| Tories going all out for No Deal then 08:57 - Oct 8 with 9916 views | itfcjoe |
Allegedly from Dominic Cummings, bloke is a jumped up pr!ck and I'd love to see this all blow up in his face.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/how-number-10-view-the-state-of-the-negoti
‘The negotiations will probably end this week. Varadkar doesn’t want to negotiate. Varadkar was keen on talking before the Benn Act when he thought that the choice would be ‘new deal or no deal’. Since the Benn Act passed he has gone very cold and in the last week the official channels and the backchannels have also gone cold. Varadkar has also gone back on his commitments – he said if we moved on manufactured goods then he would also move but instead he just attacked us publicly. It’s clear he wants to gamble on a second referendum and that he’s encouraging Barnier to stick to the line that the UK cannot leave the EU without leaving Northern Ireland behind.
There are quite a few people in Paris and Berlin who would like to discuss our offer but Merkel and Macron won’t push Barnier unless Ireland says it wants to negotiate. Those who think Merkel will help us are deluded. As things stand, Dublin will do nothing, hoping we offer more, then at the end of this week they may say ‘OK, let’s do a Northern Ireland only backstop with a time limit’, which is what various players have been hinting at, then we’ll say No, and that will probably be the end.
Varadkar thinks that either there will be a referendum or we win a majority but we will just put this offer back on the table so he thinks he can’t lose by refusing to compromise now. Given his assumptions, Varadkar’s behaviour is arguably rational but his assumptions are, I think, false. Ireland and Brussels listen to all the people who lost the referendum, they don’t listen to those who won the referendum and they don’t understand the electoral dynamics here.
If this deal dies in the next few days, then it won’t be revived. To marginalise the Brexit Party, we will have to fight the election on the basis of ‘no more delays, get Brexit done immediately’. They thought that if May went then Brexit would get softer. It seems few have learned from this mistake. They think we’re bluffing and there’s nothing we can do about that, not least given the way May and Hammond constantly talked tough then folded.
So, if talks go nowhere this week, the next phase will require us to set out our view on the Surrender Act. The Act imposes narrow duties. Our legal advice is clear that we can do all sorts of things to scupper delay which for obvious reasons we aren’t going into details about. Different lawyers see the “frustration principle” very differently especially on a case like this where there is no precedent for primary legislation directing how the PM conducts international discussions.
We will make clear privately and publicly that countries which oppose delay will go the front of the queue for future cooperation – cooperation on things both within and outside EU competences. Those who support delay will go to the bottom of the queue. [This source also made clear that defence and security cooperation will inevitably be affected if the EU tries to keep Britain in against the will of its government] Supporting delay will be seen by this government as hostile interference in domestic politics, and over half of the public will agree with us.
We will also make clear that this government will not negotiate further so any delay would be totally pointless. They think now that if there is another delay we will keep coming back with new proposals. This won’t happen. We’ll either leave with no deal on 31 October or there will be an election and then we will leave with no deal.
‘When they say ‘so what is the point of delay?’, we will say “This is not our delay, the government is not asking for a delay – Parliament is sending you a letter and Parliament is asking for a delay but official government policy remains that delay is an atrocious idea that everyone should dismiss. Any delay will in effect be negotiated between you, Parliament, and the courts – we will wash our hands of it, we won’t engage in further talks, we obviously won’t given any undertakings about cooperative behaviour, everything to do with ‘duty of sincere cooperation’ will be in the toilet, we will focus on winning the election on a manifesto of immediately revoking the entire EU legal order without further talks, and then we will leave. Those who supported delay will face the inevitable consequences of being seen to interfere in domestic politics in a deeply unpopular way by colluding with a Parliament that is as popular as the clap.
Those who pushed the Benn Act intended to sabotage a deal and they’ve probably succeeded. So the main effect of it will probably be to help us win an election by uniting the leave vote and then a no deal Brexit. History is full of such ironies and tragedies.’ |  |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 11:59 - Oct 8 with 2394 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:24 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
"Extreme, but it's hard to deny their approach is fascist (of the literal definition rather than symbolic goose stepping Nazis). Invoking the will of the people to facilitate the wishes of the state, crushing dissenters (calling out political opponents as 'traitors'), unwillingness to be held to account and disregard for the rule of law and national institutions (anti-judiciary, 'enemies of the people', etc), pumping out blatant state propaganda that any authoritarian regime would be proud of. "
what utter nonsense. if you type those things and believe them you are clearly living in an echo chamber where no one ever challenges your descent into madness. and with this short thread I've had my fill of the twtd hysterical group think for the day. have fun spinning madder and madder lines to each other. |
So you don't think there's a concerted attack on the institutions of democracy and law then, an invoking of the 'will of the people' for political gain and attempts to discredit anyone who stands up to that and smear them as against the people, traitors, etc?
And you think I'm the mad one?  |  |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:01 - Oct 8 with 2387 views | chicoazul |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 11:49 - Oct 8 by wkj |
Actually it hasn't, if anything that sort of behaviour has decreased on both sides and there are more people questioning where the centre ground lies. There are still devout on both sides of the coin, but most of the time when a reasoned point is made, reasoned compromise or debate follows. |
You must be blind. |  |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:02 - Oct 8 with 2387 views | lowhouseblue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 11:59 - Oct 8 by Swansea_Blue |
So you don't think there's a concerted attack on the institutions of democracy and law then, an invoking of the 'will of the people' for political gain and attempts to discredit anyone who stands up to that and smear them as against the people, traitors, etc?
And you think I'm the mad one? |
what a lot of hysterical nonsense. a concerted attack on democracy which takes the form of trying to hold a general election but being blocked from so doing. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:05 - Oct 8 with 2372 views | lowhouseblue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 11:43 - Oct 8 by Darth_Koont |
Maybe less petty party politics and more reality needed? Just a thought. |
seriously have you not noticed how many fewer people now post? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:06 - Oct 8 with 2366 views | LeoMuff |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 09:54 - Oct 8 by bracknell_blue |
This tw@t seems to be running the country at the moment, pulling Johnson's strings. But he has never stood for office, and nobody has ever voted for him. We are sadly going the way of 1930s Germany. |
The referendum/remain parties must come together call an election and campaign for a referendum, otherwise there will surely be a win for no deal as the only party able to stop this push for no deal in an election are Labour who are all over the place.
They need to get Corbyn out of the picture as he is a clear vote loser and come together on a referendum platform, with no deal, remain, Mays deal.
Then we know what the will of the people really is. |  |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:09 - Oct 8 with 2348 views | BlueNomad |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:02 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
what a lot of hysterical nonsense. a concerted attack on democracy which takes the form of trying to hold a general election but being blocked from so doing. |
Could it be that BJ wants a GE so that Parliament closes over 31 October but the Government continues to operate. In other words he can take us out without consulting Parliament. Encouraging vote of no confidence now is a trap. |  | | |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:11 - Oct 8 with 2342 views | wkj |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:01 - Oct 8 by chicoazul |
You must be blind. |
What if I am? |  |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:13 - Oct 8 with 2330 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:06 - Oct 8 by LeoMuff |
The referendum/remain parties must come together call an election and campaign for a referendum, otherwise there will surely be a win for no deal as the only party able to stop this push for no deal in an election are Labour who are all over the place.
They need to get Corbyn out of the picture as he is a clear vote loser and come together on a referendum platform, with no deal, remain, Mays deal.
Then we know what the will of the people really is. |
As far as I'm aware, the government are legally required to ask for an extension if they can't reach a deal in the next 10 days. And the re-packaged proposals are so far away from where they need to be that an agreement looks highly unlikely. So unless the government find a cunning ruse to bypass the law (they keep saying they have, but every cunning ruse they've had so far has fallen flat on its face) an extension is the most likely (short-term) outcome.
Nobody will agree to an early election until that extension is sorted.
Sadly I don't think Corbyn is going anywhere. If the opposition parties want a government of unity they are going to have to grow up, start talking and agree to compromise. I'm not holding my breath! | |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:14 - Oct 8 with 2326 views | chicoazul |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:11 - Oct 8 by wkj |
What if I am? |
To be fair to you I have quite a few of the board's dry lunches on ignore now so it may be that they are carrying out the kinds of conversations you allude to but I strongly doubt it. | |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:15 - Oct 8 with 2322 views | wkj |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 11:58 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
and yet you think that calling boris a fascist is sane and profound. seriously, you're in a bubble of the purest group think all nodding along and seeing who can agree the loudest. |
I haven't at any point called Boris a fascist, nor have I advocated it in any way. | |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:16 - Oct 8 with 2318 views | wkj |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:14 - Oct 8 by chicoazul |
To be fair to you I have quite a few of the board's dry lunches on ignore now so it may be that they are carrying out the kinds of conversations you allude to but I strongly doubt it. |
You must have missed the fan fiction post about Swinson and Gove. Real solidarity. | |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:18 - Oct 8 with 2298 views | Darth_Koont |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:05 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
seriously have you not noticed how many fewer people now post? |
There's a distinct lack of party political posts, that's for sure.
I think the debate has never been more robust and honest on here. Lots of people can't handle that or can't hide behind their usual empty rhetoric. Which is a great step forward. |  |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:19 - Oct 8 with 2296 views | chicoazul |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:16 - Oct 8 by wkj |
You must have missed the fan fiction post about Swinson and Gove. Real solidarity. |
Ha! Fair enough. | |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:22 - Oct 8 with 2286 views | lowhouseblue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:18 - Oct 8 by Darth_Koont |
There's a distinct lack of party political posts, that's for sure.
I think the debate has never been more robust and honest on here. Lots of people can't handle that or can't hide behind their usual empty rhetoric. Which is a great step forward. |
so 'robust and honest' in the sense that your group has shouted everyone else down to the point that they've stopped posting regularly and now your just get to agree with each other in increasingly hysterical tones. the echo chamber of your dreams. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:26 - Oct 8 with 2270 views | wkj |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:22 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
so 'robust and honest' in the sense that your group has shouted everyone else down to the point that they've stopped posting regularly and now your just get to agree with each other in increasingly hysterical tones. the echo chamber of your dreams. |
Depends on who starts the post. There are two clear types on here. Ones that start on the offensive with the op, and ones that start more contemplatively. You tend to be more active on the former type of posts that often attract posters who have personal differences masked behind political argument, so it is quite clear as to why you see it the way you do.
Even now, despite advocating more sensible political debate you're making an accusation toward another poster that surely serves to exacerbate the situation you're complaining about rather than improve it, does it not? [Post edited 8 Oct 2019 12:27]
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:26 - Oct 8 with 2270 views | BlueNomad |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:22 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
so 'robust and honest' in the sense that your group has shouted everyone else down to the point that they've stopped posting regularly and now your just get to agree with each other in increasingly hysterical tones. the echo chamber of your dreams. |
Increasingly hysterical? People didn't get shouted down, they were just unable to provide any coherent reason why No Deal / "Just leave" is a particularly good prospect. They just hid behind slogans instead of engaging in sober debate. | | | |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:29 - Oct 8 with 2255 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:26 - Oct 8 by BlueNomad |
Increasingly hysterical? People didn't get shouted down, they were just unable to provide any coherent reason why No Deal / "Just leave" is a particularly good prospect. They just hid behind slogans instead of engaging in sober debate. |
"Hysterical" is being bandied about a lot this morning when people are quite calming posting a position , with reasoning. It's quite odd.
Each to their own and all that 🤷â€â™‚ï¸ | |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:31 - Oct 8 with 2247 views | wkj |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:29 - Oct 8 by Swansea_Blue |
"Hysterical" is being bandied about a lot this morning when people are quite calming posting a position , with reasoning. It's quite odd.
Each to their own and all that 🤷â€â™‚ï¸ |
Remember when political disagreements lead to people being doxed and stalked offline? TWTD | |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:33 - Oct 8 with 2238 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:31 - Oct 8 by wkj |
Remember when political disagreements lead to people being doxed and stalked offline? TWTD |
This is the calmest I've ever known this place, that's for sure. | |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:33 - Oct 8 with 2235 views | lowhouseblue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:29 - Oct 8 by Swansea_Blue |
"Hysterical" is being bandied about a lot this morning when people are quite calming posting a position , with reasoning. It's quite odd.
Each to their own and all that 🤷â€â™‚ï¸ |
you mean calm that claiming that boris johnson is a fascist. who could possibly see that as hysterical. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:33 - Oct 8 with 2233 views | wkj |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:33 - Oct 8 by Swansea_Blue |
This is the calmest I've ever known this place, that's for sure. |
I will find you... and I will brexit you. | |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:37 - Oct 8 with 2219 views | m14_blue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:24 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
"Extreme, but it's hard to deny their approach is fascist (of the literal definition rather than symbolic goose stepping Nazis). Invoking the will of the people to facilitate the wishes of the state, crushing dissenters (calling out political opponents as 'traitors'), unwillingness to be held to account and disregard for the rule of law and national institutions (anti-judiciary, 'enemies of the people', etc), pumping out blatant state propaganda that any authoritarian regime would be proud of. "
what utter nonsense. if you type those things and believe them you are clearly living in an echo chamber where no one ever challenges your descent into madness. and with this short thread I've had my fill of the twtd hysterical group think for the day. have fun spinning madder and madder lines to each other. |
If you seriously think Swansea is part of some hysterical group then you really have lost it.
One of the most balanced and rational posters on here and always calmly and patiently explains his point, as he has done here before you, ironically, tried to shut him down with meaningless sound bites (echo chamber etc).
I used to find your contributions really interesting, and still think we’re pretty close politically, but recently you’ve become just another single-line, faux enigmatic, spiteful, angry poster. I’m not sure why. |  | | |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:37 - Oct 8 with 2218 views | wkj |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:33 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
you mean calm that claiming that boris johnson is a fascist. who could possibly see that as hysterical. |
Up until now, there have been 4 times in this post where the word fascist appears. 3 were by yourself and 1 was by myself countering you saying that I had not advocated that or said it.
So I really don't see where this fascist word is coming from other than yourself, so I am quite confused where you are drawing this from. | |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:38 - Oct 8 with 2215 views | lowhouseblue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:26 - Oct 8 by wkj |
Depends on who starts the post. There are two clear types on here. Ones that start on the offensive with the op, and ones that start more contemplatively. You tend to be more active on the former type of posts that often attract posters who have personal differences masked behind political argument, so it is quite clear as to why you see it the way you do.
Even now, despite advocating more sensible political debate you're making an accusation toward another poster that surely serves to exacerbate the situation you're complaining about rather than improve it, does it not? [Post edited 8 Oct 2019 12:27]
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just to be clear, comparing events in the uk today with 1930s germany and calling boris johnson a fascist is hysterical and silly. that pointing out its hysterical nature gets such push back from people like you demonstrates that you are lost in a weird bubble of group think. it seems to me the dominance of this nonsense is why fewer people are now posting.
anyway, having been clear, i'm off to lunch. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:39 - Oct 8 with 2211 views | BlueNomad |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:33 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
you mean calm that claiming that boris johnson is a fascist. who could possibly see that as hysterical. |
He may not be a facist but he and his cohorts have adopted some of the tactics employed by genuine facist parties elsewhere 80-90 years ago. | | | |
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