| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros 11:56 - May 30 with 16829 views | J2BLUE |
Will the remain campaign ever learn?
Edit: To be clear, I have nothing against a second referendum. I just think it's stupid having Soros announce it and so strongly linked to it. Everyone saw the reaction when Obama 'interfered'. Having someone like Soros, who is widely considered as being out for himself, so connected to the campaign won't help IMO. [Post edited 30 May 2018 12:54]
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:50 - May 30 with 2585 views | brazil1982 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:26 - May 30 by SpruceMoose |
To be fair, a large proportion of them are racist, stupid and a drain on the UK. I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to call a spade a spade. |
Large proportion? So perhaps >40%? That's millions of voters you have tarnished there. Where is your proof? You have none. |  | | |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:52 - May 30 with 2583 views | chicoazul |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:08 - May 30 by giant_stow |
The odd thing is, this whole stolen Italian election (mk 2) is reminding me exactly whey I was tempted to vote leave. The EU big cheeses just can't go on ignoring the people like they are or it'll all blow up.
Having said that, pragmatism still rules the day for this remainer. |
The Italian thing is hilarious and, like the Greeks and the Irish before them, are finding that nothing can be allowed to stand in the way of German hegemony. |  |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:56 - May 30 with 2581 views | homer_123 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:49 - May 30 by No9 |
I would be very angry if I were young.
For 40 odd years my gnereatoin has been able to exploit the opportunities offered by the EU, thst is to work in and move from Country to Country unhindered.
We have been able to enhance our lives and income.
That looks like coming to an end if the UK Home secretary is to be believed.
Why wouldn't they be annoyed
& now the UN tells us, because of brexit we are becoming more racist.
Nothing in that is good.
"Pair us up with other EU countries and we are way ahead" - I would challenge you on that statement. My expereinces of living & working in the EU has opened my eyes as to how far behind many countriews the UK has fallen from the 70's |
As I posted earlier No9 - social mobility and the gap between the wealthiest and the poorest has been getting worse for years - we before we voted to leave the EU.
If the benefits of being in the EU has been to enhance our income and better out lives - then it clearly is failing isn't it.
I asked you earlier - what is the EUs great plan to improve social mobility or to bridge the wealth gap? Free movement across the EU has actually worked to keep wages lower in the country by giving businesses access to cheap labour - this not improving the income of the majority. Add to the the economic and social cost of free movement from Eastern European countries who have see their talent leave their own countries in droves and/ or seeing families live thousands of miles apart with money - what is the long term cost in that respect I wonder?
So, I ask you again, what is the EUs plan in regards to enhancing our lives? Improving income for the majority? Bridging the gap between the haves and have nots? What are we losing in this respect by leaving the EU?
EDIT: Re. your challenge - as I stated earlier in this thread, I spend a lot of time in countries across Europe doing business and I've developed long standing friendships - in my experience we are still way, way ahead of the majority of EU countries in respect of liberalism, tolerance, racism, acceptance etc. [Post edited 30 May 2018 15:58]
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:58 - May 30 with 2572 views | Archer4721 |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:58 - May 30 with 2573 views | giant_stow |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:52 - May 30 by chicoazul |
The Italian thing is hilarious and, like the Greeks and the Irish before them, are finding that nothing can be allowed to stand in the way of German hegemony. |
This is where I get seriously confused! These ignored votes are starting to look very dark and sinister. |  |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:01 - May 30 with 2568 views | Darth_Koont |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:30 - May 30 by homer_123 |
With the greatest respect DK (and I mean this). Doesn't that not work both ways?
Can you step back for a second and ask yourself, am I open to anothers point of view? A different way of thinking?
You and I have just had an interesting discussion on the subject of Brexit - we have differing views and opinions - we clearly agree on some elements but on others we don't or see the same thing from a different angle. I don't think less of you for having a different view or perspective - nor do I think my perspective or your perspective is 100% right or wrong.
What I can say, with certainty, is that without debate, discussion, disagreement, differing views and perspectives - it would be a dangerous and less tolerant place.
I don't look at myself as either a Remainer or Leaver. I'm a human being - someone that has views (be they right or wrong) and opinions, some of which can be contradictory but I welcome the opportunity discuss those views with others and to explore their thinking.
I'd hate to think you wouldn't enter in a discussion or a debate with someone because you're only view is to change theirs, which I am sure isn't the case.
As I say, I'm not trying to be derogatory or anything akin to that, so please take the above in that context.
I've enjoyed the discussion with yourself, Herbs and No9. [Post edited 30 May 2018 15:34]
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No, I agree entirely.
There have been lots of opinion and areas to address in the Brexit debate that we've all had to learn about and see how they fit into an overall picture. Although for me, that picture of us getting into a political and economic mess been getting stronger and stronger as the government struggles to even comprehend what they were so adamant about beforehand.
Like the customs situation and the effect on Northern Ireland. It's such an important new piece of evidence that you can't escape altering your view of the overall situation. And to be fair to Brexiteers no-one is pushing the "leaving the EU will be easy" line anymore.
But genuine discussion and debate look as difficult as it was back in the referendum campaign and before. Now you can only see the change in what the governments actually does and what Brexiteers start saying or stop staying. People have just got too much political and emotional skin in the game to suddenly talk in objective terms even though they are responding slowly to reality. |  |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:06 - May 30 with 2559 views | J2BLUE |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:49 - May 30 by No9 |
I would be very angry if I were young.
For 40 odd years my gnereatoin has been able to exploit the opportunities offered by the EU, thst is to work in and move from Country to Country unhindered.
We have been able to enhance our lives and income.
That looks like coming to an end if the UK Home secretary is to be believed.
Why wouldn't they be annoyed
& now the UN tells us, because of brexit we are becoming more racist.
Nothing in that is good.
"Pair us up with other EU countries and we are way ahead" - I would challenge you on that statement. My expereinces of living & working in the EU has opened my eyes as to how far behind many countriews the UK has fallen from the 70's |
I'm not being funny but you love the EU. You won't have a word said against them and take their side on every point. You're the opposite end of the spectrum to the leavers who just keep banging on about Brexit being great with no thought put into it. You're happy to assume the worst case scenario will happen without any balanced thought.
Brexit has basically become two entrenched camps refusing to listen to each other and thinking the EU is either the most wonderful creation ever or the brainchild of satan; and a very small group in the middle. There's very little middle ground. | |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:07 - May 30 with 2550 views | chicoazul |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:58 - May 30 by giant_stow |
This is where I get seriously confused! These ignored votes are starting to look very dark and sinister. |
They decided the Irish didnt understand the question and made them vote again. They screwed the Greeks into the ground after a vote, ironic in the seat of democracy. Doing much the same to Italy now.
I can't help but think Soros is not an idiot and has seen a chance to make a ton of cash somehow, he knows the reaction to his coming out for another referendum and that he is the Leave bogeyman. | |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:09 - May 30 with 2543 views | Darth_Koont |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:22 - May 30 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
You haven’t listened to them though - the whole discussion in your eyes is based on the premise that remain is the right answer and that anyone who disagrees is wrong to do so |
No, I think we've been asking the wrong question and for years too.
I've been banging on about the righteous disillusionment and disenfranchisement in this country for decades. Partly as it's been mostly a key aspect of the Scottish Independence debate, even if it applies just the same to other regions and sections of the UK population.
And it's because of this earlier discussion of the real issues that in Scotland there isn't the backlash against the EU or immigrants as the cause of our problems.
It's almost incidental that I think the EU is greatly misunderstood and undervalued on top of that. | |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:09 - May 30 with 2543 views | J2BLUE |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:04 - May 30 by giant_stow |
I listened to my 17 year old niece the other day - she's furious at what has become of the country thanks to Brexit, as are her mates apparently. They all want to leave the country.
Whether that'll actually happen is another thing, obviously.
Either way, very sad that the votes of older people who've enjoyed the benefits of being in the EU have ruined things for young adults like her. |
I'm not saying young people have no right to feel a bit cheated but I do think a hell of a lot more of them decided they cared after the referendum once the old versus young narrative had been established than actually cared before the vote. | |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:11 - May 30 with 2535 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:09 - May 30 by Darth_Koont |
No, I think we've been asking the wrong question and for years too.
I've been banging on about the righteous disillusionment and disenfranchisement in this country for decades. Partly as it's been mostly a key aspect of the Scottish Independence debate, even if it applies just the same to other regions and sections of the UK population.
And it's because of this earlier discussion of the real issues that in Scotland there isn't the backlash against the EU or immigrants as the cause of our problems.
It's almost incidental that I think the EU is greatly misunderstood and undervalued on top of that. |
Isn’t the difference in Scotland just that there is the rest of the UK to bear the brunt? |  |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:13 - May 30 with 2505 views | No9 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:06 - May 30 by J2BLUE |
I'm not being funny but you love the EU. You won't have a word said against them and take their side on every point. You're the opposite end of the spectrum to the leavers who just keep banging on about Brexit being great with no thought put into it. You're happy to assume the worst case scenario will happen without any balanced thought.
Brexit has basically become two entrenched camps refusing to listen to each other and thinking the EU is either the most wonderful creation ever or the brainchild of satan; and a very small group in the middle. There's very little middle ground. |
I am only telling you how I have benefitted from the EU & I am not selfish enough to think others shouldn't enjoy the same benefits.
I experienced the difficulties that are abound when there is now unified approach to customs matters. Anyone who has not been involved in logistics would naturally underestimate the difficulties being out of the customs union will bring, we know that from how things were. | | | |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:16 - May 30 with 2516 views | Darth_Koont |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:11 - May 30 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Isn’t the difference in Scotland just that there is the rest of the UK to bear the brunt? |
The brunt of what?
And how does Scotland differ from the North East or the M62 corridor? They've all borne the brunt of a centralised and detached government that shows precious interest in local and regional investment. | |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:21 - May 30 with 2504 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:50 - May 30 by Darth_Koont |
Thanks. But I'll do what I like.
I've engaged with Brexiteers over the past couple of years and it's like dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses — except this lot have already signed me up against my will and are going to force me to go to their ridiculous church.
If they can't take some rough and direct opinions then they'll really struggle with what's to come. |
"Thanks. But I'll do what I like", Excellent, top level, intelligent stuff.
I'll bet a few Brexiteers said the same when they were asked to vote to remain. Haven't we learned that you can't win a debate by simply shutting down the debate. |  |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:24 - May 30 with 2490 views | Darth_Koont |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:21 - May 30 by Cheltenham_Blue |
"Thanks. But I'll do what I like", Excellent, top level, intelligent stuff.
I'll bet a few Brexiteers said the same when they were asked to vote to remain. Haven't we learned that you can't win a debate by simply shutting down the debate. |
THERE IS NO DEBATE.
I'm not looking to change anyone's mind anymore. I'm just venting and maybe put some doubts in people's minds in a (very) best case scenario. | |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:39 - May 30 with 2460 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:16 - May 30 by Darth_Koont |
The brunt of what?
And how does Scotland differ from the North East or the M62 corridor? They've all borne the brunt of a centralised and detached government that shows precious interest in local and regional investment. |
That disenfranchised Scots have the UK to blame, and had a recent chance to voice that displeasure with that particular referendum and campaign. The EU therefore is seen as less of a bogeyman
That doesn’t apply to the North East and M62 corridor | |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:41 - May 30 with 2450 views | Darth_Koont |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:39 - May 30 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
That disenfranchised Scots have the UK to blame, and had a recent chance to voice that displeasure with that particular referendum and campaign. The EU therefore is seen as less of a bogeyman
That doesn’t apply to the North East and M62 corridor |
Who's not listening now? Read what I wrote. | |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:50 - May 30 with 2435 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:41 - May 30 by Darth_Koont |
Who's not listening now? Read what I wrote. |
I must have misunderstood your post - so feel free to explain it with less waffle
My point was simply that I think the reason Scotland doesn’t have a backlash against the EU or immigrants is because they have the UK as a much easier target. Not because they’ve been focusing on the real issues or debating the issue for longer
If I have misunderstood, that’s not the same as not listening btw, but 100 smarmy points for that gem ðŸ‘🻠| |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 17:01 - May 30 with 2413 views | StokieBlue |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:07 - May 30 by chicoazul |
They decided the Irish didnt understand the question and made them vote again. They screwed the Greeks into the ground after a vote, ironic in the seat of democracy. Doing much the same to Italy now.
I can't help but think Soros is not an idiot and has seen a chance to make a ton of cash somehow, he knows the reaction to his coming out for another referendum and that he is the Leave bogeyman. |
The Italian situation is slightly different as discussed here:
Here come the technocrats (prefects) again....... by BanksterDebtSlave 29 May 2018 6:57......in case there was ever any delusion that you have a 'choice' ! Demise of the Euro/globalisation part 'x'. The imposed prime minister is from the IMF......surprise!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/28/italy-president-sergio-mattarella-names-interim-prime-minister-carlo-cottarelli
"It is a stunning development less than two weeks after the M5S and the League had agreed a common agenda to form what would have been western Europe’s first populist government.
Beppe Grillo, the M5S founder, pointed a finger of blame at the markets. “People do not talk, they are depressed, because there is someone who speaks in the place of millions of Italians: the market today is the pseudonym of the most disheartening capitalism and of predation that we have in Italy,” he wrote on his blog."
.....so nothing new here then!
However if they won't allow the government to be formed after another election which is upfront about the effect the economic policies will have then you will have a point.
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 17:34 - May 30 with 2391 views | Darth_Koont |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 16:50 - May 30 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
I must have misunderstood your post - so feel free to explain it with less waffle
My point was simply that I think the reason Scotland doesn’t have a backlash against the EU or immigrants is because they have the UK as a much easier target. Not because they’ve been focusing on the real issues or debating the issue for longer
If I have misunderstood, that’s not the same as not listening btw, but 100 smarmy points for that gem ðŸ‘🻠|
Hehe. You're not much of a practise-what-you-preach kind of guy are you?
Well with "less waffle", the issues in Scotland are widely recognised as more structural with a lack of investment in the more deprived areas and industries. Because that's been the tone in the past 30 or 40 years in the UK where communities, regions and industries have been increasingly left to the vagaries of the free market. Not sustainable? Let it wither and die. Social problems? Get on your bike and make something of yourself. No jobs? Move.
Now as most civilised countries know that doesn't work except for those who are more easily able to access the opportunities. Through wealth, class, education or proximity to the opportunities themselves.
These are all more represented in the South East, Bristol etc or small pockets of Edinburgh, Glasgow, Birmingham, Manchester etc. So there's whole regions and communities that are passed over. These are the communities that long voted Labour in the belief that change was needed or at least someone was nominally going to stand up for them. Then came Blair and his acolytes who fecked it all up as they were seduced by the free market themselves.
Scotland had the SNP and independence as an alternative so took it. There isn't a widespread blame of the English except when these things are reduced by both sides to nationalistic gripes. No, the beef is with the political status quo that has abandoned them.
There was no way that was going to be put at the door of the EU or immigrants. Problem is that those communities in the North of England and similar haven't the "nationalistic" grounds to break themselves out of it. In fact it's been easier to manipulate their nationalism into blaming foreigners just like UKIP and other hardline Eurosceptics wanted.
But let's not hide the fact they're still disillusioned with the status quo and feel abandoned. Brexit has just bought the Westminster parties some time and some temporary votes. | |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 18:50 - May 30 with 2342 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 14:51 - May 30 by Darth_Koont |
No, I've learnt that there's literally nothing you can to say to them.
Believe me, I've tried. And others who are far more polite and wiser than me. |
Tbf, you have to acknowledge this goes both ways. Both sides are firmly entrenched in their views. |  |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 19:23 - May 30 with 2325 views | No9 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:56 - May 30 by homer_123 |
As I posted earlier No9 - social mobility and the gap between the wealthiest and the poorest has been getting worse for years - we before we voted to leave the EU.
If the benefits of being in the EU has been to enhance our income and better out lives - then it clearly is failing isn't it.
I asked you earlier - what is the EUs great plan to improve social mobility or to bridge the wealth gap? Free movement across the EU has actually worked to keep wages lower in the country by giving businesses access to cheap labour - this not improving the income of the majority. Add to the the economic and social cost of free movement from Eastern European countries who have see their talent leave their own countries in droves and/ or seeing families live thousands of miles apart with money - what is the long term cost in that respect I wonder?
So, I ask you again, what is the EUs plan in regards to enhancing our lives? Improving income for the majority? Bridging the gap between the haves and have nots? What are we losing in this respect by leaving the EU?
EDIT: Re. your challenge - as I stated earlier in this thread, I spend a lot of time in countries across Europe doing business and I've developed long standing friendships - in my experience we are still way, way ahead of the majority of EU countries in respect of liberalism, tolerance, racism, acceptance etc. [Post edited 30 May 2018 15:58]
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If you have as you say, travelled across the EU doing business I am surprisd you have not seen the improved social mobility in most of the countries although I do concede some from the eastern bloc will need time. But look what Spain was 40 years ago or Portugal and you can't but help see how things have improved especially for Spain who has seen massive changes.
From my perspective I have not, in the older EU countries experienced wages as low as the UK. Again I would expect the newer countries to get to modern EU standards in teh near future.
As for keeping up, I havn't been to many EU countries where the infrastructure, transport, health, schooling and communications is as backward as the UK is. But, that is my experience.
If the UK will not embrace the EU - it never has, it will never will because the estabishment won't allow it.
If you have been watching you should have noted that British farmers now have difficulties in recruiting labour from the old eastern bloc because their own wages are at UK levels or higher. - on TV this evening.
But techologically is where we really are behind EU companies (with a few exceptions) but the UK now cannot compete in most of the industries where exporting earns real money | | | |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 19:24 - May 30 with 2316 views | SpruceMoose |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 15:50 - May 30 by brazil1982 |
Large proportion? So perhaps >40%? That's millions of voters you have tarnished there. Where is your proof? You have none. |
Triggered! |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 19:36 - May 30 with 2313 views | brazil1982 |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 19:24 - May 30 by SpruceMoose |
Triggered! |
Eh? | | | |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 20:30 - May 30 with 2293 views | Darth_Koont |
| Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 18:50 - May 30 by Swansea_Blue |
Tbf, you have to acknowledge this goes both ways. Both sides are firmly entrenched in their views. |
Yes, but it's hard to be swayed by the fantasy and fear of the unknown that dominates too much of the Leave rhetoric. I think a number of good points against the EU have been made but they're few and far between. And I can certainly see why people can be Leave on balance. It's the leave-at-all-costs types who see facts as an inconvenience that are the problem and they're the ones leading the campaign and the negotiations.
A discussion about the pros and cons of the EU-UK relationship would be worth having — pity it didn't happen 5 or 10 years ago. As would be a discussion of where the UK government and political system is failing its own citizens. But if you go in with a black/white view or a national or political bias then a factual discussion is nigh on impossible. | |
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