| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? 11:08 - Mar 15 with 10306 views | Bluefish |
When I say people I mean non racist people
Surely it is time to just pretend it never happened |  |
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:41 - Mar 15 with 2615 views | chicoazul |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:38 - Mar 15 by Bluefish |
Part of my role on life is to educate the less fortunate. I had being doing a reasonable job on you until now |
Hey I voted Remain and would do so again but as Brexit annoys all the right people so much I would wrestle with the idea at the ballot box. Nobody's minds are changed by being called racist and stupid, especially since they are racist and stupid, but I like reading your posts so please feel free to continue. |  |
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:42 - Mar 15 with 2613 views | 26_Paz |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:37 - Mar 15 by Bluefish |
Thanks. It is nice to finally get a sensible answer amongst the freaks desperately trying to offended or get me banned for a reasonable question.
What kind of Brexit do you want? Would you be happy with no deal? |
If you hadn't been abusive up to this point you have just called me and a couple of other posters here 'freaks'. In a slightly earlier message you called us 'Wetherspoons drinkers' which may not be abusive towards us but you are clearly implying that anyone who drinks in Wetherspoons is stupid (and possibly racist). This is abusive to the millions of people who frequent Wetherspoons. |  |
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:44 - Mar 15 with 2603 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:01 - Mar 15 by Bluefish |
Lollerskates some angry little person has reported this as abuse. Tragic |
What has happened today in New Zealand is tragic. While i wouldn't consider reporting your original post as abusive you need to accept that it is.
You really need to grow up.(This is an opinion not an abusive comment) |  |
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:44 - Mar 15 with 2602 views | Bluefish |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:41 - Mar 15 by chicoazul |
Hey I voted Remain and would do so again but as Brexit annoys all the right people so much I would wrestle with the idea at the ballot box. Nobody's minds are changed by being called racist and stupid, especially since they are racist and stupid, but I like reading your posts so please feel free to continue. |
Again I wasn't trying to change the minds of the racists nor was I trying to communicate with them. Like I said elsewhere I also didn't wanted to hear from remainers so I was discriminating against the poor racists I just simply wanted to hear from the mislead people | |
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:46 - Mar 15 with 2597 views | xrayspecs |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:37 - Mar 15 by Bluefish |
Thanks. It is nice to finally get a sensible answer amongst the freaks desperately trying to offended or get me banned for a reasonable question.
What kind of Brexit do you want? Would you be happy with no deal? |
(1) Outside jurisdiction of ECJ and (2) control of borders.
I am not sure it is as simple as a deal or no deal. We are within 25 miles of one of our major trading partners so it makes no sense to either them or us to not collaborate on matters of mutual interest (intelligence/security) and trade with each other. So this is going to happen at some point in time.
What you are referring to is the withdrawal agreement. I would prefer that we agreed this but if not, then it is not the end of the world. It will just take us longer to get to a future agreement. |  | | |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:48 - Mar 15 with 2590 views | chicoazul |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:44 - Mar 15 by Bluefish |
Again I wasn't trying to change the minds of the racists nor was I trying to communicate with them. Like I said elsewhere I also didn't wanted to hear from remainers so I was discriminating against the poor racists I just simply wanted to hear from the mislead people |
Are there any other types of people who voted for Brexit in your mind, apart from the stupid and the racist? | |
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:51 - Mar 15 with 2576 views | Bluefish |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:46 - Mar 15 by xrayspecs |
(1) Outside jurisdiction of ECJ and (2) control of borders.
I am not sure it is as simple as a deal or no deal. We are within 25 miles of one of our major trading partners so it makes no sense to either them or us to not collaborate on matters of mutual interest (intelligence/security) and trade with each other. So this is going to happen at some point in time.
What you are referring to is the withdrawal agreement. I would prefer that we agreed this but if not, then it is not the end of the world. It will just take us longer to get to a future agreement. |
How will your life change if either of those things happen? I would think it wont change at all which seems pointless in exchange for the jobs lost and turmoil
Our laws probably wont change and we will still match the EU for most things. We will also still welcome in the same amount of people every year, the only difference is that they will have to ask first and we will then say yes | |
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:52 - Mar 15 with 2571 views | Bluefish |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:48 - Mar 15 by chicoazul |
Are there any other types of people who voted for Brexit in your mind, apart from the stupid and the racist? |
Obviously not. What other type could their be? I think stupid is a bit harsh we should call them mislead | |
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:53 - Mar 15 with 2570 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:35 - Mar 15 by xrayspecs |
I do.
I want the UK to be a nation state, free to govern itself and not part of a Federal European project, run by Paris and Germany.
Inward migration has been good for this country and should continue. Every country needs to be able to manage the inflow of people seeking residence so that it does not overwhelm public services or create social discord.
My politics are centre ground.
I want a different relationship with the EU than the one we have today.
I think you may be confusing the final outcome from the process of getting there. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 12:37]
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I don't understand this. We are free to govern ourselves. And as part of that, when we want something from another country, we are free to decide to meet their demands or not. In the case of being part of the EU we chose to be a member because of the benefits. There's a cost in terms of fee, alignment of standards and laws (but we want many of those because it makes life easier then in a whole number of different ways).
We chose to be in NATO because it's aligned with our defensive priorities, but there's a cost. Etc., etc. We have loads of these international relationships on all different levels.
We will always want other things from other countries and we will always have to enter negotiations where there's a cost to secure things we want. Sometimes that will be pure financial, sometimes agreeing on joint standards and laws, sometimes both. Sometimes one relationship will stop us pursuing other relationships, but again we've a choice to accept the first one or not.
There is no place for a reality where we operate on our own with no expectations, agreements or responsibilities with any other nation. That nirvana and 'Global Britain' are contradictory.
So yes, we can chose to leave the EU. But it will have to be replaced by other relationships, some of which will be equally restrictive). Which seems a bit daft to me when we'll be turning away from our nearest and most important partners in trade, social empowerment, scientific endeavor and R&D across all sectors, etc. |  |
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:58 - Mar 15 with 2556 views | Bluefish |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:53 - Mar 15 by Swansea_Blue |
I don't understand this. We are free to govern ourselves. And as part of that, when we want something from another country, we are free to decide to meet their demands or not. In the case of being part of the EU we chose to be a member because of the benefits. There's a cost in terms of fee, alignment of standards and laws (but we want many of those because it makes life easier then in a whole number of different ways).
We chose to be in NATO because it's aligned with our defensive priorities, but there's a cost. Etc., etc. We have loads of these international relationships on all different levels.
We will always want other things from other countries and we will always have to enter negotiations where there's a cost to secure things we want. Sometimes that will be pure financial, sometimes agreeing on joint standards and laws, sometimes both. Sometimes one relationship will stop us pursuing other relationships, but again we've a choice to accept the first one or not.
There is no place for a reality where we operate on our own with no expectations, agreements or responsibilities with any other nation. That nirvana and 'Global Britain' are contradictory.
So yes, we can chose to leave the EU. But it will have to be replaced by other relationships, some of which will be equally restrictive). Which seems a bit daft to me when we'll be turning away from our nearest and most important partners in trade, social empowerment, scientific endeavor and R&D across all sectors, etc. |
I find it interesting when people say I don't to have to trade under some else's rules in the EU and then they say they want to trade under WTO rules instead  | |
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:02 - Mar 15 with 2544 views | J2BLUE |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:35 - Mar 15 by xrayspecs |
I do.
I want the UK to be a nation state, free to govern itself and not part of a Federal European project, run by Paris and Germany.
Inward migration has been good for this country and should continue. Every country needs to be able to manage the inflow of people seeking residence so that it does not overwhelm public services or create social discord.
My politics are centre ground.
I want a different relationship with the EU than the one we have today.
I think you may be confusing the final outcome from the process of getting there. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 12:37]
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I don't.
I want the UK to be a nation state, free to govern itself and not part of a Federal European project, run by Paris and Germany.
We have the second largest economy in the EU, the second most powerful army and we're one of only two EU countries with nuclear weapons. If the EU is run by France and Germany it is only because we have refused to fully buy into what the EU could be. The UK will continue to be a nation state. Europe is not alone in working with other close countries to solve problems or make trade easier. Look at the Arab league. Look at China spending money on infrastructure in other countries to make trade in the region easier. If anything has taught us that being part of a block is superior to standing alone if our negotiations with the EU. Ireland has 'beaten' us because they can call on 26 other nations to back them up. The EU is one of perhaps only two (with China) who can stand up to the US in trade deals etc.
I've completely changed my mind. I think i've learnt a few things from this whole process. 1) The EU are our most natural allies. It's time to stop fighting it and embrace it. 2) American politics is going through a period of utter batsh1t insanity. Doing a deal with Trump (which will be one sided anyway) is not going to help us. Every US president before and probably after will have been and will be pro EU. Trump is not the norm. 3) We are so interconnected that untangling is almost impossible. We lose lots of benefits and European wide bodies. We lose being part of the EU satellite system. 4) We need a united approach to things like climate change, NATO etc. If the US are going to withdraw from things like the Paris Accord the rest of the world must step up together.
I would like to know the terms we would stay in on. If we can continue our current deal or have what Cameron is offered then staying in becomes the obvious (for me) choice. |  |
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:07 - Mar 15 with 2526 views | xrayspecs |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:53 - Mar 15 by Swansea_Blue |
I don't understand this. We are free to govern ourselves. And as part of that, when we want something from another country, we are free to decide to meet their demands or not. In the case of being part of the EU we chose to be a member because of the benefits. There's a cost in terms of fee, alignment of standards and laws (but we want many of those because it makes life easier then in a whole number of different ways).
We chose to be in NATO because it's aligned with our defensive priorities, but there's a cost. Etc., etc. We have loads of these international relationships on all different levels.
We will always want other things from other countries and we will always have to enter negotiations where there's a cost to secure things we want. Sometimes that will be pure financial, sometimes agreeing on joint standards and laws, sometimes both. Sometimes one relationship will stop us pursuing other relationships, but again we've a choice to accept the first one or not.
There is no place for a reality where we operate on our own with no expectations, agreements or responsibilities with any other nation. That nirvana and 'Global Britain' are contradictory.
So yes, we can chose to leave the EU. But it will have to be replaced by other relationships, some of which will be equally restrictive). Which seems a bit daft to me when we'll be turning away from our nearest and most important partners in trade, social empowerment, scientific endeavor and R&D across all sectors, etc. |
I agree with a lot of your post - that there are two sides to any agreement and you can not simply cherry pick the parts you like. Where have I heard that before?
The control that Europe has over the lives of all of us in the UK is very significant. Some of this is good by the way. Some less so.
We do not have control over our borders and that is an issue for many in the UK. It is one of the four indivisible freedoms of EU membership.
As I said in my OP, I want a different relationship with the EU to the one we have today. | | | |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:10 - Mar 15 with 2513 views | Bluefish |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:08 - Mar 15 by Pinewoodblue |
The EU trades with over 80 countries under WTO rules.
Provided the UK can strike a reasonable trade deal with the EU, negotiations don't start until we leave, there are advantages in leaving as we can enter into trade deals negotiating on a 1-1 basis and not giving 27 other countries the power of veto over a trade deal which may not be to the benefit of just one of the other 27.
The EU places barriers in place to protect their own interest. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 13:10]
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You missed my point.
My point was people want to leave because they don't want to be told what to do on trade so they want to do it differently so that someone else can tell them what to do instead | |
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:11 - Mar 15 with 2512 views | xrayspecs |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:02 - Mar 15 by J2BLUE |
I don't.
I want the UK to be a nation state, free to govern itself and not part of a Federal European project, run by Paris and Germany.
We have the second largest economy in the EU, the second most powerful army and we're one of only two EU countries with nuclear weapons. If the EU is run by France and Germany it is only because we have refused to fully buy into what the EU could be. The UK will continue to be a nation state. Europe is not alone in working with other close countries to solve problems or make trade easier. Look at the Arab league. Look at China spending money on infrastructure in other countries to make trade in the region easier. If anything has taught us that being part of a block is superior to standing alone if our negotiations with the EU. Ireland has 'beaten' us because they can call on 26 other nations to back them up. The EU is one of perhaps only two (with China) who can stand up to the US in trade deals etc.
I've completely changed my mind. I think i've learnt a few things from this whole process. 1) The EU are our most natural allies. It's time to stop fighting it and embrace it. 2) American politics is going through a period of utter batsh1t insanity. Doing a deal with Trump (which will be one sided anyway) is not going to help us. Every US president before and probably after will have been and will be pro EU. Trump is not the norm. 3) We are so interconnected that untangling is almost impossible. We lose lots of benefits and European wide bodies. We lose being part of the EU satellite system. 4) We need a united approach to things like climate change, NATO etc. If the US are going to withdraw from things like the Paris Accord the rest of the world must step up together.
I would like to know the terms we would stay in on. If we can continue our current deal or have what Cameron is offered then staying in becomes the obvious (for me) choice. |
Good post.
Which is why I see a relationship with the EU as inevitable and worthwhile. It simply needs to different to the one we have today. Will not repeat what I have posted above, you will get my point.
On your last point, if Cameron had obtained the concessions he was seeking, we would not have had a referendum. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 13:12]
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:11 - Mar 15 with 2505 views | J2BLUE |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:08 - Mar 15 by Pinewoodblue |
The EU trades with over 80 countries under WTO rules.
Provided the UK can strike a reasonable trade deal with the EU, negotiations don't start until we leave, there are advantages in leaving as we can enter into trade deals negotiating on a 1-1 basis and not giving 27 other countries the power of veto over a trade deal which may not be to the benefit of just one of the other 27.
The EU places barriers in place to protect their own interest. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 13:10]
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The EU trades with 80 countries under WTO rules because the EU have the power. They are negotiating with single countries. The EU can call the shots and those countries decide if it's worth it.
Just like it will be with us. | |
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:12 - Mar 15 with 2503 views | homer_123 |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 12:53 - Mar 15 by Swansea_Blue |
I don't understand this. We are free to govern ourselves. And as part of that, when we want something from another country, we are free to decide to meet their demands or not. In the case of being part of the EU we chose to be a member because of the benefits. There's a cost in terms of fee, alignment of standards and laws (but we want many of those because it makes life easier then in a whole number of different ways).
We chose to be in NATO because it's aligned with our defensive priorities, but there's a cost. Etc., etc. We have loads of these international relationships on all different levels.
We will always want other things from other countries and we will always have to enter negotiations where there's a cost to secure things we want. Sometimes that will be pure financial, sometimes agreeing on joint standards and laws, sometimes both. Sometimes one relationship will stop us pursuing other relationships, but again we've a choice to accept the first one or not.
There is no place for a reality where we operate on our own with no expectations, agreements or responsibilities with any other nation. That nirvana and 'Global Britain' are contradictory.
So yes, we can chose to leave the EU. But it will have to be replaced by other relationships, some of which will be equally restrictive). Which seems a bit daft to me when we'll be turning away from our nearest and most important partners in trade, social empowerment, scientific endeavor and R&D across all sectors, etc. |
Sensible post Swansea.
As a nation though - we should be constantly checking to ensure that our membership with NATO, the EU and other treaties, countries et al are actually delivering benefit and value for money.
With regards to the UK, there is little no valid, level debate around our membership - there hasn't been for 40 years. Not least because the way the media like to portray our relationship with the EU. There is absolutely nothing wrong with sense checking our membership with the EU. I think we have discussed before - for me, I dislike the way the EU is heading in many aspects and I don't feel they are aligned with our ideals as a country nor what we originally signed up to. So, weighing up the benefits of EU membership (and there are many) with what the long term looks like, seems sensible to me.
However, within many spaces that can't coherently seem to happen. Yet, interestingly TWTD over the past couple of years has generally been quite good at being a more level(ish) playing field for discussion with most seemingly happy to debate differences and where people have gone too far they've been called out for it.
For me, reading your reply to the post - I can see both sides here - I can understand the thinking of the OP (not Bluefish but the guy you replied to) but equally can see your views and valid points as well. |  |
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:13 - Mar 15 with 2502 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:10 - Mar 15 by Bluefish |
You missed my point.
My point was people want to leave because they don't want to be told what to do on trade so they want to do it differently so that someone else can tell them what to do instead |
Your simplistic approach is provocative, no doubt by design. | |
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:14 - Mar 15 with 2497 views | J2BLUE |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:11 - Mar 15 by xrayspecs |
Good post.
Which is why I see a relationship with the EU as inevitable and worthwhile. It simply needs to different to the one we have today. Will not repeat what I have posted above, you will get my point.
On your last point, if Cameron had obtained the concessions he was seeking, we would not have had a referendum. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 13:12]
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Well he was offered some concessions. Not much, but added bonuses if we can still have them. Although if we end up remaining with our current deal I don't think we can complain too much. | |
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:14 - Mar 15 with 2497 views | homer_123 |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:02 - Mar 15 by J2BLUE |
I don't.
I want the UK to be a nation state, free to govern itself and not part of a Federal European project, run by Paris and Germany.
We have the second largest economy in the EU, the second most powerful army and we're one of only two EU countries with nuclear weapons. If the EU is run by France and Germany it is only because we have refused to fully buy into what the EU could be. The UK will continue to be a nation state. Europe is not alone in working with other close countries to solve problems or make trade easier. Look at the Arab league. Look at China spending money on infrastructure in other countries to make trade in the region easier. If anything has taught us that being part of a block is superior to standing alone if our negotiations with the EU. Ireland has 'beaten' us because they can call on 26 other nations to back them up. The EU is one of perhaps only two (with China) who can stand up to the US in trade deals etc.
I've completely changed my mind. I think i've learnt a few things from this whole process. 1) The EU are our most natural allies. It's time to stop fighting it and embrace it. 2) American politics is going through a period of utter batsh1t insanity. Doing a deal with Trump (which will be one sided anyway) is not going to help us. Every US president before and probably after will have been and will be pro EU. Trump is not the norm. 3) We are so interconnected that untangling is almost impossible. We lose lots of benefits and European wide bodies. We lose being part of the EU satellite system. 4) We need a united approach to things like climate change, NATO etc. If the US are going to withdraw from things like the Paris Accord the rest of the world must step up together.
I would like to know the terms we would stay in on. If we can continue our current deal or have what Cameron is offered then staying in becomes the obvious (for me) choice. |
Legally we can simple revoke Article 50 and things go back to the way they were, without the other 27 member states agreeing.
Same terms and some process, costs, benefits etc.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46481643
Whether we are treated the same if we did is another matter entirely. | |
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:17 - Mar 15 with 2491 views | Bluefish |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:13 - Mar 15 by Pinewoodblue |
Your simplistic approach is provocative, no doubt by design. |
Nothing really there to argue is there. We want out so we don't have rules so we will happily follow these rules instead.
Instead of those faceless EU bureaucrats whose faces we have actually seen we can have actual faceless bureaucrats from the WTO whose faces we have never seen | |
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:18 - Mar 15 with 2490 views | homer_123 |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:17 - Mar 15 by Bluefish |
Nothing really there to argue is there. We want out so we don't have rules so we will happily follow these rules instead.
Instead of those faceless EU bureaucrats whose faces we have actually seen we can have actual faceless bureaucrats from the WTO whose faces we have never seen |
You do know what WTO is and what they are for, right? | |
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:20 - Mar 15 with 2479 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:07 - Mar 15 by xrayspecs |
I agree with a lot of your post - that there are two sides to any agreement and you can not simply cherry pick the parts you like. Where have I heard that before?
The control that Europe has over the lives of all of us in the UK is very significant. Some of this is good by the way. Some less so.
We do not have control over our borders and that is an issue for many in the UK. It is one of the four indivisible freedoms of EU membership.
As I said in my OP, I want a different relationship with the EU to the one we have today. |
Borders is another good example. We do have literal control (checks at ports, etc) but obviously we're talking about freedom of movement. Irrespective of the EU we have an agreement with Ireland to not have a hard border between ireland and NI - a 'price' to pay for peace. So again, another example of where we concede something to gain something of greater value and where we don't have unilateral control.
I think there will always be cases where others will have control over all of us in the UK. You're right, the EU regulations are pervasive. Personally I don't mind them as I think there are very few cases where we've opposed them and they've still been enforced. But if others don't like that and worry about ever greater EU influence, then fair enough. i don't know what a different relationship would look like - to me it's inevitable that you have to align if you want shared benefits. Maybe if the lead Brexiteers could articulate what this new relationship would look like in detail it would have helped.
I wish the referendum and subsequent discussions could have been conducted more along the line of this sort of discussion though, rather than the tribal rubbish we've had to put up with. | |
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| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:21 - Mar 15 with 2475 views | Bluefish |
| Are there any people that still believe in Brexit? on 13:18 - Mar 15 by homer_123 |
You do know what WTO is and what they are for, right? |
They are the world trade organisation. What else do you want to know? They make the rules for global trade that we will default to. | |
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