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Oh dear 10:13 - Feb 4 with 2239 viewsGuthrum

Looks like the US Democrats have become a Labour tribute act, with chaotic administrative shambles in the Iowa caucus and wildly varying results among those which have been unofficially announced. They're going to end up throwing this election, if they're not careful.

Good Lord! Whatever is it?
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Oh dear on 10:37 - Feb 4 with 1281 viewsStokieBlue

Just when we need some competence from the Democrats in order to show they can beat Trump they make a total balls up of it. Pathetic stuff.

From the Guardian:

"In the absence of facts, the candidates took to the microphones to declare victory. All of them were winners, at least according to their own speechwriters and egos. It may be true that every Democrat is running to cleanse the stain of Donald Trump. But it’s also true that ignoring the facts to declare victory is the most Trumpian move of them all."

Being compared to Trump isn't a good way for them to be going.

SB

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

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Oh dear on 10:42 - Feb 4 with 1278 viewshomer_123

Oh dear on 10:37 - Feb 4 by StokieBlue

Just when we need some competence from the Democrats in order to show they can beat Trump they make a total balls up of it. Pathetic stuff.

From the Guardian:

"In the absence of facts, the candidates took to the microphones to declare victory. All of them were winners, at least according to their own speechwriters and egos. It may be true that every Democrat is running to cleanse the stain of Donald Trump. But it’s also true that ignoring the facts to declare victory is the most Trumpian move of them all."

Being compared to Trump isn't a good way for them to be going.

SB


Biden certainly didn't declare victory.

That aside, the Democrats are showing all the signs of doing a Labour here in the UK.

Ade Akinbiyi couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo...
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Trump is going to get in again... and the deep seated damage to US society on 11:08 - Feb 4 with 1248 viewsunstableblue

... and global relationships will continue for another 4 years...

Trump is riding a US economic bubble, not directly related to his policies*

(*he has damaged US agriculture, bizarrely US execs are growing revenue through certain tech and green initiatives, which are directly opposed to Trump policy).

Some recent Trump highlights:

- hidden dialogue from a dinner party, basically agreeing to remove a troublesome US ambassador, crooked as a £12 note, horrible style

- reintroducing land mines as an option for US military

- pardoning and exonerating a war criminal

- peeling back environmental river protections

- continued climate change and environmental challenge denial

- a middle east peace plan, that is the opposite of peace

- enabling a rise in gun ownership and public carrying that is spiralling out of control

I could go on.... but the worse is enabling a huge schism in US society..

And I would agree the Democrats are completely dropping the ball, going far too left

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Oh dear on 11:11 - Feb 4 with 1235 viewsBackToRussia

How does that compare to the UK Labour Party?

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Oh dear on 11:13 - Feb 4 with 1221 viewsElderGrizzly

Oh dear on 10:42 - Feb 4 by homer_123

Biden certainly didn't declare victory.

That aside, the Democrats are showing all the signs of doing a Labour here in the UK.


Because Biden will never win Iowa. 4th or 5th at best.

Iowa is a Sanders/Buttigieg state
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Oh dear on 11:20 - Feb 4 with 1202 viewsGuthrum

Oh dear on 11:11 - Feb 4 by BackToRussia

How does that compare to the UK Labour Party?


Despite the weakness of Johnson's position in the run-up to the election, Labour failed to run a dynamic, targeted campaign, refused to cooperate with other opposition parties unless given a dominant role, engaged in excessive infighting, were vague on important issues and had a leader encumbered by baggage too open to attack (justified or otherwise). As a result, they missed what could have been an open goal.

The Democrats have already descended into bickering spats between candidates, now they are unable to run a crucial caucus smoothly. Plus it's looking like there's no stand-out candidate and the supporters of those eliminated are, reportedly in some cases, refusing to back any of the front runners. There's a real danger they'll tear themselves apart, affecting turnout and just letting Trump stroll into the end-zone.

Good Lord! Whatever is it?
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Oh dear on 11:25 - Feb 4 with 1192 viewsDarth_Koont

Depressingly, it does mirror the UK's obsession with personality and judging politicians by how they play the game of politics. And a blindness to actual policy and ideas.

The US system is deeply flawed too and in different ways, but always thought they took their politics more seriously overall.
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Oh dear on 11:31 - Feb 4 with 1181 viewsBackToRussia

Oh dear on 11:20 - Feb 4 by Guthrum

Despite the weakness of Johnson's position in the run-up to the election, Labour failed to run a dynamic, targeted campaign, refused to cooperate with other opposition parties unless given a dominant role, engaged in excessive infighting, were vague on important issues and had a leader encumbered by baggage too open to attack (justified or otherwise). As a result, they missed what could have been an open goal.

The Democrats have already descended into bickering spats between candidates, now they are unable to run a crucial caucus smoothly. Plus it's looking like there's no stand-out candidate and the supporters of those eliminated are, reportedly in some cases, refusing to back any of the front runners. There's a real danger they'll tear themselves apart, affecting turnout and just letting Trump stroll into the end-zone.


They've messed up the admin on one caucus, I think you're overreacting TBF. You're acting as if it's unusual for there to be a field of candidates for the Democratic pick and seem surprised if they're attacking one another. Once they have a candidate, that's when the campaign re Trump starts. You can't compare what's an essentially a leadership campaign for a party with an election campaign.

TWTD CP. Evans Out.
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Oh dear on 11:31 - Feb 4 with 1177 viewsLankHenners

This probably does two things: gives Trump more ammunition to attack democrat incompetence, and strengthens the Sanders camp’s position that the establishment is out to get them which could bolster his support if they feel they have to fight even harder for victory.

Interestingly, there’ve been reports that the company involved in creating the app (which is only one part of the problem) received funding from Pete Buttigieg’s campaign and the CEO of said company has had tweets from last year dig up where they celebrate his running announcement. Easy to shout conspiracy but that it particular seems a clear conflict of interests.

Nominating anyone but Sanders will see them throw away the election anyway, and even then it’s far from certain even he can topple Trump’s momentum.

Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand.
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Oh dear on 11:32 - Feb 4 with 1172 viewsGaryCooper

Oh dear on 11:11 - Feb 4 by BackToRussia

How does that compare to the UK Labour Party?


Is it the raising of hands to decide policy and then not counting them correctly?
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Oh dear on 11:40 - Feb 4 with 1144 viewsStokieBlue

Oh dear on 11:31 - Feb 4 by BackToRussia

They've messed up the admin on one caucus, I think you're overreacting TBF. You're acting as if it's unusual for there to be a field of candidates for the Democratic pick and seem surprised if they're attacking one another. Once they have a candidate, that's when the campaign re Trump starts. You can't compare what's an essentially a leadership campaign for a party with an election campaign.


It's a pretty big deal. It's an important caucus and chosen specifically for the location so that the winner can make an address when both the east and west coasts are still awake.

Now they just look like a shambles. I do think that will have an effect, even if it's small. Easy to push the "can't even manage a small vote, how can they run the country" narrative to those already willing to believe.

Good article here from Nate Silver on the importance of Iowa:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/iowa-might-have-screwed-up-the-whole-nomina

SB
[Post edited 4 Feb 11:44]

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

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Oh dear on 12:02 - Feb 4 with 1077 viewsGuthrum

Oh dear on 11:31 - Feb 4 by BackToRussia

They've messed up the admin on one caucus, I think you're overreacting TBF. You're acting as if it's unusual for there to be a field of candidates for the Democratic pick and seem surprised if they're attacking one another. Once they have a candidate, that's when the campaign re Trump starts. You can't compare what's an essentially a leadership campaign for a party with an election campaign.


It is the most important caucus. Not in terms of delegate numbers, but of influence and momentum. Even if the result is close, it would have been better to announce something provisional, rather than nothing at all.

The Dems are up against a Republican Party which has, for the most part, closed ranks behind Trump. Unless something happens, they are a unified, monolithic bloc, all driving in the same direction, buoyed by the momentum from what will almost certainly be a defeat of impeachment proceedings. Plus a core support base who will back the bloke pretty much whatever he does.

It's going to be one heck of a fight to stop that, especially as the economy is still tilted in the Administration's favour. The Dems can't afford to put a foot wrong very often.

Good Lord! Whatever is it?
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Oh dear on 12:04 - Feb 4 with 1073 viewsGuthrum

Oh dear on 11:31 - Feb 4 by LankHenners

This probably does two things: gives Trump more ammunition to attack democrat incompetence, and strengthens the Sanders camp’s position that the establishment is out to get them which could bolster his support if they feel they have to fight even harder for victory.

Interestingly, there’ve been reports that the company involved in creating the app (which is only one part of the problem) received funding from Pete Buttigieg’s campaign and the CEO of said company has had tweets from last year dig up where they celebrate his running announcement. Easy to shout conspiracy but that it particular seems a clear conflict of interests.

Nominating anyone but Sanders will see them throw away the election anyway, and even then it’s far from certain even he can topple Trump’s momentum.


I think Sanders is (at least perceived as) too "leftie" to gain enough traction.

Good Lord! Whatever is it?
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Oh dear on 12:14 - Feb 4 with 1042 viewsBackToRussia

Oh dear on 12:04 - Feb 4 by Guthrum

I think Sanders is (at least perceived as) too "leftie" to gain enough traction.


Picking a centrist worked really well last time. Biden is an even poorer pick than Clinton was too.

Let's be honest, the Dems lost before they've started, but who would be able to beat Trump? People are so polarised and angry now, that only demagogues like Trump get in. See Boris, see the Brazilian president, ... was Macron the last time a centrist won a major national election? He's doing well.

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Oh dear on 12:21 - Feb 4 with 1018 viewsGuthrum

Oh dear on 12:14 - Feb 4 by BackToRussia

Picking a centrist worked really well last time. Biden is an even poorer pick than Clinton was too.

Let's be honest, the Dems lost before they've started, but who would be able to beat Trump? People are so polarised and angry now, that only demagogues like Trump get in. See Boris, see the Brazilian president, ... was Macron the last time a centrist won a major national election? He's doing well.


Clinton was fatally hampered by her surname. I agree that Biden is not strong, either. Not sure anybody in that field of candidates is. Buttgieg sounds reasonable, but many will reject him purely for his sexuality.

Even with Macron, he was a populist centrist, leading a breakthrough new (i.e. not establishment) party.

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Oh dear on 12:27 - Feb 4 with 1001 viewsEdwardStone

Oh dear on 12:04 - Feb 4 by Guthrum

I think Sanders is (at least perceived as) too "leftie" to gain enough traction.


Sanders seems like a Corbyn tribute act

A decent, principled bloke but no leadership qualities and looks utterly out of his depth, simply the wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time

I fear that Big Orange will simply stroll through to a thumping win
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Oh dear on 12:29 - Feb 4 with 987 viewsGuthrum

Oh dear on 12:27 - Feb 4 by EdwardStone

Sanders seems like a Corbyn tribute act

A decent, principled bloke but no leadership qualities and looks utterly out of his depth, simply the wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time

I fear that Big Orange will simply stroll through to a thumping win


He's also had a health scare, which will be picked upon by his opponents.

Good Lord! Whatever is it?
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Oh dear on 12:39 - Feb 4 with 964 viewsBackToRussia

Oh dear on 12:21 - Feb 4 by Guthrum

Clinton was fatally hampered by her surname. I agree that Biden is not strong, either. Not sure anybody in that field of candidates is. Buttgieg sounds reasonable, but many will reject him purely for his sexuality.

Even with Macron, he was a populist centrist, leading a breakthrough new (i.e. not establishment) party.


So it wouldn't really matter how well last night went. None of the candidates appeal in their own right. You have to ask why among of a field about 10 centrist and left wingers, none of them are popular enough to win an election. Let's be real, right wing ultra capitalist, ultra xenophobic, politics, has won the day. Why would the ultra wealthy, who control the media, the banks, etc, want to give any credence to someone who is going to make it harder for them to earn? The internal logic of capitalism is more at play here than the incompetence of a political party. After all, Trump did not come from the Republican party. He is the antipolitican. Putting up any politician against that will lose.

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Oh dear on 12:50 - Feb 4 with 943 viewsGuthrum

Oh dear on 12:39 - Feb 4 by BackToRussia

So it wouldn't really matter how well last night went. None of the candidates appeal in their own right. You have to ask why among of a field about 10 centrist and left wingers, none of them are popular enough to win an election. Let's be real, right wing ultra capitalist, ultra xenophobic, politics, has won the day. Why would the ultra wealthy, who control the media, the banks, etc, want to give any credence to someone who is going to make it harder for them to earn? The internal logic of capitalism is more at play here than the incompetence of a political party. After all, Trump did not come from the Republican party. He is the antipolitican. Putting up any politician against that will lose.


I was rather hoping the Dems would produce a populist of their own, such as Obama was.

Things like last night risk blowing what little chance they have. Bear in mind it wouldn't take a huge shift in very many places (down to individual counties) to have tilted the 2016 election against Trump.

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Oh dear on 13:01 - Feb 4 with 919 viewsLankHenners

Oh dear on 12:04 - Feb 4 by Guthrum

I think Sanders is (at least perceived as) too "leftie" to gain enough traction.


He’s anti-establishment for sure, but his ability to generate a grass roots movement of support is rather remarkable, his campaign funding having the most number of donations as he refuses to take funds from millionaires and billionaires.

Fundamentally, the democrats need to get republican voters to switch their vote in November. Sanders offers the best chance to get traditional working class republicans over to his side, even though he is disliked by the better well off, who would have to put their feelings towards Sanders aside to vote Democrat against Trump, like further left voters had to do with Clinton (though her total lack of appeal did her in anyway).

The comparisons with Corbyn are pretty weak - he is pretty much what people thought Corbyn was. He stands for similar things but has actually built up the support from the ground which Corbyn failed to do, plus doesn’t have the same sort of baggage attached to him.

As has been mentioned, Trump’s nationalism is probably too strong whatever but every other candidate is a weak one when put into a head v head against him. Sanders will push Trump harder and Trump has less mud to sling at him.

In a normal world, Sanders’ Medicare for All plan should make him a shoe-in, but there you go.

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Oh dear on 13:02 - Feb 4 with 914 viewsBackToRussia

Oh dear on 12:50 - Feb 4 by Guthrum

I was rather hoping the Dems would produce a populist of their own, such as Obama was.

Things like last night risk blowing what little chance they have. Bear in mind it wouldn't take a huge shift in very many places (down to individual counties) to have tilted the 2016 election against Trump.


I just think there's little pathway for someone like Obama now. He rode a wave but what's the in for someone different now? Socialism doesn't sell, they kind of ruined their shot at "the first woman president" thing. Unfortunately moderate politics is largely discredited, and the main thing that people respond to at the moment is xenophobia, nationalism, militarism.

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Oh dear on 13:19 - Feb 4 with 861 viewshampstead_blue

Oh dear on 11:25 - Feb 4 by Darth_Koont

Depressingly, it does mirror the UK's obsession with personality and judging politicians by how they play the game of politics. And a blindness to actual policy and ideas.

The US system is deeply flawed too and in different ways, but always thought they took their politics more seriously overall.


I think you'll find we did both.
The UK electorate rejected both the Labour leader, his vacuous leadership, personality and questionable/gutter ethics and morals and then we rejected their policies.

The one thing I agree on is that their system is flawed. Complicated to the layperson.

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Oh dear on 13:41 - Feb 4 with 808 viewsBluesquid

Interesting regarding the app that has delayed Iowa's voting results.

The top donor of the company that developed the app also donated to Pete Buttigieg's campaign.

Also -

[Post edited 4 Feb 13:45]
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Oh dear on 14:16 - Feb 4 with 753 viewsBluesquid

DNC stitching up Sanders again...


[Post edited 4 Feb 14:17]
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Oh dear on 14:20 - Feb 4 with 733 viewsDarth_Koont

Oh dear on 13:19 - Feb 4 by hampstead_blue

I think you'll find we did both.
The UK electorate rejected both the Labour leader, his vacuous leadership, personality and questionable/gutter ethics and morals and then we rejected their policies.

The one thing I agree on is that their system is flawed. Complicated to the layperson.


Well, we voted in a party and leader who are worse on ALL those scores. And gave them a majority.

So struggling to see your point.
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