| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros 11:56 - May 30 with 16827 views | J2BLUE |
Will the remain campaign ever learn?
Edit: To be clear, I have nothing against a second referendum. I just think it's stupid having Soros announce it and so strongly linked to it. Everyone saw the reaction when Obama 'interfered'. Having someone like Soros, who is widely considered as being out for himself, so connected to the campaign won't help IMO. [Post edited 30 May 2018 12:54]
|  |
| |  |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:27 - May 30 with 2125 views | J2BLUE |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:27 - May 30 by homer_123 |
Point of order J2 - it's not a remainer vs leaver thread as far as I'm concerned.
I'm enjoying a discussing with DK and Herbs on various aspects of Brexit - that's all. It's not got petty or vindictive, there's no name calling - just people sharing their views and thinking. All rather healthy, grown up and sensible really. |
Fair point. As you were. | |
| |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:31 - May 30 with 2117 views | Desmond |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:27 - May 30 by homer_123 |
Point of order J2 - it's not a remainer vs leaver thread as far as I'm concerned.
I'm enjoying a discussing with DK and Herbs on various aspects of Brexit - that's all. It's not got petty or vindictive, there's no name calling - just people sharing their views and thinking. All rather healthy, grown up and sensible really. |
You typed that reply before reading the contribution above from that moose fella, didn’t you brother? |  | | |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:40 - May 30 with 2097 views | Darth_Koont |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:25 - May 30 by homer_123 |
But you concede that govnts' incentivise businesses all the time then?
I ask you again then, what's so special about Nissan? Weren't Vauxhall/ GE going to pull out of the UK a few years back? We were in the EU then? |
Of course they do. But when those incentives increase to combat higher risk and uncertainty that has a knock-on effect in the sheer scale and value of overseas investment.
In this case the real problem is uncertainty not just normal business risk. I can't see how that won't have a huge negative effect when companies and individuals look to make sizeable and multi-million/billion pound investments and need to be confident of the value in return. |  |
| |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:44 - May 30 with 2092 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:24 - May 30 by Cheltenham_Blue |
As a Remainer, your comments here are EXACTLY why we ended up losing the referendum, because as far as 'we' are concerned, 'they' are stupid, racist and a drain on our country. None of us made any attempt to engage with their reasons, just told them to shut up because to vote for Brexit was the most stupid thing they could do.
Some were always going to vote for it, your retired Majors, committed establishmentarians etc, but the ones that tipped the balance are those who were systematically preyed upon by austerity, these people had nothing and when you have nothing and are faced with a choice between everything remaining the same or uncertainty, at least uncertainty give you some semblance of hope.
Engage with the Brexiters and stop hurling insults. |
Excellent post, I’d give this a thousand uppies if I could
It’s mildly amusing how Koont harps on about remainers being well learned yet doesn’t seem to have learnt anything from the past 18 months |  |
| |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:45 - May 30 with 2086 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:26 - May 30 by SpruceMoose |
To be fair, a large proportion of them are racist, stupid and a drain on the UK. I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to call a spade a spade. |
It’s not a large proportion though. Some definitely, but far more people for whom the current system simply wasn’t working and therefore didn’t have a lot to lose | |
| |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:47 - May 30 with 2081 views | SpruceMoose |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:45 - May 30 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
It’s not a large proportion though. Some definitely, but far more people for whom the current system simply wasn’t working and therefore didn’t have a lot to lose |
We clearly have different definitions of the word 'large'.
Might be why my wife is so very disappointed in me... |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
| |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:50 - May 30 with 2078 views | Darth_Koont |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:24 - May 30 by Cheltenham_Blue |
As a Remainer, your comments here are EXACTLY why we ended up losing the referendum, because as far as 'we' are concerned, 'they' are stupid, racist and a drain on our country. None of us made any attempt to engage with their reasons, just told them to shut up because to vote for Brexit was the most stupid thing they could do.
Some were always going to vote for it, your retired Majors, committed establishmentarians etc, but the ones that tipped the balance are those who were systematically preyed upon by austerity, these people had nothing and when you have nothing and are faced with a choice between everything remaining the same or uncertainty, at least uncertainty give you some semblance of hope.
Engage with the Brexiters and stop hurling insults. |
Thanks. But I'll do what I like.
I've engaged with Brexiteers over the past couple of years and it's like dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses — except this lot have already signed me up against my will and are going to force me to go to their ridiculous church.
If they can't take some rough and direct opinions then they'll really struggle with what's to come. | |
| |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:51 - May 30 with 2076 views | Darth_Koont |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:44 - May 30 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Excellent post, I’d give this a thousand uppies if I could
It’s mildly amusing how Koont harps on about remainers being well learned yet doesn’t seem to have learnt anything from the past 18 months |
No, I've learnt that there's literally nothing you can to say to them.
Believe me, I've tried. And others who are far more polite and wiser than me. | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:56 - May 30 with 2068 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:51 - May 30 by Darth_Koont |
No, I've learnt that there's literally nothing you can to say to them.
Believe me, I've tried. And others who are far more polite and wiser than me. |
And there’s your problem
You probably should have tried listening to them instead | |
| |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:03 - May 30 with 2050 views | Darth_Koont |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:56 - May 30 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
And there’s your problem
You probably should have tried listening to them instead |
I have listened to them. And they're blaming the wrong people whether it's the EU or immigrants.
I can also accept that what they feel is important to them but if you don't get away from that and talk about realistic solutions then nothing's going to happen.
Frankly, the discussion has all been a bit sh!t and pointless from the start when it's about really important stuff if you scrape the nonsense away. Where is the UK heading? What sort of country do we want to live in? What is the post-industrial future? What world are we building for our kids? | |
| |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:04 - May 30 with 2046 views | giant_stow |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:56 - May 30 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
And there’s your problem
You probably should have tried listening to them instead |
I listened to my 17 year old niece the other day - she's furious at what has become of the country thanks to Brexit, as are her mates apparently. They all want to leave the country.
Whether that'll actually happen is another thing, obviously.
Either way, very sad that the votes of older people who've enjoyed the benefits of being in the EU have ruined things for young adults like her. |  |
| |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:13 - May 30 with 2027 views | No9 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:44 - May 30 by homer_123 |
They were offered a number of assurance and also tax incentives to stay - much like any large, global organisation has been offered both well before Brexit and will continue to do so long after as well.
Your point on business risk - yes, there is no doubt that it will be more involved when trading with the EU once we leave (although that's not 100% for sure as the deal hasn't been done) from a tade persepctive. So, of course the risks are going to be greater.
However, what are you risks like if we stay in the EU or join the EU currency with the situ going on in Italy for example? Or what the long term outcome for Greece? There's risk everywhere DK.
That's not to say it isn't easier to currently trade with the EU as things stand but we'd still trade with them after - it's not like trade is going to stop.
I posted ages back at time of Brexit - I had an evening out with a number of German CEO's - they weren't worried about trade or the trade situation re. Brexit at all. They all agreed that trade would broadly remain the same with some markets being better off and other less so after Brexit - they were always more worried about the long term viability of the EU if the UK left - not a lot has changed there.
On your last para - I agree - yet, the economy is doing OK, it hasn't fallen off a cliff as predicted by the economists and nor has investment in the UK stopped - so even factoring in a shake to confidence - we are doing OK. |
Given that German CEO's are in companies that will largely control what UK companies do why would they be concerned at the Uk leaving the EU?
Most European Company people I know are not sure what the UK will do and are concerned about their investments in the UK if the population continues to be less well off.
Unless the supply chains and the JIT way in which manufacturing and some serives work the UK will be in for a tough time |  | | |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:14 - May 30 with 2025 views | homer_123 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:40 - May 30 by Darth_Koont |
Of course they do. But when those incentives increase to combat higher risk and uncertainty that has a knock-on effect in the sheer scale and value of overseas investment.
In this case the real problem is uncertainty not just normal business risk. I can't see how that won't have a huge negative effect when companies and individuals look to make sizeable and multi-million/billion pound investments and need to be confident of the value in return. |
But there is no evidence to suggest that the Nissan deal is anything over and above what the Government would normally do, is there?
I'm not saying that the risk won't affect those decisions DK. The point I'm making is (take Brexit out of the equation for a second) given the Greece and Italy situ, the struggling Euro and political unease across the Eurozone, would they also not have a profound effect on decision making re. Investment from Global businesses within the UK? If we hadn't voted leave we might find ourselves in the same situation but with different risk? |  |
| |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:18 - May 30 with 2022 views | homer_123 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:13 - May 30 by No9 |
Given that German CEO's are in companies that will largely control what UK companies do why would they be concerned at the Uk leaving the EU?
Most European Company people I know are not sure what the UK will do and are concerned about their investments in the UK if the population continues to be less well off.
Unless the supply chains and the JIT way in which manufacturing and some serives work the UK will be in for a tough time |
The conversations with those CEOs as interesting - mainly because their views were not Germanic focused. They could see that business would carry on regardless for all companies, be it UK, German, US - trade will continue - some will do better, others not so much. They were not worried about trade barriers with the UK - in terms of getting products and services into and out of Germany - again, the view was it will happen - too much rides on it not to.
It wasn't coming from a 'controlling' perspective at all, more 'it's how business works and operates' business is bigger than politics. | |
| |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:21 - May 30 with 2019 views | homer_123 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:04 - May 30 by giant_stow |
I listened to my 17 year old niece the other day - she's furious at what has become of the country thanks to Brexit, as are her mates apparently. They all want to leave the country.
Whether that'll actually happen is another thing, obviously.
Either way, very sad that the votes of older people who've enjoyed the benefits of being in the EU have ruined things for young adults like her. |
What 'exactly' has become of our country then Ulla - genuine question.
What does your 17 year old perceived to have changed - because for most, not a lot has actually happened. | |
| |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:22 - May 30 with 2017 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:03 - May 30 by Darth_Koont |
I have listened to them. And they're blaming the wrong people whether it's the EU or immigrants.
I can also accept that what they feel is important to them but if you don't get away from that and talk about realistic solutions then nothing's going to happen.
Frankly, the discussion has all been a bit sh!t and pointless from the start when it's about really important stuff if you scrape the nonsense away. Where is the UK heading? What sort of country do we want to live in? What is the post-industrial future? What world are we building for our kids? |
You haven’t listened to them though - the whole discussion in your eyes is based on the premise that remain is the right answer and that anyone who disagrees is wrong to do so | |
| |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:23 - May 30 with 2011 views | No9 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:18 - May 30 by homer_123 |
The conversations with those CEOs as interesting - mainly because their views were not Germanic focused. They could see that business would carry on regardless for all companies, be it UK, German, US - trade will continue - some will do better, others not so much. They were not worried about trade barriers with the UK - in terms of getting products and services into and out of Germany - again, the view was it will happen - too much rides on it not to.
It wasn't coming from a 'controlling' perspective at all, more 'it's how business works and operates' business is bigger than politics. |
& business is ahead of politics which is why the government is such a mess with brexit.
Companies already see the problems being out of a customs union is going to bring.
Politicians can't because they don't want to deal with realities, they want to push that on to A.N. Other but when they get told " it's going to be a problem" they don't want to embrace the problem and deal with it. | | | |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:24 - May 30 with 2010 views | giant_stow |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:21 - May 30 by homer_123 |
What 'exactly' has become of our country then Ulla - genuine question.
What does your 17 year old perceived to have changed - because for most, not a lot has actually happened. |
The way she sees it, the UK's already become a more intolerant, inward-looking and even racist place (she's mixed race, learning in a provincial city, living in a small town).
Honestly, I was taken aback by the anger - for her, its just a case of where to move to.
Edit: to be clear, she's not talking about concrete facts, but her perception of society around her. [Post edited 30 May 2018 15:26]
| |
| |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:25 - May 30 with 2005 views | SpruceMoose |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:22 - May 30 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
You haven’t listened to them though - the whole discussion in your eyes is based on the premise that remain is the right answer and that anyone who disagrees is wrong to do so |
That was also true of the Leave camp. This is something so polarising there's no way to discuss it. The catagorisation as remain voters as arrogant, unlistening and extreme is rather unfair. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
| |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:27 - May 30 with 2007 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:04 - May 30 by giant_stow |
I listened to my 17 year old niece the other day - she's furious at what has become of the country thanks to Brexit, as are her mates apparently. They all want to leave the country.
Whether that'll actually happen is another thing, obviously.
Either way, very sad that the votes of older people who've enjoyed the benefits of being in the EU have ruined things for young adults like her. |
What exactly does she think Brexit has done to ruin things? How does she think this will impact things for her say, 10 years from now? | |
| |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:30 - May 30 with 2003 views | homer_123 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:51 - May 30 by Darth_Koont |
No, I've learnt that there's literally nothing you can to say to them.
Believe me, I've tried. And others who are far more polite and wiser than me. |
With the greatest respect DK (and I mean this). Doesn't that not work both ways?
Can you step back for a second and ask yourself, am I open to anothers point of view? A different way of thinking?
You and I have just had an interesting discussion on the subject of Brexit - we have differing views and opinions - we clearly agree on some elements but on others we don't or see the same thing from a different angle. I don't think less of you for having a different view or perspective - nor do I think my perspective or your perspective is 100% right or wrong.
What I can say, with certainty, is that without debate, discussion, disagreement, differing views and perspectives - it would be a dangerous and less tolerant place.
I don't look at myself as either a Remainer or Leaver. I'm a human being - someone that has views (be they right or wrong) and opinions, some of which can be contradictory but I welcome the opportunity discuss those views with others and to explore their thinking.
I'd hate to think you wouldn't enter in a discussion or a debate with someone because you're only view is to change theirs, which I am sure isn't the case.
As I say, I'm not trying to be derogatory or anything akin to that, so please take the above in that context.
I've enjoyed the discussion with yourself, Herbs and No9. [Post edited 30 May 2018 15:34]
| |
| |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:33 - May 30 with 1999 views | giant_stow |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:27 - May 30 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
What exactly does she think Brexit has done to ruin things? How does she think this will impact things for her say, 10 years from now? |
I think our posts crossed - see my last one.
10 years from now? I didn't ask her that, so I don't want to put words into her mouth.
I realise this could all be written off as teenaged angst btw, but she's a bright, straight As girl whose feelings don't normally show - I take her at her word both about how she feels and how her mates agree. | |
| |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:33 - May 30 with 1998 views | homer_123 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:24 - May 30 by giant_stow |
The way she sees it, the UK's already become a more intolerant, inward-looking and even racist place (she's mixed race, learning in a provincial city, living in a small town).
Honestly, I was taken aback by the anger - for her, its just a case of where to move to.
Edit: to be clear, she's not talking about concrete facts, but her perception of society around her. [Post edited 30 May 2018 15:26]
|
I can understand that perception Ulla but as I've stated elsewhere in this thread - the reality is far from that. Pair us up with other EU countries and we are way ahead.
However, I'd be very keen to know what is influencing her perception. That would be enlightening and informative to know. | |
| |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:34 - May 30 with 1999 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:25 - May 30 by SpruceMoose |
That was also true of the Leave camp. This is something so polarising there's no way to discuss it. The catagorisation as remain voters as arrogant, unlistening and extreme is rather unfair. |
A) It’s not - I would class myself as a Remainer but I’m not arrogant enough to think I must be rights. Reality is that no-one knows how things will pan out, if the EU collapses in the coming years leave could end up being the right choice
B) The point was more in relation to the fact that for every time someone like Koont decides they’re right and anyone that won’t listen to them must be stupid/racist/insert insult here, more and more floating voters get pushed to the other side. I agree people in both camps were guilty of entrenched views but IMO remainers probably more so and more prone to personally attacking the other side, which for me was a major factor in the result. See also Trump - and yet still they don’t learn | |
| |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:49 - May 30 with 1968 views | No9 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:33 - May 30 by homer_123 |
I can understand that perception Ulla but as I've stated elsewhere in this thread - the reality is far from that. Pair us up with other EU countries and we are way ahead.
However, I'd be very keen to know what is influencing her perception. That would be enlightening and informative to know. |
I would be very angry if I were young.
For 40 odd years my gnereatoin has been able to exploit the opportunities offered by the EU, thst is to work in and move from Country to Country unhindered.
We have been able to enhance our lives and income.
That looks like coming to an end if the UK Home secretary is to be believed.
Why wouldn't they be annoyed
& now the UN tells us, because of brexit we are becoming more racist.
Nothing in that is good.
"Pair us up with other EU countries and we are way ahead" - I would challenge you on that statement. My expereinces of living & working in the EU has opened my eyes as to how far behind many countriews the UK has fallen from the 70's | | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
