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Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 09:43 - Sep 14 by Darth_Koont
"Most decent people seem to be able to criticise Israel without being antisemitic."
You casually spout this line but it doesn't hold up. Please show me criticism of Israel that hasn't been turned into an accusation of antisemitism.
Some blioke called GlasgowBlue did exactly that last month and no one accused him of be it antisemitic.
Where has Zed's thread gone? by GlasgowBlue14 Aug 2018 17:57 Legitimate criticism of Israel is perfectly acceptable. No one on here has said anything to the contrary. And with Bibi in power legitimate criticism is very important. The man is a monster and is a roadblock to any peaceful solution. You can say that Israel is acting in an appalling manner with regards to the blockade of Gaza. You can say that the latest legislation that makes Arabs living ion Israel into second class citizens is racist legislation. The illegal Israeli settlements are a disgrace and should be bulldozed and the occupants forcibly removed. There I’ve just said it. It’s not anti-Semitic.
In fact the IHRA definition clearly says that “criticism of Israel similar to that levelled against any other country cannot be regarded as anti-Semitic”.
Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 09:46 - Sep 14 by GlasgowBlue
What elected position of the Palestinian people does self confessed holocaust denier Paul Eisen hold?
I know Eisen’s group was seen as so antisemitic that it was disowned by the mainstream Palestinian Solidarity Campaign in 2007, and I know Jezza continued to attend their meetings right up until 2013 but I’m sure Eisen never held any elected position as a representative of the Palestinian people.
Damn. I said I wouldn’t comment again.
.......you are rather prone to selective/convenient 'silences'.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 09:51 - Sep 14 by BanksterDebtSlave
You didn't read the assassination list then. You don't think a state that does this would use other underhand means.... strong lobbying I think you refer to it as!
smear and supposition - you have nothing else. and on that basis you excuse and turn a blind eye to proven anti-semitism. let's leave it there.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
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Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 10:09 - Sep 14 with 2104 views
Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 09:53 - Sep 14 by GlasgowBlue
Some blioke called GlasgowBlue did exactly that last month and no one accused him of be it antisemitic.
Where has Zed's thread gone? by GlasgowBlue14 Aug 2018 17:57 Legitimate criticism of Israel is perfectly acceptable. No one on here has said anything to the contrary. And with Bibi in power legitimate criticism is very important. The man is a monster and is a roadblock to any peaceful solution. You can say that Israel is acting in an appalling manner with regards to the blockade of Gaza. You can say that the latest legislation that makes Arabs living ion Israel into second class citizens is racist legislation. The illegal Israeli settlements are a disgrace and should be bulldozed and the occupants forcibly removed. There I’ve just said it. It’s not anti-Semitic.
In fact the IHRA definition clearly says that “criticism of Israel similar to that levelled against any other country cannot be regarded as anti-Semitic”.
You are both dishonest and disingenuous and your constant dismal of genuine fears of antisemitusm is an utter disgrace.
Now I have work to do.
Eh? You've just pointed at Peter Tatchell saying the same as you.
I'm looking for criticism of Israel that hasn't been turned into an accusation of antisemitism. The issue of supposedly applying double standards is a case in point. Any targeted criticism of Israel quickly becomes "singling Israel out" and hence antisemitic. Trying to formalise"whataboutery" as a defence against criticism is utterly disingenuous.
It also ignores the fact that the Israel-Palestine conflict is well within our western sphere as it involves an awful lot of money and political support coming from the West. So why shouldn't people be critical of what they see as oppression and racism on the part of the Israeli government both currently and historically without being accused of double standards?
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Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 10:12 - Sep 14 with 2092 views
Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 10:09 - Sep 14 by Darth_Koont
Eh? You've just pointed at Peter Tatchell saying the same as you.
I'm looking for criticism of Israel that hasn't been turned into an accusation of antisemitism. The issue of supposedly applying double standards is a case in point. Any targeted criticism of Israel quickly becomes "singling Israel out" and hence antisemitic. Trying to formalise"whataboutery" as a defence against criticism is utterly disingenuous.
It also ignores the fact that the Israel-Palestine conflict is well within our western sphere as it involves an awful lot of money and political support coming from the West. So why shouldn't people be critical of what they see as oppression and racism on the part of the Israeli government both currently and historically without being accused of double standards?
"So why shouldn't people be critical of what they see as oppression and racism on the part of the Israeli government both currently and historically without being accused of double standards?"
As far as I'm concerned, you can and should do that that, but that should have nothing to do uk jews complaining about antisemtisim. Mark prickface links all this up with the suggestion that uk jews are doing Israel's bidding. Bollox.
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
Problem is that if you've read about this subject from the other perspective of Israel critics, seen the behind-the-scenes footage in Al Jazeera's excellent The Lobby, and looked at the individual accusations objectively not just here but around the world, it's hard to escape the conclusion that there is a political campaign involving the Israeli state.
I don't deny the existence of antisemitism in society but let's be clear that this is a campaign that targets opponents of Israel around the world who are predominantly on the Left.
I'd suggest you take a look at The Lobby just to see another perspective before you dismiss outright that this is a an "antisemitic trope". It's in four parts but it's time well spent:
Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 10:30 - Sep 14 by Darth_Koont
Problem is that if you've read about this subject from the other perspective of Israel critics, seen the behind-the-scenes footage in Al Jazeera's excellent The Lobby, and looked at the individual accusations objectively not just here but around the world, it's hard to escape the conclusion that there is a political campaign involving the Israeli state.
I don't deny the existence of antisemitism in society but let's be clear that this is a campaign that targets opponents of Israel around the world who are predominantly on the Left.
I'd suggest you take a look at The Lobby just to see another perspective before you dismiss outright that this is a an "antisemitic trope". It's in four parts but it's time well spent:
Fair enough on the video - don't have time now, but I will have a look in a break or later tonight.
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 10:21 - Sep 14 by giant_stow
"So why shouldn't people be critical of what they see as oppression and racism on the part of the Israeli government both currently and historically without being accused of double standards?"
As far as I'm concerned, you can and should do that that, but that should have nothing to do uk jews complaining about antisemtisim. Mark prickface links all this up with the suggestion that uk jews are doing Israel's bidding. Bollox.
The problem is though that, as with many of these examples, you are interpretting what he said to fit the narrative that is being pushed. Has he denied that there are examples of antisemitism in Labour? All he has suggested is that those with agendas may be prone to trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.......is this not even a possibility, maybe you just think it would be politically expedient to shut up and suck it up.
[Post edited 14 Sep 2018 10:34]
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 10:32 - Sep 14 by BanksterDebtSlave
The problem is though that, as with many of these examples, you are interpretting what he said to fit the narrative that is being pushed. Has he denied that there are examples of antisemitism in Labour? All he has suggested is that those with agendas may be prone to trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.......is this not even a possibility, maybe you just think it would be politically expedient to shut up and suck it up.
[Post edited 14 Sep 2018 10:34]
"...one of the best forms of trying to hide from the atrocities that you are committing is to go on the offensive and actually create a story that *does not exist*..."
my emphasis.
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 10:21 - Sep 14 by giant_stow
"So why shouldn't people be critical of what they see as oppression and racism on the part of the Israeli government both currently and historically without being accused of double standards?"
As far as I'm concerned, you can and should do that that, but that should have nothing to do uk jews complaining about antisemtisim. Mark prickface links all this up with the suggestion that uk jews are doing Israel's bidding. Bollox.
I don't agree that "UK jews are doing Israel's bidding" but I do think the Israeli state is playing on the natural affinity with Israel.
People keep saying you can and you should but I haven't seen any examples of where that anti-Israeli criticism has not been attacked as antisemitic. A real-life example would be good to see exactly what type of criticism is judged as legitimate.
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Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 10:40 - Sep 14 with 1923 views
Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 10:36 - Sep 14 by giant_stow
"...one of the best forms of trying to hide from the atrocities that you are committing is to go on the offensive and actually create a story that *does not exist*..."
my emphasis.
.......so the created story would be the endemic, existential threat, Corbyn hates Jews, all Jews hate Corbyn stuff......did he contextualise his words in the rest of what he said ?
[Post edited 14 Sep 2018 10:42]
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 10:36 - Sep 14 by giant_stow
"...one of the best forms of trying to hide from the atrocities that you are committing is to go on the offensive and actually create a story that *does not exist*..."
my emphasis.
I don't think the story of endemic antisemitism within the Labour Party exists.
If the story was that antisemites exist across society and many are attached to the Labour Party then there wouldn't be a debate. There's no denying it or that it isn't very bad.
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Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 10:47 - Sep 14 with 1964 views
Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 10:37 - Sep 14 by Darth_Koont
I don't agree that "UK jews are doing Israel's bidding" but I do think the Israeli state is playing on the natural affinity with Israel.
People keep saying you can and you should but I haven't seen any examples of where that anti-Israeli criticism has not been attacked as antisemitic. A real-life example would be good to see exactly what type of criticism is judged as legitimate.
"I don't agree that "UK jews are doing Israel's bidding" but I do think the Israeli state is playing on the natural affinity with Israel. "
weasel words from someone who is trying to dress up a nasty slur as something reasonable.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
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Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 10:52 - Sep 14 with 1954 views
Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 10:47 - Sep 14 by lowhouseblue
"I don't agree that "UK jews are doing Israel's bidding" but I do think the Israeli state is playing on the natural affinity with Israel. "
weasel words from someone who is trying to dress up a nasty slur as something reasonable.
Well, I don't agree with it because it's crude and implies there's an explicit contract between UK Jews and Israel. Do I think there is a connection? Yes.
Edit: And maybe you could find me that example rather than trying to "weasel" your way out of it.
[Post edited 14 Sep 2018 10:56]
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Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 10:53 - Sep 14 with 1950 views
Hate crime has had peaks and troughs around various incidents.
The statistics prove that the greatest increase in hate crime happened after the Brexit Referendum vote. There was actually a dip in hate crime, and then it began to rise after the campaigns started in the run up to the vote.
I would say that the media have more of a responsibility in the way that they report certain events and incidents, that they're able to whip up hatred easily and quickly. They rarely do the opposite. Stoking up fears to keep the population under control, to divert attention elsewhere, to bring a more nationalistic view, it's all happening.
We need less borders, less division, less labels, less hatred.
Here's an interesting study with regards to the above
"How positive or negative is media coverage about migration? Much of the research evidence shows media associating bad news with migrants around the world. During 2013—2014, unfavourable print and online coverage of migration in six countries with very high human development levels (such as Australia, Canada, the Netherlands, Norway, Switzerland and the United Kingdom) was more than twice as visible as favourable content."
That's 2013-2014. I dread to think what it would have been like in the run up to the Brexit vote...
Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 10:30 - Sep 14 by Darth_Koont
Problem is that if you've read about this subject from the other perspective of Israel critics, seen the behind-the-scenes footage in Al Jazeera's excellent The Lobby, and looked at the individual accusations objectively not just here but around the world, it's hard to escape the conclusion that there is a political campaign involving the Israeli state.
I don't deny the existence of antisemitism in society but let's be clear that this is a campaign that targets opponents of Israel around the world who are predominantly on the Left.
I'd suggest you take a look at The Lobby just to see another perspective before you dismiss outright that this is a an "antisemitic trope". It's in four parts but it's time well spent:
Israel, like all governments and all embassies, conducts political lobbying. that is one of the main functions of every embassy in the world. you have no evidence whatsoever that Israel is behind labour's anti-Semitism crisis. you have no evidence that Israel has manufactured the anti-Semitic episodes that have been proved and reported, you have no evidence that the british jews who have called this out have been acting in the interests of Israel. no evidence at all. you are just trying to create a distraction and an excuse for the proven anti-Semitism.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
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Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 11:05 - Sep 14 with 1930 views
Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 10:54 - Sep 14 by lowhouseblue
Israel, like all governments and all embassies, conducts political lobbying. that is one of the main functions of every embassy in the world. you have no evidence whatsoever that Israel is behind labour's anti-Semitism crisis. you have no evidence that Israel has manufactured the anti-Semitic episodes that have been proved and reported, you have no evidence that the british jews who have called this out have been acting in the interests of Israel. no evidence at all. you are just trying to create a distraction and an excuse for the proven anti-Semitism.
I think the incidents of "antisemitism" covered in The Lobby (Jackie Walker and Jean Fitzpatrick amongst others) were very informative. And I know that lobbying is part of political life but denying that the Israeli embassy wasn't playing a major role in stoking these incidents and similar into Labour's antisemitism crisis is naive.
They of course are only one actor. There's also the right-wing press who have used every angle to discredit Corbyn, members of his own party or opposing parties who see him as a political threat and then the mass of social media pundits who have a hard-on for the Left. I've probably covered you and Glassers in there too — but to make sure, you're the clumsy, disingenuous grassroots fanboys who keep the drum banging in the background.
[Post edited 14 Sep 2018 11:06]
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Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 11:10 - Sep 14 with 1916 views
Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 11:05 - Sep 14 by Darth_Koont
I think the incidents of "antisemitism" covered in The Lobby (Jackie Walker and Jean Fitzpatrick amongst others) were very informative. And I know that lobbying is part of political life but denying that the Israeli embassy wasn't playing a major role in stoking these incidents and similar into Labour's antisemitism crisis is naive.
They of course are only one actor. There's also the right-wing press who have used every angle to discredit Corbyn, members of his own party or opposing parties who see him as a political threat and then the mass of social media pundits who have a hard-on for the Left. I've probably covered you and Glassers in there too — but to make sure, you're the clumsy, disingenuous grassroots fanboys who keep the drum banging in the background.
[Post edited 14 Sep 2018 11:06]
Not forgetting that Labour Friends of Israel has such prominent Corbyn critics in its ranks as Luciana Berger, Chris Bryant, Michael Dugher, Margaret Hoddge, Rachel Reeves and Owen Smith.
They also donate multi-millions to the Blairite Progress group.
Where the majority of their funding comes from however remains shrouded in secrecy. But I'm sure it's all a coincidence and LFI aren't trying to force Corbyn out.
footers KC - Prosecution Barrister - Friend to all
Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 11:05 - Sep 14 by Darth_Koont
I think the incidents of "antisemitism" covered in The Lobby (Jackie Walker and Jean Fitzpatrick amongst others) were very informative. And I know that lobbying is part of political life but denying that the Israeli embassy wasn't playing a major role in stoking these incidents and similar into Labour's antisemitism crisis is naive.
They of course are only one actor. There's also the right-wing press who have used every angle to discredit Corbyn, members of his own party or opposing parties who see him as a political threat and then the mass of social media pundits who have a hard-on for the Left. I've probably covered you and Glassers in there too — but to make sure, you're the clumsy, disingenuous grassroots fanboys who keep the drum banging in the background.
[Post edited 14 Sep 2018 11:06]
that's all lovely and clever and fits your narrative. the one thing it misses however it that the anti-semitism in labour is real and serious and has been proven. corbyn has failed to deal with it. what you are seeking to do is deny it, excuse it and distract attention away from it. you promote a conspiracy in which anti-semitism is only to be understood as an attack on corbyn - you fail to see it in any other form. it's the right wing pro-israeli (cough) press, it's the israeli (cough) government, it's the centrists in the labour party, it's people who are scared of corbyn. no it's not - it's anti-semiites. your contortions to deny that simply fact are shocking.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
1
Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 12:04 - Sep 14 with 1835 views
Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 11:49 - Sep 14 by lowhouseblue
that's all lovely and clever and fits your narrative. the one thing it misses however it that the anti-semitism in labour is real and serious and has been proven. corbyn has failed to deal with it. what you are seeking to do is deny it, excuse it and distract attention away from it. you promote a conspiracy in which anti-semitism is only to be understood as an attack on corbyn - you fail to see it in any other form. it's the right wing pro-israeli (cough) press, it's the israeli (cough) government, it's the centrists in the labour party, it's people who are scared of corbyn. no it's not - it's anti-semiites. your contortions to deny that simply fact are shocking.
Where have I said that "antisemitism is only to be understood as an attack on Corbyn"?
I'm trying to pick apart the narrative where antisemitism is weaponized to attack Corbyn. It's a narrative where political opposition to Israel becomes antisemitic just because someone else says it is, and real antisemitism becomes "this is what people are doing in Corbyn's name" or "this is what Corbyn has encouraged". Utter manipulative nonsense that's also callous fear-mongering.
I think how the interested parties have downplayed and dismissed the support for good ol' Jew-hating Orban is a case in point. It doesn't serve the agenda so it's not "antisemitic". Isn't there a better case here for endemic antisemitism within the Conservative party? I don't believe that either on this evidence but it certainly illustrates the political opportunism that's at play.
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Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 20:04 - Sep 14 with 1693 views
Interesting to see the parallels of what has been going on here to the NY democratic party in the US.
Cynthia Nixon who was campaigning to become the Democratic Party’s candidate for governor of New York had also been accused of supporting the BDS movement.
She lost by a large margin - Nixon won 34.4 per cent of the final vote to incumbent candidate Andrew Cuomo’s 65.6 per cent but last week she was hit with a smear campaign linking her to anti-semitism.
'Sex and the City star Cynthia Nixon labelled ‘anti-semitic’ before poll'
"The election result came after one of New York Governor Andrew Cuomo’s closest advisers was linked to a flyer accusing Nixon of being anti-semitic."
"The revelations come five days since the flyer – paid by the state Democratic Party – hit 7000 mailboxes in Jewish neighbourhoods."
"The party mailer lists alleged stances Nixon has taken against the interests of the Jewish community. Nixon, the state party alleges, is “against funding yeshivas;” supportive of BDS ― the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement against Israel; and “silent on the rise of anti-Semitism.”
Jeremy Corbyn causing trouble again on 11:10 - Sep 14 by footers
Not forgetting that Labour Friends of Israel has such prominent Corbyn critics in its ranks as Luciana Berger, Chris Bryant, Michael Dugher, Margaret Hoddge, Rachel Reeves and Owen Smith.
They also donate multi-millions to the Blairite Progress group.
Where the majority of their funding comes from however remains shrouded in secrecy. But I'm sure it's all a coincidence and LFI aren't trying to force Corbyn out.
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