| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros 11:56 - May 30 with 16825 views | J2BLUE |
Will the remain campaign ever learn?
Edit: To be clear, I have nothing against a second referendum. I just think it's stupid having Soros announce it and so strongly linked to it. Everyone saw the reaction when Obama 'interfered'. Having someone like Soros, who is widely considered as being out for himself, so connected to the campaign won't help IMO. [Post edited 30 May 2018 12:54]
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:10 - May 30 with 2567 views | Darth_Koont |
Re: your edit.
I think I misinterpreted your point when I first replied. To a large extent, I agree with you re: Soros attached to the campaign but if you're looking for someone who sees how the world works (often for his own financial gain) then he's at least a pretty good authority.
On the other side of the argument, there's Rees-Mogg (and the Cabinet too) telling people how they would like the world to work. |  |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:10 - May 30 with 2565 views | TJS |
Last time I checked it was a free country so anyone can campaign for anything as long as it does not involve violence. |  | | |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:20 - May 30 with 2550 views | Bluesquid |
I for one am sick and tired of these Russians trying to subvert our democracy.
This has to stop now. |  | | |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:21 - May 30 with 2542 views | homer_123 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:49 - May 30 by Darth_Koont |
That's what we look like though.
If the government has to sweeten deals for investment by guaranteeing profits or waiving taxes then it will. Many companies can be enticed to take those deals as they're still thinking quarters and projected earnings/costs over a relatively short term.
The long-term risk assessment, certainly for trading companies, is pretty dire. |
Governments sweeten deals and offer tax incentives all the time DK and have been doing so for years. That has nothing to do with Brexit.
Again, I point out that the long-term risk assessment could well be wrong - these are the same people that assessed that the economy would drop off a cliff the second we voted leave - it didn't and hasn't happened.
Those risk assessments are also, largely, based on the EU remaining in its current format - it doesn't factor in changes to the EU during the course of those assessments. |  |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:24 - May 30 with 2543 views | homer_123 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:59 - May 30 by Darth_Koont |
But they're not clear though. We are an island geographically but also mentally and even many sensible people are unaware of what's really out there beyond the UK bubble.
The penny may have dropped by now about our manufacturing industry but they have little to no idea that the foundations of our service economy is getting eroded by technology and the rest of Western Europe and beyond catching up.
A strong alliance and voice within Europe helped mask the loss of our historical advantages. Now apparently we're going to abandon that and re-invent ourselves as entrepreneurs in fields we haven't remotely invested enough in.
We look like an immature teenager leaving home in a strop and saying they're going to get their own house. |
I think you have a very poor view of the UK and it's people. We continue to be the most liberal, forward thinking and tolerant people within the EU if not the world. As a nation, we are far more geo-politically aware of what goes on outside the UK than many other nations.
We are not so inward looking than others either. I think you do us a disservice to be honest. We're not perfect but actually far more level and objective than many of our EU colleage countries. | |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:27 - May 30 with 2522 views | StokieBlue |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:00 - May 30 by Darth_Koont |
I think learning is pretty well understood by most Remainers.
Will the Brexiteers learn anything about anything? If we could somehow let the 52% leave then that would be great. For the most part, they're a drain on society and holding the country back. |
Are you saying you want a country where everyone agrees with you? A country where you eliminate the drains on society? For someone who has so many modern socialist views this seems a very strange position to take.
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:30 - May 30 with 2528 views | factual_blue |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:20 - May 30 by Bluesquid |
I for one am sick and tired of these Russians trying to subvert our democracy.
This has to stop now. |
He's Hungarian.
But I expect you knew that. |  |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:32 - May 30 with 2510 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:51 - May 30 by Gollum |
Either your having a laugh or you're a complete tw@t. |
To be fair there are the odd percent or two of the 52% where I woild agree with him, the ones I had to hold my nose for while voting! |  |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:32 - May 30 with 2511 views | No9 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:12 - May 30 by homer_123 |
Are they?
You're making quite a few assumptions there.
The EU is not in a great place for many, many reasons. Greece is still a thorn that hasn't been sorted. Italy, constitutionally and financially could cause all sorts of problems, still issues with one of the top 4 German banks that could cause a significant issue.
We were told, by experts, that the mere vote for Brexit would mean financial meltdown....that didn't happen and in many respects the economy is coping extremely well - would the economy be better had we voted to remain, possibly unlikely - although both are still somewhat short term but either way, the doom and distater of a Brexit hasn't materialised.
EDIT: for balance, I think the EU has brought many, many positives!
FURTHER EDIT: that poverty you refer to is actually less linked with Brexit than other factors anyway - the step back on social mobility and the gap between the wealthy and the poor is not linked with Brexit. [Post edited 30 May 2018 12:19]
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I am making a lot of assumptions but they are based on what is happening now.
On the governemtns own numbers it used to take the average Joe / Joanna 3 years to save for a house, it now takes 19.
The average wage is still below what it was in 2008.
The cost of living has accelerated to levels which are unsustainable to many - hence the considerable growth of food banks and a benefit system that cannot cope with the numbers of poor in the country.
The EU has offered a route out of this to those wishing to 'give it a go' that door will be closed and unscrupulous bosses will drive wages down and down to even lower levels. | | | |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:35 - May 30 with 2520 views | Darth_Koont |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:21 - May 30 by homer_123 |
Governments sweeten deals and offer tax incentives all the time DK and have been doing so for years. That has nothing to do with Brexit.
Again, I point out that the long-term risk assessment could well be wrong - these are the same people that assessed that the economy would drop off a cliff the second we voted leave - it didn't and hasn't happened.
Those risk assessments are also, largely, based on the EU remaining in its current format - it doesn't factor in changes to the EU during the course of those assessments. |
But we evidently had to up the ante for Nissan and they were already here.
I'm not talking about economists in this case although their forecasts will be a factor, I'm talking about business risk assessments. If your operation involves trading with the EU as a whole would you base your operations in the UK with the uncertainty over tariffs and trade restrictions on goods or potentially restricted access to the European labour market in the case of a service industry?
The problem with risk and uncertainty is that they don't have to be probable or that possible to shake confidence and have a real economic impact. It's the real-life equivalent of the hit sterling took but in this case there won't be an upside like boosting exports or tourism. | |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:42 - May 30 with 2507 views | Darth_Koont |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:24 - May 30 by homer_123 |
I think you have a very poor view of the UK and it's people. We continue to be the most liberal, forward thinking and tolerant people within the EU if not the world. As a nation, we are far more geo-politically aware of what goes on outside the UK than many other nations.
We are not so inward looking than others either. I think you do us a disservice to be honest. We're not perfect but actually far more level and objective than many of our EU colleage countries. |
I think you're living in the bubble and perhaps a London bubble at that. In Western Europe I don't see other countries behind us on liberal, forward-thinking and tolerance grounds.
In some areas, yes. In other areas, we're behind. Take a look at our investment in public services, education, health and welfare — just miles behind in preparing for the future.
And I think the rest of Europe is much more used to dealing with the reality of the world than we are. We do have a presence and connection to the world through our history and language but that's all it is. In real terms, Germany export more and have a better trading balance with Australia than we do. | |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:44 - May 30 with 2500 views | homer_123 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:35 - May 30 by Darth_Koont |
But we evidently had to up the ante for Nissan and they were already here.
I'm not talking about economists in this case although their forecasts will be a factor, I'm talking about business risk assessments. If your operation involves trading with the EU as a whole would you base your operations in the UK with the uncertainty over tariffs and trade restrictions on goods or potentially restricted access to the European labour market in the case of a service industry?
The problem with risk and uncertainty is that they don't have to be probable or that possible to shake confidence and have a real economic impact. It's the real-life equivalent of the hit sterling took but in this case there won't be an upside like boosting exports or tourism. |
They were offered a number of assurance and also tax incentives to stay - much like any large, global organisation has been offered both well before Brexit and will continue to do so long after as well.
Your point on business risk - yes, there is no doubt that it will be more involved when trading with the EU once we leave (although that's not 100% for sure as the deal hasn't been done) from a tade persepctive. So, of course the risks are going to be greater.
However, what are you risks like if we stay in the EU or join the EU currency with the situ going on in Italy for example? Or what the long term outcome for Greece? There's risk everywhere DK.
That's not to say it isn't easier to currently trade with the EU as things stand but we'd still trade with them after - it's not like trade is going to stop.
I posted ages back at time of Brexit - I had an evening out with a number of German CEO's - they weren't worried about trade or the trade situation re. Brexit at all. They all agreed that trade would broadly remain the same with some markets being better off and other less so after Brexit - they were always more worried about the long term viability of the EU if the UK left - not a lot has changed there.
On your last para - I agree - yet, the economy is doing OK, it hasn't fallen off a cliff as predicted by the economists and nor has investment in the UK stopped - so even factoring in a shake to confidence - we are doing OK. | |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:51 - May 30 with 2490 views | homer_123 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:42 - May 30 by Darth_Koont |
I think you're living in the bubble and perhaps a London bubble at that. In Western Europe I don't see other countries behind us on liberal, forward-thinking and tolerance grounds.
In some areas, yes. In other areas, we're behind. Take a look at our investment in public services, education, health and welfare — just miles behind in preparing for the future.
And I think the rest of Europe is much more used to dealing with the reality of the world than we are. We do have a presence and connection to the world through our history and language but that's all it is. In real terms, Germany export more and have a better trading balance with Australia than we do. |
I don't live in London. From a work persepctive 60% of the work we do is European or International and I spend a fair bit of my time abroad. So my view certainly isn't London centric.
How much time have you spent in the EU? In the last few years I've spent time in Belgium, France, Holland, Germany and Italy as well as Romania and Poland - from my experiences and I speak from both a work and personal perspective (having friends who live in those countries of those nations) - we are way, way more tolerant and liberal.
Investment in public services - whilst straying off topic, look at the investment in HS2 - we do invest....often in follies though but we do invest. We've been part of the EU for 40 years.....yet that hasn't influenced our inward investment has it - do you think staying in will?
I don't know Germany's trading situ with Australia so I'll happily take your word for it but are you really saying we don't know how to deal with the realities of the world better than, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Romania, Croatia, Cyrpus, Lativa?
I'd take that re. Germany and France (at times but not always). | |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:54 - May 30 with 2488 views | tcblue |
The problems I have which make any referendum a nonsense:
1) we still seem to only be able to contextualise the virtues of the leave vote as being "less immediately bad than the Remain campaign made out"
2) we still don't know what sort of leave option we want to pursue
These were questions the voters needed answers to before voting the first time, and we are nowhere near able to answer them. Which makes any kind of informed basis to make a decision completely impossible.
I don't think the genie goes back in the bottle, even if Brexit fizzles out, the stupidity of such binary politics and how both sides were 'marketed' looks like it's here to stay. | | | |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:54 - May 30 with 2488 views | J2BLUE |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:10 - May 30 by Darth_Koont |
Re: your edit.
I think I misinterpreted your point when I first replied. To a large extent, I agree with you re: Soros attached to the campaign but if you're looking for someone who sees how the world works (often for his own financial gain) then he's at least a pretty good authority.
On the other side of the argument, there's Rees-Mogg (and the Cabinet too) telling people how they would like the world to work. |
Thanks for acknowledging that. So many people just reply to what they want someone to be saying rather than what they actually said so it's nice you post that.
It's become another remainer vs leaver thread. I should have been clearer and worded it differently. My only issue is Soros, not the campaign itself. With that said i'm sure no politician wanted to risk their career by fronting the campaign but there must have been a better choice than Soros. | |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:58 - May 30 with 2479 views | Bluesquid |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:30 - May 30 by factual_blue |
He's Hungarian.
But I expect you knew that. |
He isn't Russian? Oh...ok.
That's ok then, nothing to see here.
Please move along.
Btw, he also has American citizenship with links to the Clintons and a major political party in the US.
But we all know it's ok for the Yanks to attempt to subvert another nations democracy. [Post edited 30 May 2018 14:08]
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:59 - May 30 with 2476 views | Darth_Koont |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:44 - May 30 by homer_123 |
They were offered a number of assurance and also tax incentives to stay - much like any large, global organisation has been offered both well before Brexit and will continue to do so long after as well.
Your point on business risk - yes, there is no doubt that it will be more involved when trading with the EU once we leave (although that's not 100% for sure as the deal hasn't been done) from a tade persepctive. So, of course the risks are going to be greater.
However, what are you risks like if we stay in the EU or join the EU currency with the situ going on in Italy for example? Or what the long term outcome for Greece? There's risk everywhere DK.
That's not to say it isn't easier to currently trade with the EU as things stand but we'd still trade with them after - it's not like trade is going to stop.
I posted ages back at time of Brexit - I had an evening out with a number of German CEO's - they weren't worried about trade or the trade situation re. Brexit at all. They all agreed that trade would broadly remain the same with some markets being better off and other less so after Brexit - they were always more worried about the long term viability of the EU if the UK left - not a lot has changed there.
On your last para - I agree - yet, the economy is doing OK, it hasn't fallen off a cliff as predicted by the economists and nor has investment in the UK stopped - so even factoring in a shake to confidence - we are doing OK. |
Yes, there's risk everywhere. But Nissan put a price on the increased risk and we paid it.
So we're either going to do that across the board or certain industries and companies will end up elsewhere. However you slice it — reduced overall investment or more cost getting the investment here — we lose out.
And the same losing scenario with EU trade — either the trade is slowed down by restrictions or we pay more for it.
Of course, life goes on and most people won't really feel it. But I bet it's going to hit those at the bottom hard where the margins are already unsustainable.
But instead we seem to be hoping for the best and preparing for the next best. Which is a shocking state of affairs for a mature, industrialised country which supposedly has some control of its destiny and responsibility to its citizens. [Post edited 30 May 2018 14:00]
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:08 - May 30 with 2453 views | homer_123 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:59 - May 30 by Darth_Koont |
Yes, there's risk everywhere. But Nissan put a price on the increased risk and we paid it.
So we're either going to do that across the board or certain industries and companies will end up elsewhere. However you slice it — reduced overall investment or more cost getting the investment here — we lose out.
And the same losing scenario with EU trade — either the trade is slowed down by restrictions or we pay more for it.
Of course, life goes on and most people won't really feel it. But I bet it's going to hit those at the bottom hard where the margins are already unsustainable.
But instead we seem to be hoping for the best and preparing for the next best. Which is a shocking state of affairs for a mature, industrialised country which supposedly has some control of its destiny and responsibility to its citizens. [Post edited 30 May 2018 14:00]
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Re. Nissan - you are missing the point DK - all governments offer incentives for big business to invest in their country. We've been doing this well before Brexit - you're missing the point. We'd need to do it even if we stayed in the EU- so what's your point here?
Other than arguing that Nissan used Brexit to get a marginally better deal than they might have anyway? | |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:11 - May 30 with 2446 views | Darth_Koont |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:08 - May 30 by homer_123 |
Re. Nissan - you are missing the point DK - all governments offer incentives for big business to invest in their country. We've been doing this well before Brexit - you're missing the point. We'd need to do it even if we stayed in the EU- so what's your point here?
Other than arguing that Nissan used Brexit to get a marginally better deal than they might have anyway? |
"Marginally better ..."
Well, you've decided that the risks and costs are only marginal so that's that in your mind. I don't see them the same way — and especially if they become deciding factors for many businesses and customers. | |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:12 - May 30 with 2448 views | homer_123 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:32 - May 30 by No9 |
I am making a lot of assumptions but they are based on what is happening now.
On the governemtns own numbers it used to take the average Joe / Joanna 3 years to save for a house, it now takes 19.
The average wage is still below what it was in 2008.
The cost of living has accelerated to levels which are unsustainable to many - hence the considerable growth of food banks and a benefit system that cannot cope with the numbers of poor in the country.
The EU has offered a route out of this to those wishing to 'give it a go' that door will be closed and unscrupulous bosses will drive wages down and down to even lower levels. |
All of the issues you state are correct (AFAIK), however - the point remains - these are long standing issues, issues that have been brought to bear well before Brexit - they are not as a consequence of leaving the EU.
The EU offered a route out of this? Has it? What might that route look like. We've been part of the EU for 40 years and those issues have been getting progressively worse since well before Brexit - so what's the route? What's the EU solution here? Genuine question as it clearly hasn't had the impact it's supposed to have had? | |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:13 - May 30 with 2434 views | hype313 |
The way Italy are going, they will be out before us. |  |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:24 - May 30 with 2412 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:00 - May 30 by Darth_Koont |
I think learning is pretty well understood by most Remainers.
Will the Brexiteers learn anything about anything? If we could somehow let the 52% leave then that would be great. For the most part, they're a drain on society and holding the country back. |
As a Remainer, your comments here are EXACTLY why we ended up losing the referendum, because as far as 'we' are concerned, 'they' are stupid, racist and a drain on our country. None of us made any attempt to engage with their reasons, just told them to shut up because to vote for Brexit was the most stupid thing they could do.
Some were always going to vote for it, your retired Majors, committed establishmentarians etc, but the ones that tipped the balance are those who were systematically preyed upon by austerity, these people had nothing and when you have nothing and are faced with a choice between everything remaining the same or uncertainty, at least uncertainty give you some semblance of hope.
Engage with the Brexiters and stop hurling insults. |  |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:25 - May 30 with 2409 views | homer_123 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:11 - May 30 by Darth_Koont |
"Marginally better ..."
Well, you've decided that the risks and costs are only marginal so that's that in your mind. I don't see them the same way — and especially if they become deciding factors for many businesses and customers. |
But you concede that govnts' incentivise businesses all the time then?
I ask you again then, what's so special about Nissan? Weren't Vauxhall/ GE going to pull out of the UK a few years back? We were in the EU then? | |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:26 - May 30 with 2406 views | SpruceMoose |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:24 - May 30 by Cheltenham_Blue |
As a Remainer, your comments here are EXACTLY why we ended up losing the referendum, because as far as 'we' are concerned, 'they' are stupid, racist and a drain on our country. None of us made any attempt to engage with their reasons, just told them to shut up because to vote for Brexit was the most stupid thing they could do.
Some were always going to vote for it, your retired Majors, committed establishmentarians etc, but the ones that tipped the balance are those who were systematically preyed upon by austerity, these people had nothing and when you have nothing and are faced with a choice between everything remaining the same or uncertainty, at least uncertainty give you some semblance of hope.
Engage with the Brexiters and stop hurling insults. |
To be fair, a large proportion of them are racist, stupid and a drain on the UK. I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to call a spade a spade. |  |
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:27 - May 30 with 2408 views | homer_123 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:54 - May 30 by J2BLUE |
Thanks for acknowledging that. So many people just reply to what they want someone to be saying rather than what they actually said so it's nice you post that.
It's become another remainer vs leaver thread. I should have been clearer and worded it differently. My only issue is Soros, not the campaign itself. With that said i'm sure no politician wanted to risk their career by fronting the campaign but there must have been a better choice than Soros. |
Point of order J2 - it's not a remainer vs leaver thread as far as I'm concerned.
I'm enjoying a discussing with DK and Herbs on various aspects of Brexit - that's all. It's not got petty or vindictive, there's no name calling - just people sharing their views and thinking. All rather healthy, grown up and sensible really. | |
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