mobility? Can you explain that or evidence it?
You cannot blithely say that Spain's change in social mobility (or otherwise) is solely down to their membership of the EU.
You quote:
'Unless you asaw what Spain, Portugal & others, inculdign Eire were like before they jpoined the EU and what they are like now then you will never have an open mind to what can be achieved by people if they wish to? '
'EU investments into those countries has allowed them to progress far beyond what they would have without EU investment.'
I did and have - I ask you again, are you saying that their change (positive or negative) is purely down to the EU (Brussels) - are you suggesting that if it weren't for the EU the changes wouldn't have happened?
To re-iterate - your assertion about infrastructure was incorrect based on easily available evidence from the WEF and the EU itself (for which I have provided information for you to review). Your assertion about social mobility also appears incorrect (again, see the information evidence provided from multiple sources), you cannot evidence what you are proposing.
I fully appreciate it is your point of view and your opinion (and I utterly respect them and you for having them) but given you can't then back that up with anything substantial it's not going to have much weight or credence on these two subjects.
My final point on the matter is actually really simple - the EU is not wholly good or bad - there are many, many things it has been involved with that have worked extremely well and made positive impacts on. However (and we'll have a discussion I'm sure on this another day), where it is heading (more latterly with new membership countries), looking for more centralised decision making (see Wollonia and the Canadian Trade Deal), issues with currency and membership countries (see Greece and Italy) and finally quite serious issues on the horizon with at least one German bank. It's not in a very good place, and it's no longer the EU we original signed up (although we've never really been in).
Ade Akinbiyi couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo...
Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 11:52 - Jun 1 by Darth_Koont
The difference is that the centralised and non-representative political system with its long-term disregard for regions, industries and communities is real.
Your trivialising this as the bogeyman as if it's some irrational fear and prejudice would be insulting. But to be fair, how would you know how real it is? You're probably living somewhere in the South East.
I think you’ve missed the point
I wasn’t trivialising anything - just noting that if Scotland didn’t have the UK to point the finger at first then there would probably have been a higher Brexit vote there
Highlighting crass stupidity since sometime around 2010
Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 11:54 - Jun 1 by homer_123
Hmm - you appear to be avoiding the question but actually confirming an answer.
I've asked you a direct question in relation to social mobility and if you can provide evidence that the EU (Brussels) is at the centre of of upward social mobility in countries likes Spain and Portugal. As I asserted that any likely change in social mobility (upwards and downwards) is likely to be influenced by local government policies, which I can see you have now agreed is the case. So, 'how' in this instance has the EU influenced or otherwise those changes in social mobility? Can you explain that or evidence it?
You cannot blithely say that Spain's change in social mobility (or otherwise) is solely down to their membership of the EU.
You quote:
'Unless you asaw what Spain, Portugal & others, inculdign Eire were like before they jpoined the EU and what they are like now then you will never have an open mind to what can be achieved by people if they wish to? '
'EU investments into those countries has allowed them to progress far beyond what they would have without EU investment.'
I did and have - I ask you again, are you saying that their change (positive or negative) is purely down to the EU (Brussels) - are you suggesting that if it weren't for the EU the changes wouldn't have happened?
To re-iterate - your assertion about infrastructure was incorrect based on easily available evidence from the WEF and the EU itself (for which I have provided information for you to review). Your assertion about social mobility also appears incorrect (again, see the information evidence provided from multiple sources), you cannot evidence what you are proposing.
I fully appreciate it is your point of view and your opinion (and I utterly respect them and you for having them) but given you can't then back that up with anything substantial it's not going to have much weight or credence on these two subjects.
My final point on the matter is actually really simple - the EU is not wholly good or bad - there are many, many things it has been involved with that have worked extremely well and made positive impacts on. However (and we'll have a discussion I'm sure on this another day), where it is heading (more latterly with new membership countries), looking for more centralised decision making (see Wollonia and the Canadian Trade Deal), issues with currency and membership countries (see Greece and Italy) and finally quite serious issues on the horizon with at least one German bank. It's not in a very good place, and it's no longer the EU we original signed up (although we've never really been in).
I have tried to explain but you don't want to know, had you been to some of these countries in the 70's you could not miss how their lot has improved & as I said much of that has been down to EU investment in their economies often by infrastructure. I can't help you if you don't wish to accept that.
Where in the EU -except those that haven't got competent MEP's is the infrastructure as bad as it is in the UK?
I am lost relative to what you mean by social mobility, I have given you examples & told you I improved my lot due to the EU, is that a problem?
Issues like the Wollonia / Canada thing will always arise, I have a friend who has fought for years to keep Vlamms & Wollonia separate. Trade deals have to be looked at very closely currently we could be heading for a number of trade deals that will create considerablt problems in amny ways - no one wants to address these issues.
As someone who had to travels in Europe and carry, not only a lot of different currencies but also a lot of credit cards where some countries had preferences over what card to take, I can tell you practically it was real pain in the @rse not to mention a very expensive one.
The UK has never been a part of Europe and has sent MEP's to the EU not to enhance the Uk's lot but with the objective of brining the EU down.
I don't see the Benelux countries splitting & I don't see the main EU players breaking up completely, those who remain may well become stronger as they spread their investments around the globe.
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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:02 - Jun 1 with 2855 views
Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:38 - Jun 1 by No9
I have tried to explain but you don't want to know, had you been to some of these countries in the 70's you could not miss how their lot has improved & as I said much of that has been down to EU investment in their economies often by infrastructure. I can't help you if you don't wish to accept that.
Where in the EU -except those that haven't got competent MEP's is the infrastructure as bad as it is in the UK?
I am lost relative to what you mean by social mobility, I have given you examples & told you I improved my lot due to the EU, is that a problem?
Issues like the Wollonia / Canada thing will always arise, I have a friend who has fought for years to keep Vlamms & Wollonia separate. Trade deals have to be looked at very closely currently we could be heading for a number of trade deals that will create considerablt problems in amny ways - no one wants to address these issues.
As someone who had to travels in Europe and carry, not only a lot of different currencies but also a lot of credit cards where some countries had preferences over what card to take, I can tell you practically it was real pain in the @rse not to mention a very expensive one.
The UK has never been a part of Europe and has sent MEP's to the EU not to enhance the Uk's lot but with the objective of brining the EU down.
I don't see the Benelux countries splitting & I don't see the main EU players breaking up completely, those who remain may well become stronger as they spread their investments around the globe.
I have accepted that there has been improvements in those Countries since the 70's (as there has in most modernised countries). That's not my question. I've asked you to'evidence' that those improvements are down to the EU and Brussels. So far, you haven't provided any evidence.
I'm asking you to point me to some information, articles, research - anything, that will show that those improvements are down to the EU and investment - you simply stating it isn't evidence.
The difference is I've pointed you to a number or research documents and articles to support my views - you haven't provided anything - can you see the difference?
The fact that you have improved your lot due to the EU is fine, I haven't disputed that have I? But you cannot use that as standpoint for the wider discussion on the overall impact of the EU. Again, I point you to the note above.
How can you be lost on the social mobility point - in your earlier post you stated:
'If you have as you say, travelled across the EU doing business I am surprisd you have not seen the improved social mobility in most of the countries although I do concede some from the eastern bloc will need time. But look what Spain was 40 years ago or Portugal and you can't but help see how things have improved especially for Spain who has seen massive changes. '
All I have asked you is to evidence that any improvement is as a result of the EU and any investment it makes - as opposed to local government policy making. So far you haven't provided anything other than to confirm my point about the fact it is something in the grasp of local governments.
The issue with Wollonia is not CETA itself but how the EU wants to change how it ratifies such treaties....are you not aware of this?
Ade Akinbiyi couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo...
Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 11:28 - Jun 1 by No9
I have to say on the balance of your posts you don't understand the EU.
I have given you an example of one country that progressed beyond recognition -Spain, let me give you another Eire. Go back to the tiem the UK joined the EU when those not wanting to join used the arguement that the EU was comrised of 3rd world countries. & there I believe all would concede that the UK in the late 60s was far more advanced than the then EU coun tries. On that basis the EU has advanced all member states. Social mobility is a matter for governemtns who can conduct their own affairs independent of Brussels that is something people never want to understand about the EU. Have you considered the EU new countries don't want to embrace social mobility?
The EU would have upgraded the entire lenth of the A47 had it not been for the Uk governments between 1979 /1995 not accepting it. I used the A140/A12/A11 as examples because i don't know where you live & they are roads that are important to many on this forum who have to use them. The upgrading of the A14 is long overdue in fact the road when constructed was substandard. You admit we don't have the resources to imporve & upgrade roads like the M25, you must remember when John MacGregor was transport secretary he had a plan to upgrde the M25, which caused the tories considerable difficulties.
Unless you asaw what Spain, Portugal & others, inculdign Eire were like before they jpoined the EU and what they are like now then you will never have an open mind to what can be achieved by people if they wish to?
EU investments into those countries has allowed them to progress far beyond what they would have without EU investment. If the new coiuntries adopted the same positive attitude thay may make the same gains. According to what the media does show us some of the countries are doing just that.
Spain ejected their PM this morning- things are fluid and will pprobably continue to be so.
Whilst Spain has improved in general terms the unemployment rate in 1976 was 4.6% - currently it stands at ~17% with rates for young adults being much higher (>35%).
So whilst you say Spain has improved in 40 years it really depends on what metric you are making that assessment. Very high unemployment is never going to be a good thing for a country for many reasons. It's also slightly unfair to compare a Spain coming out of the Franco era with any modern country regardless of EU membership or not.
There is also the further argument on whether being in the EUR is a benefit to Spain. It might be a benefit to businesses outside Spain doing business in Spain and it's obviously a benefit for travelers but those aren't the same as being a benefit to Spain.
SB
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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:37 - Jun 1 with 2823 views
Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:23 - Jun 1 by C_HealyIsAPleasure
I think you’ve missed the point
I wasn’t trivialising anything - just noting that if Scotland didn’t have the UK to point the finger at first then there would probably have been a higher Brexit vote there
And I think you're missing the point that the reason we haven't demonised the EU is because we're more aware that the underlying issues themselves are domestic and not coming from outside the UK.
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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:47 - Jun 1 with 2813 views
Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:37 - Jun 1 by Darth_Koont
And I think you're missing the point that the reason we haven't demonised the EU is because we're more aware that the underlying issues themselves are domestic and not coming from outside the UK.
I haven’t missed that point, I just disagree with it - but probably best we leave it there!
Highlighting crass stupidity since sometime around 2010
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