| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote 23:45 - Sep 8 with 42498 views | ElderGrizzly |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:58 - Sep 11 with 2285 views | CoachRob |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:28 - Sep 11 by Gromheort |
Given there are too many variables at play, there's no magic figure for 'excessive borrowing'. That's the whole point. Rather than refer to any credible macroeconomics, economic psychology has twisted our understanding towards seeing things in terms of individual debt and how weighty our wallets are.
None of this is new. Take monetarism. That said the government should shy away from fiscal stimuli. Expenditure merely creates inflation. You need to simply focus on labour market flexibility, providing a mechanism to reduce the natural rate of unemployment. End result? Thatcher quadrupled unemployment and destroyed the industrial base. On the bright side, Ghost Town is a good song and Ipswich got some more shiny insurance buildings to add to Willis Faber. |
Where do people think the government spends its money? Been doing a lot of work on the relationship between 1929 crash and today. Low unemployment and inflation with US gov running a gov surplus during 1920's. Hammond wants to run a surplus, basic accounting says a surplus in one sector creates a deficit in another - i.e private sector. |  | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:59 - Sep 11 with 2284 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:49 - Sep 11 by StokieBlue |
You've not answered the question and attempted to obfiscate again. I asked your opinion on what would constitute excessive borrowing on the national level and you start talking about individual debt.
"That said the government should shy away from fiscal stimuli. Expenditure merely creates inflation."
You want to expand on this a bit? Labour are planning a lot of expenditure so it would seem counter to your position.
You did well to get Thatcher into your response though, top marks for that.
SB |
You don't understand a simple point and then blame me for it? Sweet!
I used individual debt to describe how macroeconomic analysis was corrupted by the likes of Friedman. They took neo-Keynesianism, itself a means to find an orthodoxy between microeconomics and macroeconomics, to derive a microeconomic foundations spine that ignored Keynes' insights. That spine has become part of orthodox dialogue since the late 70s, leading the individual person to believe government debt can be treated in the same way as individual debt. It cannot. We of course saw that with austerity. Corrupting macroeconomic policy, debt actually increased (as growth and tax revenues were necessarily restricted).
Monetarism demonstrated the stupidity of right wing economics. That stupidity was maintained with supply side economics. And its was further deepened with austerity.
I'll make it easy for you: a vote for New Labour or the Tories was essentially a vote against economic rationality. |  | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:02 - Sep 11 with 2274 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:58 - Sep 11 by CoachRob |
Where do people think the government spends its money? Been doing a lot of work on the relationship between 1929 crash and today. Low unemployment and inflation with US gov running a gov surplus during 1920's. Hammond wants to run a surplus, basic accounting says a surplus in one sector creates a deficit in another - i.e private sector. |
I'd be interested in your Post-Keynesianism. I'm no expert on that stuff. As a nipper student they only touched on it. They were too excited with guff on rational expectations and comparing New Keynesians and the New Classical.
Would you see the problem as market concentration, with that generating cost-plus pricing that leads to threats such as stagflation (increasing the importance of all forms of interventionism)? Or am I way wide of the mark? | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:19 - Sep 11 with 2235 views | No9 |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 02:26 - Sep 11 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Rather annoying too that some of the extremes of the current austerity approach could probably be reigned in a bit if there was any semblance of an effective opposition currently |
Considerign the parlous state of the UK economy
How? |  | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:21 - Sep 11 with 2236 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:59 - Sep 11 by Gromheort |
You don't understand a simple point and then blame me for it? Sweet!
I used individual debt to describe how macroeconomic analysis was corrupted by the likes of Friedman. They took neo-Keynesianism, itself a means to find an orthodoxy between microeconomics and macroeconomics, to derive a microeconomic foundations spine that ignored Keynes' insights. That spine has become part of orthodox dialogue since the late 70s, leading the individual person to believe government debt can be treated in the same way as individual debt. It cannot. We of course saw that with austerity. Corrupting macroeconomic policy, debt actually increased (as growth and tax revenues were necessarily restricted).
Monetarism demonstrated the stupidity of right wing economics. That stupidity was maintained with supply side economics. And its was further deepened with austerity.
I'll make it easy for you: a vote for New Labour or the Tories was essentially a vote against economic rationality. |
It's not a matter of not understanding, you just don't answer the questions put to you and then accuse the other poster of not understanding.
It's incredibly frustrating,
You've still not answered the original question either. You've given a lovely economic spiel explaining the world as you see it but it's not what was asked.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:03 - Sep 11 with 2194 views | CoachRob |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:02 - Sep 11 by Gromheort |
I'd be interested in your Post-Keynesianism. I'm no expert on that stuff. As a nipper student they only touched on it. They were too excited with guff on rational expectations and comparing New Keynesians and the New Classical.
Would you see the problem as market concentration, with that generating cost-plus pricing that leads to threats such as stagflation (increasing the importance of all forms of interventionism)? Or am I way wide of the mark? |
Stagflation is word I'm hearing a lot from market analysis as oil hits nearly $80 a barrel (the right will be hawking for war with Iran and Venezuela), I personally think they are overlooking the role of private debt. Cheap credit (QE) has allowed the phenomenon of zombie companies that aren't productive or innovative. The drag on the economy could go on for decades (see Japan) if a policy of private deleveraging is not adopted. Keynes stated that output and employment results from investment - something sadly lacking in the UK.
Sorry you had to learn money multiplier, barter modelling and how people choose to be unemployed but Rethinking Economics is trying to add a element of critical thinking to economics "training". | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:09 - Sep 11 with 2191 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:21 - Sep 11 by StokieBlue |
It's not a matter of not understanding, you just don't answer the questions put to you and then accuse the other poster of not understanding.
It's incredibly frustrating,
You've still not answered the original question either. You've given a lovely economic spiel explaining the world as you see it but it's not what was asked.
SB |
Here's a summary...
'What's excessive borrowing?'
'There's no such concept, given there are numerous macroeconomic variables that determine optimal macro policy'
'Yeah but, yeah but, what's excessive borrowing?'
'Already told you, that can't be answered. There is no ahistorical figure. Any suggestion otherwise reflects microeconomic (individual debt) corruption of macroeconomic analysis. The increase in public debt resulting from austerity demonstrates that.'
'Just answer the question, what's excessive borrowing?' | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:17 - Sep 11 with 2174 views | lowhouseblue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:09 - Sep 11 by Gromheort |
Here's a summary...
'What's excessive borrowing?'
'There's no such concept, given there are numerous macroeconomic variables that determine optimal macro policy'
'Yeah but, yeah but, what's excessive borrowing?'
'Already told you, that can't be answered. There is no ahistorical figure. Any suggestion otherwise reflects microeconomic (individual debt) corruption of macroeconomic analysis. The increase in public debt resulting from austerity demonstrates that.'
'Just answer the question, what's excessive borrowing?' |
do you not think that analysis of aggregate demand might give us some clues? what about an economy already running a £100bn budget deficit, near zero interest rates, an independent central bank and with full or over-full employment? is there really nothing you can say about an appropriate level of additional borrowing? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:19 - Sep 11 with 2169 views | lowhouseblue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:21 - Sep 11 by StokieBlue |
It's not a matter of not understanding, you just don't answer the questions put to you and then accuse the other poster of not understanding.
It's incredibly frustrating,
You've still not answered the original question either. You've given a lovely economic spiel explaining the world as you see it but it's not what was asked.
SB |
i'm afraid it's a tactic people use when they've memorised important sounding words but don't know how to apply them. [Post edited 11 Sep 2018 12:32]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:21 - Sep 11 with 2165 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:17 - Sep 11 by lowhouseblue |
do you not think that analysis of aggregate demand might give us some clues? what about an economy already running a £100bn budget deficit, near zero interest rates, an independent central bank and with full or over-full employment? is there really nothing you can say about an appropriate level of additional borrowing? |
Already referred to issues over overheating. Keep up now! I appreciate it isn't our fault. Chris Leslie didn't feed you any sense. | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:22 - Sep 11 with 2159 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:09 - Sep 11 by Gromheort |
Here's a summary...
'What's excessive borrowing?'
'There's no such concept, given there are numerous macroeconomic variables that determine optimal macro policy'
'Yeah but, yeah but, what's excessive borrowing?'
'Already told you, that can't be answered. There is no ahistorical figure. Any suggestion otherwise reflects microeconomic (individual debt) corruption of macroeconomic analysis. The increase in public debt resulting from austerity demonstrates that.'
'Just answer the question, what's excessive borrowing?' |
From your first exchange with Sparks the implication (well my understanding) is that the borrowing figures in Labours manifesto must be less than what you consider excessive borrowing so we can establish a lower limit. Is that the case?
It's then up to you to establish an upper limit which you think would pay for the manifesto commitments. This can't be the lower limit because lots of spending wasn't covered in the manifesto as highlighted by the IFS.
If you don't want to answer the question then that's absolutely fine. However, there is no real need at all to launch into an essay on economic theorem to avoid giving a number.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:29 - Sep 11 with 2146 views | CoachRob |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:21 - Sep 11 by StokieBlue |
It's not a matter of not understanding, you just don't answer the questions put to you and then accuse the other poster of not understanding.
It's incredibly frustrating,
You've still not answered the original question either. You've given a lovely economic spiel explaining the world as you see it but it's not what was asked.
SB |
Government borrowing can actually be non interest bearing US Greenbacks and UK Bradburys however this is not profitable for the private sector so we have interest bearing bonds and gilts. The BoE owns 25% of this debt and pension funds and other financial institutions buy this debt (essentially we own the debt).
The question of who owns the debt is more important that the scale as the BoJ can print money into infinity (Japan at 350% of GDP). The sovereign debt crisis in Argentina, Turkey, South Africa and Indonesia is caused by owing debt in a non-sovereign currency e.g Dollar. We see yields in UK bonds falling whilst total debt continues to rise so the market prices our debt as low risk of default. | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:30 - Sep 11 with 2144 views | lowhouseblue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:21 - Sep 11 by Gromheort |
Already referred to issues over overheating. Keep up now! I appreciate it isn't our fault. Chris Leslie didn't feed you any sense. |
excellent, so that gives you some tools to work with in defining excessive borrowing in particular circumstances. if you re-write your essay i'll give it another look. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:30 - Sep 11 with 2144 views | giant_stow |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:21 - Sep 11 by Gromheort |
Already referred to issues over overheating. Keep up now! I appreciate it isn't our fault. Chris Leslie didn't feed you any sense. |
the more you patronise, the less legitimate you seem. |  |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:37 - Sep 11 with 2122 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:22 - Sep 11 by StokieBlue |
From your first exchange with Sparks the implication (well my understanding) is that the borrowing figures in Labours manifesto must be less than what you consider excessive borrowing so we can establish a lower limit. Is that the case?
It's then up to you to establish an upper limit which you think would pay for the manifesto commitments. This can't be the lower limit because lots of spending wasn't covered in the manifesto as highlighted by the IFS.
If you don't want to answer the question then that's absolutely fine. However, there is no real need at all to launch into an essay on economic theorem to avoid giving a number.
SB |
You could improve on your reading. I rejected his premise of excessive borrowing. I did that as I also rejected austerity, an approach which makes such claims by ignoring macroeconomic reality (I also demonstrated the history of economic thought, showing how we can still blame the likes of Friedman).
Continuing asking me to provide a figure, when such a figure is against economic sense, is not cunning. There is no ahistocial figure. It depends on numerous variable. For example, borrowing during overheating is unlikely to be rational. It will further inflame inflationary pressures. But should we increase borrowing now? Even that isn't straightforward. The present regime, due to macro mismanagement, has automatically had to increase borrowing and debt. However spending towards a national investment bank does make sense. The UK economy is structurally flawed, with too much reliance on the financial sector. Replicating some aspects of the German economy does make sense. | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:49 - Sep 11 with 2089 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:37 - Sep 11 by Gromheort |
You could improve on your reading. I rejected his premise of excessive borrowing. I did that as I also rejected austerity, an approach which makes such claims by ignoring macroeconomic reality (I also demonstrated the history of economic thought, showing how we can still blame the likes of Friedman).
Continuing asking me to provide a figure, when such a figure is against economic sense, is not cunning. There is no ahistocial figure. It depends on numerous variable. For example, borrowing during overheating is unlikely to be rational. It will further inflame inflationary pressures. But should we increase borrowing now? Even that isn't straightforward. The present regime, due to macro mismanagement, has automatically had to increase borrowing and debt. However spending towards a national investment bank does make sense. The UK economy is structurally flawed, with too much reliance on the financial sector. Replicating some aspects of the German economy does make sense. |
Have you noticed that the first line of nearly all your posts is a dig at the poster you are replying to?
If a figure makes no sense why is there a borrowing figure in the Labour manifesto? We know you support the manifesto so you must at least consider that figure below any excessive borrowing threshold.
Anyway, once again this is pointless. Enjoy your day trolling around the internet.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:56 - Sep 11 with 2070 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:49 - Sep 11 by StokieBlue |
Have you noticed that the first line of nearly all your posts is a dig at the poster you are replying to?
If a figure makes no sense why is there a borrowing figure in the Labour manifesto? We know you support the manifesto so you must at least consider that figure below any excessive borrowing threshold.
Anyway, once again this is pointless. Enjoy your day trolling around the internet.
SB |
Labour go for full costing as a means to counter the overspending narrative.Bit obvious really.
This is about how you have been fed a fallacy: that macro policy can be understood in the same terms as you budgeting for your monthly black jacks. I appreciate that's difficult to hear. It's worse for me. I prefer mojos. | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 13:05 - Sep 11 with 2046 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:56 - Sep 11 by Gromheort |
Labour go for full costing as a means to counter the overspending narrative.Bit obvious really.
This is about how you have been fed a fallacy: that macro policy can be understood in the same terms as you budgeting for your monthly black jacks. I appreciate that's difficult to hear. It's worse for me. I prefer mojos. |
"Labour go for full costing as a means to counter the overspending narrative.Bit obvious really."
That's interesting. Firstly because it hasn't in any way countered the overspending narrative, if anything people are even more worried about the costs shown. Furthermore a lot of costs were missing from the "costings document" such as the cost of renationalisation of the water companies amongst other things.
Whilst I do think it's good Labour attempted to cost out their manifesto the numbers have been thoroughly discounted by the IFS. It's actually very annoying to hear hardened Labour supporters constantly point to the document as if it was gospel because it was issued by their party when it's been shown to be highly flawed.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 13:11 - Sep 11 with 2026 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 13:05 - Sep 11 by StokieBlue |
"Labour go for full costing as a means to counter the overspending narrative.Bit obvious really."
That's interesting. Firstly because it hasn't in any way countered the overspending narrative, if anything people are even more worried about the costs shown. Furthermore a lot of costs were missing from the "costings document" such as the cost of renationalisation of the water companies amongst other things.
Whilst I do think it's good Labour attempted to cost out their manifesto the numbers have been thoroughly discounted by the IFS. It's actually very annoying to hear hardened Labour supporters constantly point to the document as if it was gospel because it was issued by their party when it's been shown to be highly flawed.
SB |
The manifesto was very popular. Let's not kid ourselves. Folk didn't reject it because of the costs, nor did they reject the costing.
It arguably didn't go far enough. The national investment bank, as a means to also support regional policy, is more like it. Of course, with its focus on social return rather than private return, that's another spanner in the austerity spokes. | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 13:17 - Sep 11 with 2009 views | hype313 |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 13:11 - Sep 11 by Gromheort |
The manifesto was very popular. Let's not kid ourselves. Folk didn't reject it because of the costs, nor did they reject the costing.
It arguably didn't go far enough. The national investment bank, as a means to also support regional policy, is more like it. Of course, with its focus on social return rather than private return, that's another spanner in the austerity spokes. |
Not that popular, otherwise they would be in power. |  |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 13:21 - Sep 11 with 1996 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 13:17 - Sep 11 by hype313 |
Not that popular, otherwise they would be in power. |
They will be with the next, more innovative, version. | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 13:22 - Sep 11 with 1992 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 13:11 - Sep 11 by Gromheort |
The manifesto was very popular. Let's not kid ourselves. Folk didn't reject it because of the costs, nor did they reject the costing.
It arguably didn't go far enough. The national investment bank, as a means to also support regional policy, is more like it. Of course, with its focus on social return rather than private return, that's another spanner in the austerity spokes. |
"The manifesto was very popular. Let's not kid ourselves. Folk didn't reject it because of the costs, nor did they reject the costing."
Within your circles I am sure it was. You can see from this thread people still have concerns on the costs of the policies in the manifesto and let's not forget that even with the totally rubbish Tories, Labour aren't in government. You've once again stated your opinion as fact.
"It arguably didn't go far enough. The national investment bank, as a means to also support regional policy, is more like it. Of course, with its focus on social return rather than private return, that's another spanner in the austerity spokes."
Opinion.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 13:22 - Sep 11 with 1989 views | lowhouseblue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 13:17 - Sep 11 by hype313 |
Not that popular, otherwise they would be in power. |
more a case of may being very unpopular. and funnily enough she was miles ahead until she started talking about a form of wealth tax. so the thing that turned the election was the one corbynite thing that the tories came up with. ironic really (for those who get irony). | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 13:24 - Sep 11 with 1979 views | hype313 |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 13:21 - Sep 11 by Gromheort |
They will be with the next, more innovative, version. |
Hmmm, ok. | |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 13:25 - Sep 11 with 1974 views | CoachRob |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 13:05 - Sep 11 by StokieBlue |
"Labour go for full costing as a means to counter the overspending narrative.Bit obvious really."
That's interesting. Firstly because it hasn't in any way countered the overspending narrative, if anything people are even more worried about the costs shown. Furthermore a lot of costs were missing from the "costings document" such as the cost of renationalisation of the water companies amongst other things.
Whilst I do think it's good Labour attempted to cost out their manifesto the numbers have been thoroughly discounted by the IFS. It's actually very annoying to hear hardened Labour supporters constantly point to the document as if it was gospel because it was issued by their party when it's been shown to be highly flawed.
SB |
You trust the Institute for Fiscal Studies? Why not get KPMG to run the rule over the costings - management accountants not economists? Amazing that people think economists understand money - Paul Johnson who runs IFS studied PPE not accountancy. | | | |
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